2022 our 25th year online!

Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 3 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments.
Over 100,000 members from around the world.
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

Shop our online store for music lovers
SEARCH
Piano Forums & Piano World
(ad)
Pianoteq
Steinway Spiro Layering
(ad)
Piano Life Saver - Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
(ad)
Wessell Nickel & Gross
PianoForAll
Who's Online Now
64 members (36251, bob@pei, bobrunyan, Andrew E., accordeur, BravoRomeo, Boboulus, 14 invisible), 663 guests, and 320 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
(ad)
Estonia Pianos
Estonia Pianos
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Hop To
Page 1 of 2 1 2
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 36
J
jenly Offline OP
Full Member
OP Offline
Full Member
J
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 36
Good morning. For my birthday my husband surprised me with a new Yamaha AvantGrand N1X to replace my old Roland (which needed some repairs and we could not find a tech to do it for love or money). Anyway, the playing experience on the Yamaha is vastly improved EXCEPT the piano is rather tall and the score sits on top. My son, who also plays, did not notice this when shopping because he is tall but I am only 5'3" and shrinking every day. The adjustable bench helps a little but there is only so high I can go before I can't reach the pedals. The white keys start at 29 inches and there are 11 inches from the white keys to the top of the piano where the music rests. So even with the bench as high as it can go my head is constantly tilted back and I am getting neck and shoulder pain.
I am wondering if anyone has ever heard of this problem and if something can be done.
Thank you.

Last edited by jenly; 08/13/21 12:04 PM. Reason: Gramnar
Joined: Aug 2016
Posts: 6,502
G
6000 Post Club Member
Offline
6000 Post Club Member
G
Joined: Aug 2016
Posts: 6,502
Originally Posted by jenly
Good morning. For my birthday my husband surprised me with a new Yamaha AvantGrand N1X to replace my old Roland (which needed some repairs and we could not find a tech to do it for love or money). Anyway, the playing experience on the Yamaha is vastly improved EXCEPT the piano is rather tall and the score sits on top. My son, who also plays, did not notice this when shopping because he is tall but I am only 5'3" and shrinking every day. The adjustable bench helps a little but there is only so high I can go before I can't reach the pedals. The white keys start at 29 inches and there are 11 inches from the white keys to the top of the piano where the music rests. So even with the bench as high as it can go my head is constantly tilted back and I am getting neck and shoulder pain.
I am wondering if anyone has ever heard of this problem and if something can be done.
Thank you.


I dealt with the same thing for my young daughter, for whom the hybrids' music desks are too high/back.

There's always the expensive "Grand Stand" which I was generously gifted, and we ended up using for several years.

I also tried fashioning a makeshift music holder from some picture frames from Amazon, which worked well enough, if you like to think creatively.

None of these are great for the aesthetics of the piano, but hey, they make playing easier smile


Bosendorfer D214VC ENPro, Kawai NV-10
Past: Yamaha P-85, P-105, CP50, Kawai MP11
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 2,554
2000 Post Club Member
Offline
2000 Post Club Member
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 2,554
The head tilt problem has probably more to do with unsuitable (multi-focal) glasses than with the height of the music rest. Try using the correct (reading) glasses and looking up instead of tilting the head backwards for reading music.


Yamaha P-515
Joined: Feb 2021
Posts: 21
D
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
D
Joined: Feb 2021
Posts: 21
Hey Jenly, congrats on Your new Piano.

You may also consider pedal extenders https://www.amazon.com/Soarun-Adjustable-Piano-Pedal-Extender/dp/B076XQPYTW

Joined: May 2007
Posts: 2,022
M
2000 Post Club Member
Offline
2000 Post Club Member
M
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 2,022
I was also surprised when I finally bought a grand and had to adjust to the position of the music rest. With digitals, the music is right above your hands, so that makes the transition even more noticeable. You don't mention if you wear glasses. If so, you might benefit from occupational lenses in your glasses. I can't wear my normal progressive lenses that I wear for distance when I play, it makes me tip my head back too far. I wear a pair that had made for working on the computer, they focus at the right distance to read music without tipping my head back.


Yamaha P90, Kawai GL-10
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 6,925
C
6000 Post Club Member
Offline
6000 Post Club Member
C
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 6,925
Originally Posted by JoeT
The head tilt problem has probably more to do with unsuitable (multi-focal) glasses than with the height of the music rest. Try using the correct (reading) glasses and looking up instead of tilting the head backwards for reading music.

+1 ! Especially if you are middle-age or older.

If you are using bi-focal glasses, measure the distance from your eyes to the score (sitting at the piano), and get a set of "single-vision" glasses made, _corrected for that distance_. (That correction may be different from "reading glasses".)

Then, you just have to remind your body that you _don't_ have to crane your neck, to see the music clearly. (I've had a _lot_ of neck pain over many years, because I didn't do that early in my working life.)

The usual suggestion for "piano posture" is that your forearms should be horizontal, when you're sitting at the piano, and your fingers are resting on the keys.

. . . that rule determines how high the bench (or stool) should be,
. . . for each person.

If you can't reach the pedals, with the bench at that height, "pedal extenders" (as previously mentioned) are available.

I found that a "drum throne" was more comfortable than a bench, but that's a personal opinion.

See the "GrandStand", mentioned above. Expensive for a bent piece of Lucite, but if it solves the problem . . .

Certainly, one could be constructed from wood or plastic. Making it match the AG's finish quality -- that won't be easy.

Last edited by Charles Cohen; 08/13/21 01:32 PM.

. Charles
---------------------------
PX-350 / microKorg XL+ / Pianoteq
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 14,439
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 14,439
Got an N1X as a gift? Wonderful! smile
Originally Posted by jenly
Good morning. For my birthday my husband surprised me with a new Yamaha AvantGrand N1X to replace my old Roland.

Originally Posted by jenly
... my head is constantly tilted back and I am getting neck and shoulder pain.
I have the opposite problem. Head back is my pain-free position. Head down for more than a few minutes causes a lot of pain.

I like Gombessa's suggestion. That Grand Stand might do the trick. It's a shame that two square feet of plastic costs $150. But if it works ...

Joined: Nov 2016
Posts: 3,213
C
3000 Post Club Member
Offline
3000 Post Club Member
C
Joined: Nov 2016
Posts: 3,213
As a curiosity there was also a music rest product from Yamaha: https://jp.yamaha.com/products/musical_instruments/pianos/accessories/music_rests/pgf2/index.html

[Linked Image]

Discontinued now, I guess and of course compatibility with an N1X could be a mystery.

Anyway, it shows up e.g. on eBay: https://www.ebay.com/itm/153973800286

Joined: Jun 2020
Posts: 236
N
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
N
Joined: Jun 2020
Posts: 236
Could you attach this stand to the folding music rest with Velcro? Maybe there's a worry about sticky substances on your piano's nice finish, but perhaps it's not bad.

https://www.amazon.com/Portfolio-Ho...usic+rest&qid=1628883884&sr=8-40

Joined: Aug 2016
Posts: 6,502
G
6000 Post Club Member
Offline
6000 Post Club Member
G
Joined: Aug 2016
Posts: 6,502
That Yamaha music rest looks really great!

No Expectations, I did something similar with my first jerry-rig solution--fashioned a photo frame holder to go between the lid and the fallboard.

With all of these solutions, you just gotta be very careful about accidentally moving the fallboard and causing everything to crash down.


Bosendorfer D214VC ENPro, Kawai NV-10
Past: Yamaha P-85, P-105, CP50, Kawai MP11
Joined: Sep 2018
Posts: 287
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
Joined: Sep 2018
Posts: 287
https://docs.google.com/document/d/...jEzUIP-0dI6GWFeJI-IxqVNnLZ89_LVlP0Y3/pub
I have made a couple of lowered music desks, one being illustrated in the link. The other, which I do not have a photograph was finished in black to match the piano.

Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 14,439
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 14,439
That Yamaha item: that 20000 yen translates to $200. Ouch.
But I like the $28 price of that Amazon item.

Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 36
J
jenly Offline OP
Full Member
OP Offline
Full Member
J
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 36
Thank you all so much for the suggestions, which I am certainly going to look into. But I have a question about the correct height for the eyes. When I sit at the correct height and distance, with my head in a neutral position, my eyesight centers on the middle of my music book, with the top of the book being almost the same height as the top of my head. In order to see the top half of the page, I need to either lift my chin or raise my eyes. Are you suggesting the eyes should be looking up? This feels so unnatural to me.
Thanks again.

Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 2,887
2000 Post Club Member
Offline
2000 Post Club Member
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 2,887
Originally Posted by Gombessa
Originally Posted by jenly
Good morning. For my birthday my husband surprised me with a new Yamaha AvantGrand N1X to replace my old Roland (which needed some repairs and we could not find a tech to do it for love or money). Anyway, the playing experience on the Yamaha is vastly improved EXCEPT the piano is rather tall and the score sits on top. My son, who also plays, did not notice this when shopping because he is tall but I am only 5'3" and shrinking every day. The adjustable bench helps a little but there is only so high I can go before I can't reach the pedals. The white keys start at 29 inches and there are 11 inches from the white keys to the top of the piano where the music rests. So even with the bench as high as it can go my head is constantly tilted back and I am getting neck and shoulder pain.
I am wondering if anyone has ever heard of this problem and if something can be done.
Thank you.


I dealt with the same thing for my young daughter, for whom the hybrids' music desks are too high/back.

There's always the expensive "Grand Stand" which I was generously gifted, and we ended up using for several years.

I also tried fashioning a makeshift music holder from some picture frames from Amazon, which worked well enough, if you like to think creatively.

None of these are great for the aesthetics of the piano, but hey, they make playing easier smile

The Grandstand looks ideal: so much nicer than a periscope or virtual reality goggles projecting a video feed from behind the piano.

Sometimes something is worth the extra money because it's hard to find a better solution.

Last edited by Doug M.; 08/14/21 05:24 AM.

Instruments: Current - Kawai MP7SE; Past - Kawai MP7, Yamaha PSR7000
Software: Sibelius 7; Neuratron Photoscore Pro 8
Stand: K&M 18953 Table-style Stage Piano Stand
Joined: Feb 2021
Posts: 1,236
H
1000 Post Club Member
Offline
1000 Post Club Member
H
Joined: Feb 2021
Posts: 1,236
Hello,

Originally Posted by jenly
I have a question about the correct height for the eyes. When I sit at the correct height and distance, with my head in a neutral position, my eyesight centers on the middle of my music book, with the top of the book being almost the same height as the top of my head. In order to see the top half of the page, I need to either lift my chin or raise my eyes. Are you suggesting the eyes should be looking up? This feels so unnatural to me.
Thanks again.

@jenly, After reading your 'heartbreak' yesterday, I already thought about this for a bit. This is what I came up with:

-> For ergonomical computer use, it is generally recommended to have the top of the screen at approximately eye level.

-> Therefore, I'd say that to have the top of your sheet music at about eye level, would be a comfortable position.

-> With this, take into consideration that the music rest usually tilts backward a bit, and your head probably tilts downward ('nods') a bit; the more so because your gaze alternates between keys and hands and the sheet music.

Hope this helps you find the right position.

Cheers and happy ergonomics,

HZ

Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 36
J
jenly Offline OP
Full Member
OP Offline
Full Member
J
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 36
Thank you. I think it is really possible that the rack is simply too high for a shorter person with shorter arms and legs. I am going to get the grandstand and maybe even a pedal assist if a block doesn't work.

I also feel this is a cautionary tale. This avant grand is much publicized and no doubt better in every way than my old Roland i5. We live in nyc and my husband went to a local dealer and he probably did not negotiate and succumbed to pressure tactics and left a large deposit that became a final sale after a few days. My fault was that I did not go to the store to check it out because I was sure it was so much better I would love it. I play the steinway grands at my music school and they are not a problem. It just never occurred to me that the cabinetry design--it is still digital after all and it is just cabinetry--would be a problem. Every review on youtube shows the player essentially towering over the rack--even yamaha's own marketing material. But there is no substitute for checking it out yourself, which I already knew. At the end of the day my laziness propelled me towards a careless and expensive mistake.

Joined: Dec 2014
Posts: 30
J
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
J
Joined: Dec 2014
Posts: 30
Now a days, there are a lot of options for monitor arms, microphone arms, light stands that you an attach a music sheet holder to. They usually have a VESA mount, so all you need to do is drill 4 holes to the holder.
You have options that sit on top piano, clamp to the piano (if you can figure out how not to scratch the nice finish on your N1X), mount to the wall, tall floor stand, etc. It’s also very adjustable, so you can easily position the holder different players, and even swing it out of the way.
For example, a manhasset 5102 attached to a cheap wall mount arm.

Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 6,925
C
6000 Post Club Member
Offline
6000 Post Club Member
C
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 6,925
Originally Posted by jenly
. . . At the end of the day my laziness propelled me towards a careless and expensive mistake.

Don't beat yourself (or your husband) up too much, over this:

. . . It's a glitch, not a disaster.

You can fix it, at reasonable cost, in a reasonable timeframe. I don't think the AG was a "mistake" -- I suspect that it will be nicer than the old Roland, once you've got it set up properly.<g>

I never thought of a moveable arm, attached to the rear of the AG, coming over the front and holding a music rack -- that's a neat solution, if the arm is steady. Please let us know how it all turns out.


. Charles
---------------------------
PX-350 / microKorg XL+ / Pianoteq
Joined: Dec 2014
Posts: 30
J
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
J
Joined: Dec 2014
Posts: 30
The monitor arms are rock steady. They are meant to hold 20 lb monitors after all. And there are a ton of options, ranging from stacking 2 music racks on top of each other for a giant wall of music, to having an iPad or laptop holder on the side, an extra monitor for your VST, clamping a piano lamp to the arm, or even a microphone mount.

I use mine on a VPC1 because I find the built in music holder too far back, and too small. I attach it to the piano stand (I use a drum rack, so the arm just clamps to the post). If you’d like, I can take a picture when I get home.

Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 6,551
6000 Post Club Member
Offline
6000 Post Club Member
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 6,551
I just had a thought. I'm sure someone has created a music stand adaptor to be mounted on a microphone stand.

With such a contraption, the music stand could be positioned at any height and the base of the mic stand would be away from the piano.

Just a thought.


Yamaha AvantGrand N3 | Roland RD 2000 | Sennheiser HD 598 headphones
Page 1 of 2 1 2

Moderated by  Piano World 

Link Copied to Clipboard
(ad)
Best of Piano Buyer
Piano Buyer - Read the Articles, Explore the website
(ad)
PianoDisc

PianoDisc
(ad)
Faust Harrison Pianos
Faust Harrison 100+ Steinway pianos
(ad)
Mason & Hamlin Pianos
New Topics - Multiple Forums
Tuning Yamaha CP-70
by MSnow - 05/23/22 09:38 PM
Recording myself for immediate playback
by GregR - 05/23/22 07:57 PM
Yamaha sound - am I being fair?
by GregR - 05/23/22 07:46 PM
Deposit placed on new Sauter
by pianomanatee - 05/23/22 07:25 PM
Kawai GL30 or Boston 156?
by Emeraldwynn - 05/23/22 05:06 PM
Download Sheet Music
Virtual Sheet Music - Classical Sheet Music Downloads
Forum Statistics
Forums43
Topics213,200
Posts3,193,992
Members105,349
Most Online15,252
Mar 21st, 2010
Please Support Our Advertisers

Faust Harrison 100+ Steinways

Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver

 Best of Piano Buyer

PianoTeq Bechstein
Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers

Virtual Sheet Music - Classical Sheet Music Downloads



 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
| Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter | MapleStreetMusicShop.com - Our store in Cornish Maine


© copyright 1997 - 2022 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5