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I think it is interesting that Kawai, and Roland allow you to add hammer delay in their piano setup apps.

And Roland by default has a delay at 1 and not off.


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I feel I should say something on topic... I would also consider a VPC2 with matching stand/pedals similar to the ES8 and a flat top. Putting a MODX6 or similar on top would be interesting. It would great if Kawai made sure the velocity curves, channel mapping etc worked well as per e.g. this thread.

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Originally Posted by Kawai James
Originally Posted by Abdol
There are folks here that claim they can detect under 1ms delay and you want bluetooth?

Fixed. wink

I doubt that anyone claimed that, even based on this vague description of the claim. Detect a delay in what, compared to what?

In the past I have highlighted a scientific study on tactile-auditory feedback delay in a percussion midi instrument ( https://www.researchgate.net/public...nal_Percussionists_and_Amateur_Musicians ). In that study a fixed latency between action and sound of 20 ms was perceived as lower quality as compared to 0 ms, but 10 ms was not. However when 3 ms jitter was added around 10 ms delay, this was perceived as lower quality.

This demonstrates humans being sensitive to delays over time scales that are relevant in the context of current state of the art in digital piano hardware and that even small amounts of jitter can lead to judgements of lower quality. This is particularly relevant for systems such as the VPC that rely on a VST, usually running on systems that can be notoriously bad in terms of jitter.

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Originally Posted by Purdy
I think it is interesting that Kawai, and Roland allow you to add hammer delay in their piano setup apps.

And Roland by default has a delay at 1 and not off.

I have a silent piano (Kawai K300 ATX3) and the digital part has lower latency than the acoustic part (comparing sound output when playing), although this depends on the key velocity. The setting you mention is probably used to adjust the latency to match it to someones experience with an acoustic.

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if you wish for a Grand Feel (not compact) action in the VPC, Kawai will update the MP11, not the VPC
Kawai sticks with RM3 because it's just fine. Probably cheaper to produce, lighter, shorter, what you want in a midi controller - and from what I heard, just as good if not better
if the VPC2 comes out it will have GFC for sure

Last edited by Nigo; 06/17/21 02:00 AM.
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Originally Posted by Nigo
if you wish for a Grand Feel (not compact) action in the VPC, Kawai will update the MP11, not the VPC
Kawai sticks with RM3 because it's just fine. Probably cheaper to produce, lighter, shorter, what you want in a midi controller - and from what I heard, just as good if not better
if the VPC2 comes out it will have GFC for sure

There is no reason why Kawai couldn't differentiate the VPC line eg VPC-G for gig, and VPC-HS for home/studio. That way, you could design a grand feel 3 action into the HS version (along with built-in PC/Mac etc), whereas, the G version would be built for light weight with flat top and tweets on the current action or GFC action. The VPC1 is pretty heavy for gigging, so a composites version would be good - - to offset the weight of the action mechanism.

All possible if the market exists for such a concept and the consumer is willing to pay more for the value added. Not sure that market exists. Why didn't I buy one, as I could have? The value for money with the MP7SE is higher overall, especially for gigging.


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Originally Posted by pianogabe
Originally Posted by Kawai James
Originally Posted by Abdol
There are folks here that claim they can detect under 1ms delay and you want bluetooth?

Fixed. wink

I doubt that anyone claimed that, even based on this vague description of the claim. Detect a delay in what, compared to what?

In the past I have highlighted a scientific study on tactile-auditory feedback delay in a percussion midi instrument ( https://www.researchgate.net/public...nal_Percussionists_and_Amateur_Musicians ). In that study a fixed latency between action and sound of 20 ms was perceived as lower quality as compared to 0 ms, but 10 ms was not. However when 3 ms jitter was added around 10 ms delay, this was perceived as lower quality.

This demonstrates humans being sensitive to delays over time scales that are relevant in the context of current state of the art in digital piano hardware and that even small amounts of jitter can lead to judgements of lower quality. This is particularly relevant for systems such as the VPC that rely on a VST, usually running on systems that can be notoriously bad in terms of jitter.

You should ask this question from the person who originally posted this on the forum! He discussed that he detects 1ms delay and therefore VSTs aren't good. Knowing this and the fact that some people on this forum have supernatural powers, anything Bluetooth isn't going to please them.

You can always buy a Bluetooth midi dongle. Yamaha manufactures one.


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Originally Posted by Abdol
You should ask this question from the person who originally posted this on the forum!

Well, again, I doubt that anyone claimed that, so that implies that I don't know anyone who claimed it.

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Originally Posted by Kawai James
Originally Posted by Johnny English
I know it's not inherent in Hybrid actions because the older Kawai hybrids we have at school don't do it.

"older Kawai hybrids"?

Do you mean the NV10/NV5?
They're not so old...

Kind regards,
James
x
I’m not sure if it’s the exact model, but it looks a lot like the old CE220. That action is essentially ideal. If. Had to nitpick, I wouldn’t mind it being a little lighter. Nonetheless, when those keys return to their resting position, they just rest. No extra little hop. They are much easier to time repetitions that way. Please make this happen. It might actually be even cheaper Kawai to make. I believe it is simpler construction.

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Originally Posted by Abdol
Originally Posted by pianogabe
Originally Posted by Kawai James
Originally Posted by Abdol
There are folks here that claim they can detect under 1ms delay and you want bluetooth?

Fixed. wink

I doubt that anyone claimed that, even based on this vague description of the claim. Detect a delay in what, compared to what?

In the past I have highlighted a scientific study on tactile-auditory feedback delay in a percussion midi instrument ( https://www.researchgate.net/public...nal_Percussionists_and_Amateur_Musicians ). In that study a fixed latency between action and sound of 20 ms was perceived as lower quality as compared to 0 ms, but 10 ms was not. However when 3 ms jitter was added around 10 ms delay, this was perceived as lower quality.

This demonstrates humans being sensitive to delays over time scales that are relevant in the context of current state of the art in digital piano hardware and that even small amounts of jitter can lead to judgements of lower quality. This is particularly relevant for systems such as the VPC that rely on a VST, usually running on systems that can be notoriously bad in terms of jitter.

You should ask this question from the person who originally posted this on the forum! He discussed that he detects 1ms delay and therefore VSTs aren't good. Knowing this and the fact that some people on this forum have supernatural powers, anything Bluetooth isn't going to please them.

You can always buy a Bluetooth midi dongle. Yamaha manufactures one.

Interesting that studies show the ability to perceive latency of 13 ms, as that's the same time-interval scientists measured as the shortest duration of time that was required for humans to identify pictures of people's faces:
https://news.mit.edu/2014/in-the-blink-of-an-eye-0116

Quote
neuroscientists from MIT has found that the human brain can process entire images that the eye sees for as little as 13 milliseconds — the first evidence of such rapid processing speed.

That speed is far faster than the 100 milliseconds suggested by previous studies.

I think that the guy saying he can detect latency of 1ms would need to be some sort of mutant to be capable of that (or be detecting it using machines).


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Doug: the MIT study refers to processing time, not latency or jitter. That's an important difference.

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I remember that one of teacher discover that there where some latency when I put my DP local control off and the PC send back MIDI events through a USB-MIDI adapter. I suppose the induced latency to be between 2 and 3ms.


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Originally Posted by Frédéric L
...some latency when I put my DP local control off and the PC send back MIDI events through a USB-MIDI adapter.

With a Yamaha UX16 and without disabling local control I get sort of a phasing effect only, but not a noticeable repeat of the note.

I do get a "double strike" with the built-in sound and a VST. That's then several milliseconds.

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Hm. Summer Namm 2021 has passed and nothing has happened.

The VPC1 is available (at Thomann) since February 2013. If the VPC1 would not sell good enough it would have been already taken off the market. This tells me that it IS selling good enough by the standards of Kawai to justify having such a product in their portfolio. If it wasn't successful enough, Kawai would have phased it out by now. But they did not.

The VPC1 is Kawai's only product which is still using the RM3 Grand II action (please correct me if I am wrong). By the sheer number of products Kawai has in their lineup, it makes absolutely ZERO sense to continue producing this action as (just my guess but it would make common sense) they are using different production lines / production stations for all of their different actions (please correct me if I am wrong). These production stations get old by the time and they also cover floor space in the Kawai factory. So sooner or later Kawai would have to renew the production stations for the RM3 Grand II (which would be odd to do this for only ONE product in their lineup) or discontinue the product in it's current form.

As there seems to be a market for such a product and Kawai seems to make at least SOME money from it, it would make sense for them to release a successor for a product which is contributing positively to their profit.

Does this make sense to you?

So ... if all this makes sense, why are we not seeing a successor to the VPC1? What's the reason behind it? I am sure EVERYONE who once bought a VPC1 would buy its successor, too. So why are we not seeing a VPC2?

@James: Can you enlighten us with your wisdom or at least with a hint in these dark times, please?

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Why should I buy a VPC2 if my VPC1 works flawlessly, as it did from day one?


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Because you would be thrilled to play on an even better action? Well, maybe not. Of course I can fully understand that you may say you will in your whole life never buy again a thing similar to this.

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Vpc2 (if ever...) will use the chassis of mp12 like vpc1 used the chassis of mp10 (I presume, given the similarity in dimension and style). KJ can confirm or deny this, but I assume will he not enter this dicussion...

Thus, vpc2 will not be relesed anytimw before a couple of years after mp12 (otherwise some will opt foe vpc2 and not spend the additional money on mp12, cannibilizing htier profit...).

My 2 cents: do not expect vpc2 anytime soon (and I so hope to be wrong!)

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VPC2 will (no if there) be released ....... many , many years from now!

MP 12 wil NOT be released in 2021 or 2022, but later! With longer keys, thus deeper case!

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Yes, this makes sense ...
Originally Posted by Björn from Earth
The VPC1 is Kawai's only product which is still using the RM3 Grand II action (please correct me if I am wrong). By the sheer number of products Kawai has in their lineup, it makes absolutely ZERO sense to continue producing this action as (just my guess but it would make common sense) they are using different production lines / production stations for all of their different actions (please correct me if I am wrong). These production stations get old by the time and they also cover floor space in the Kawai factory. So sooner or later Kawai would have to renew the production stations for the RM3 Grand II (which would be odd to do this for only ONE product in their lineup) or discontinue the product in it's current form.
But let's not forget that this is a Japanese manufacturer. They are masters of manufacturing efficiency. It might be that the VPC action can be built on the same line as the other actions.

We only began to learn about design-for-manufacturing in the 1980s. They've been experts for far longer.

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This World is full of trash due to planned obsolescence products. Kawai got a wonderful controller right at first attempt (note I write "right", not "perfect") so it keeps selling 8 years later. And we keep enjoying it.

I don't mind it uses one or another action. I mind it works for me nicely on its intended function. Why should we ask for a replacement so insistently?

Have you seen the consequences of humankind on this planet (heath waves, flash floodings, sea level increase, ...)?. Could we help a little by keeping for some more years our gear, and letting manufacturers to extend market life for their good products?. Just a thought.


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