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#3131443 06/25/21 04:38 PM
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Ok so here's the deal. First off, I am an utter newbie. Almost on a whim I decided that I needed some kind of fulfillment out of life and it needed to be based on 88 keys. Round about 6 weeks ago I purchased a Yamaha P45 and have been - more or less - completely happy with it. Especially with the headphones. At the beginning I really couldn't believe that the sound was only via my ears. But I had nothing to compare it to. A very happy chappy. So me being me. I have tried to make an effort and for the past 6 weeks average min 1 hr per day practice - which of course means nothing! What it does mean though is that I have quickly seen the possible advantages of having sonething a little 'better' and seeing that I will turn 50 in December have decided to treat myself a little.

In two weeks I have an appointment booked with a piano store and (with somewhat trepidation) am looking forward to it.

Due to covid and chip shortages (see Japan) we can be lucky to see any piano at the moment but at least this vendor has the clp-745, ca-59 and lx-705 available. Unfortunately they don't have the gp-310, which although sceptical initially, I would love to give a go at. I would prefer more but as a novice cannot see the sense behind buying too much.

I know that there have been a multitude of similar threads but thought that I would simply ask your opinion before my somewhat overwhelming appointment. The store is of course a fixed accoustical environment and difficult to judge.

But to be honest, how relative is the wattage / power output while being at home, in an average apartment (flat)?

I use my P45 almost solely in the bedroom and don't wish anytime soon to force my neighbours to partake in my passion.

Long story short. Does this mean in the showroom that my personal perception of the keys is more important than possible voice? I think that almost anything in this price range is more than adequate but have no comparable baseline to my simple P45...

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You probably want to post this question in the Digital Piano forum:
http://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthreads.php/forums/6/1.html

(Although some here might have advice for you)

Good luck -- and happy (6 months away) birthday! smile


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Hi, and welcome! As ShiroKuro said, you well get more opinions in the digital forum. But from my perspective, the important thing is to find the instrument you enjoy the most. Playing all of them and deciding what you prefer, both in terms of sound and feel, will be more important than what anyone else opines. Since it sounds like you will probably do some ‘silent practice,’ definitely make sure you play with the headphones on and off, to get a sense of the headphone experience on all the instruments. Good luck!

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Hi and welcome to the forum. FYI I started playing at 63.5yo, and two years in realized this is my calling. It has changed my life in just incredible ways.. Anyway

I have a really nice Kawai digital keyboard, that I'll always cherish and play mostly daily, still. There are a lot of options, of course, in digitals. 99.9% of the time when on the digi I am tuned in with headphones. I have played a few Yamaha's, and Roland's as well. Think the wattage in my ES8 is 10W. It's OK through the in board speakers, much better through the headphones. I did connect a JBL monitor for output, but thats kinda just collecting trinkets. You certainly need to play them and see what you like, as some really cool cool digis out there.

I wish, like you, I started at 50yo. But I'm lucky to be in awesome playing condition! You will most likely get acousticitis at some point and that is a whole other realm. But I love hammering out some of my compositions in say Clavi or Epiano mode on the keyboard after playing a session on the acoustic. Good luck and have fun. Yeah probably post over on the digi forum for more advice..

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. . . I think that almost anything in this price range is more than adequate . . .

You've answered your question, right there.<g>

Buy whichever you like best.


. Charles
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Originally Posted by ShiroKuro
You probably want to post this question in the Digital Piano forum:
http://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthreads.php/forums/6/1.html

(Although some here might have advice for you)

Good luck -- and happy (6 months away) birthday! smile

Cool, thank-you! You're right of course, silly me for not watching where I was posting. Stupid noob mistake. 🙄

Anyway because I already have some replies, I'll leave the post here for the moment. Cheers!

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quote=Sgisela]Hi, and welcome! As ShiroKuro said, you well get more opinions in the digital forum. But from my perspective, the important thing is to find the instrument you enjoy the most. Playing all of them and deciding what you prefer, both in terms of sound and feel, will be more important than what anyone else opines. Since it sounds like you will probably do some ‘silent practice,’ definitely make sure you play with the headphones on and off, to get a sense of the headphone experience on all the instruments. Good luck![/quote]

Thanks, seems like good solid advice. I'm a bit afraid of making a fool of myself in the store and really have a limited repertoire of what to play to get an impression. But I do know my P45 and it's shortcomings. For sure, headphones are key and I suppose that to have a better impression of the speaker sound I could ask the salesperson to play a tune or two

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Originally Posted by Xam
Hi and welcome to the forum. FYI I started playing at 63.5yo, and two years in realized this is my calling. It has changed my life in just incredible ways.. Anyway

I have a really nice Kawai digital keyboard, that I'll always cherish and play mostly daily, still. There are a lot of options, of course, in digitals. 99.9% of the time when on the digi I am tuned in with headphones. I have played a few Yamaha's, and Roland's as well. Think the wattage in my ES8 is 10W. It's OK through the in board speakers, much better through the headphones. I did connect a JBL monitor for output, but thats kinda just collecting trinkets. You certainly need to play them and see what you like, as some really cool cool digis out there.

I wish, like you, I started at 50yo. But I'm lucky to be in awesome playing condition! You will most likely get acousticitis at some point and that is a whole other realm. But I love hammering out some of my compositions in say Clavi or Epiano mode on the keyboard after playing a session on the acoustic. Good luck and have fun. Yeah probably post over on the digi forum for more advice..

Thank-you so much! And here's me, wishing that I had started 10-15 yrs ago. At the moment I manage to average at least an hour's practice per day but progress is painfully slow. I wish I could see myself in a year or two to see if I really do get better 🤔

Silly question, what is acousticitis? Is that the desire to have a fully blown acoustic piano? It's something I would dearly love to have in a few years perhaps, but not until my playing is advanced enough to not bring the cats out wailing.

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Originally Posted by Charles Cohen
Quote
. . . I think that almost anything in this price range is more than adequate . . .

You've answered your question, right there.<g>

Buy whichever you like best.

Thanks Charles. When looking around online it's too easy to think that one *must* have this or that particular feature etc, which really could be much more than is necessary.

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Don't worry about your shortcomings in the store, they are there to help you find a piano and have heard all levels. Be respectful of the other customers and enjoy your shopping.


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Originally Posted by supersport
Don't worry about your shortcomings in the store, they are there to help you find a piano and have heard all levels.

+1. They would of course love to sell you a piano, and I think that it works best for everyone if you find a piano that you will be happy with. It’s important for you to play some things to get a sense of the touch of the different instruments. You may or may not feel a big difference, but you are the only one who will be able to decide which touch you prefer (if you have a preference) and how you weigh the touch and sound. Many of the digital pianos have some on board musical pieces, so the sales people may not even need to play anything themselves for you to hear some more complicated pieces. But I’m sure the sales people will play something if you think it will be helpful!

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Originally Posted by supersport
Don't worry about your shortcomings in the store, they are there to help you find a piano and have heard all levels. Be respectful of the other customers and enjoy your shopping.

Well because of covid it's only possible to visit the store with a prior appointment and it means I have the whole place to myself and therefore the absolute attention of the assistant. But I am very much looking forward to it 😃

Last edited by Baron Bob; 06/27/21 03:06 AM.
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Originally Posted by Sgisela
Originally Posted by supersport
Don't worry about your shortcomings in the store, they are there to help you find a piano and have heard all levels.

+1. They would of course love to sell you a piano, and I think that it works best for everyone if you find a piano that you will be happy with. It’s important for you to play some things to get a sense of the touch of the different instruments. You may or may not feel a big difference, but you are the only one who will be able to decide which touch you prefer (if you have a preference) and how you weigh the touch and sound. Many of the digital pianos have some on board musical pieces, so the sales people may not even need to play anything themselves for you to hear some more complicated pieces. But I’m sure the sales people will play something if you think it will be helpful!

This is why I want to go to a store before buying... I have been binge watching a multitude of piano reviews but at the end of the day, I cannot rate the sound on the internet and certainly not the feel either.

In the internet I would get better pricing but at the same time wish to support the businesses who have employees etc to pay. If I go to a store for trying out the instruments and do decide to make a purchase, then it would only be fair to buy from that store.

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Originally Posted by Baron Bob
Originally Posted by supersport
Don't worry about your shortcomings in the store, they are there to help you find a piano and have heard all levels. Be respectful of the other customers and enjoy your shopping.

Well because of covid it's only possible to visit the store with a prior appointment and it means I have the whole place to myself and therefore the absolute attention of the assistant. But I am very much looking forward to it 😃

I’ll give you a few tips that work no matter whether you stay digital or go acoustic.

Bring your music. Get comfortable at the piano seat. Start practicing. If you start with warmup arpeggios that also lets you hear bass, middle and treble. Start playing your favorite pieces. Get to know the sound and the touch. Play a hard piece. Is it tiring to play? Play very softly then play loud. Is the sound volume easily adjustable? Basically do a full short practice session. Take notes.

Welcome to PianoWorld! We love coaching savvy piano shoppers.


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Originally Posted by j&j
Originally Posted by Baron Bob
Originally Posted by supersport
Don't worry about your shortcomings in the store, they are there to help you find a piano and have heard all levels. Be respectful of the other customers and enjoy your shopping.

Well because of covid it's only possible to visit the store with a prior appointment and it means I have the whole place to myself and therefore the absolute attention of the assistant. But I am very much looking forward to it 😃

I’ll give you a few tips that work no matter whether you stay digital or go acoustic.

Bring your music. Get comfortable at the piano seat. Start practicing. If you start with warmup arpeggios that also lets you hear bass, middle and treble. Start playing your favorite pieces. Get to know the sound and the touch. Play a hard piece. Is it tiring to play? Play very softly then play loud. Is the sound volume easily adjustable? Basically do a full short practice session. Take notes.

Welcome to PianoWorld! We love coaching savvy piano shoppers.

Thank-you very much! Those are some very sensible and straightforward suggestions. I suppose common sense, really, but it does lay it out for me. This probably (hopefully) won't be the last time that I go shopping for a piano but it's (probably) the only time that I'm going to be worried about appearing to be an utter buffoon. *lol*

I really appreciate the support here from everybody.

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Originally Posted by Baron Bob
Originally Posted by Xam
Hi and welcome to the forum. FYI I started playing at 63.5yo, and two years in realized this is my calling. It has changed my life in just incredible ways.. Anyway

I have a really nice Kawai digital keyboard, that I'll always cherish and play mostly daily, still. There are a lot of options, of course, in digitals. 99.9% of the time when on the digi I am tuned in with headphones. I have played a few Yamaha's, and Roland's as well. Think the wattage in my ES8 is 10W. It's OK through the in board speakers, much better through the headphones. I did connect a JBL monitor for output, but thats kinda just collecting trinkets. You certainly need to play them and see what you like, as some really cool cool digis out there.

I wish, like you, I started at 50yo. But I'm lucky to be in awesome playing condition! You will most likely get acousticitis at some point and that is a whole other realm. But I love hammering out some of my compositions in say Clavi or Epiano mode on the keyboard after playing a session on the acoustic. Good luck and have fun. Yeah probably post over on the digi forum for more advice..

Thank-you so much! And here's me, wishing that I had started 10-15 yrs ago. At the moment I manage to average at least an hour's practice per day but progress is painfully slow. I wish I could see myself in a year or two to see if I really do get better 🤔

Silly question, what is acousticitis? Is that the desire to have a fully blown acoustic piano? It's something I would dearly love to have in a few years perhaps, but not until my playing is advanced enough to not bring the cats out wailing.

Wouldn't you rather do that instead of buying an electronic instrument every couple of years? They don't hold value, and by the time you get it, it's already outdated. If it's all you can afford then that's a different story. If you have a choice, go acoustic.

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Originally Posted by itsfreakingmeout
Originally Posted by Baron Bob
Originally Posted by Xam
Hi and welcome to the forum. FYI I started playing at 63.5yo, and two years in realized this is my calling. It has changed my life in just incredible ways.. Anyway

I have a really nice Kawai digital keyboard, that I'll always cherish and play mostly daily, still. There are a lot of options, of course, in digitals. 99.9% of the time when on the digi I am tuned in with headphones. I have played a few Yamaha's, and Roland's as well. Think the wattage in my ES8 is 10W. It's OK through the in board speakers, much better through the headphones. I did connect a JBL monitor for output, but thats kinda just collecting trinkets. You certainly need to play them and see what you like, as some really cool cool digis out there.

I wish, like you, I started at 50yo. But I'm lucky to be in awesome playing condition! You will most likely get acousticitis at some point and that is a whole other realm. But I love hammering out some of my compositions in say Clavi or Epiano mode on the keyboard after playing a session on the acoustic. Good luck and have fun. Yeah probably post over on the digi forum for more advice..

Thank-you so much! And here's me, wishing that I had started 10-15 yrs ago. At the moment I manage to average at least an hour's practice per day but progress is painfully slow. I wish I could see myself in a year or two to see if I really do get better 🤔

Silly question, what is acousticitis? Is that the desire to have a fully blown acoustic piano? It's something I would dearly love to have in a few years perhaps, but not until my playing is advanced enough to not bring the cats out wailing.

Wouldn't you rather do that instead of buying an electronic instrument every couple of years? They don't hold value, and by the time you get it, it's already outdated. If it's all you can afford then that's a different story. If you have a choice, go acoustic.

I get that but simply don't want to commit to an acoustic yet. I live in an appartment complex and here in Switzerland we are only permitted to 'make musical noise' for an hour a day, Mon-Sat.

So first off, I'd have a beast to move up to the fourth floor and move again to another appartment next time I move. Secondly, I couldn't really regulate the volume the same way as I could with a DP. I know about silent pianos and have actually been contemplating something like a Yamaha B2 SC2 but as a newbie there really is no way that I can justify (to my wife) spending round about 8000 USD here on something that I may not use in a year's time.

Bit of a conundrum really. On the one hand I'm aware that a DP will rapidly lose it's worth. On the other, whatever I buy will quickly become outdated. If I am more comfortable in a couple of years and then want an acoustic it will mean that I have wasted a fair bit on an interim solution.

I know that if I buy a really good DP then (cost-wise) I could get an acoustic anyway... Maybe I'll have more of an idea when I get to test out some in the store.

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Hi Bob. I too need to practice mostly with headphones, and have been doing so for a few years on a Kawai MP11SE, which has one of the most acoustic-like actions in a digital piano. However, I found the action to be a little light and lacking the inertia found in an acoustic grand action. I have since switched to a hybrid, which has an actual acoustic grand action. The pickups, however, are still digital so there are no strings, and hence no sound to bug your neighbors. Mine is a Yamaha N1. You may want to check out the Yamaha N1x which is the current model, or a Kawai Novus 10. They are more expensive than digitals, but if you can swing it, the action is as real as it gets on a non-acoustic piano, and will better prepare you to play on an acoustic piano if that is your goal.

Last edited by Emery Wang; 07/01/21 06:18 PM.

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Originally Posted by Baron Bob
Bit of a conundrum really. On the one hand I'm aware that a DP will rapidly lose it's worth. On the other, whatever I buy will quickly become outdated. If I am more comfortable in a couple of years and then want an acoustic it will mean that I have wasted a fair bit on an interim solution.

Many (if not most) of those who own an acoustic piano also have a digital piano for silent/low-volume practice. So, I wouldn't worry about the money wasted on DP as long as you stick with piano hobby.

As Emery mentioned Yamaha AvantGrand or Kawai Novus are the best 'hybrid DPs' out there. So, if you can swing your budget for that - go for it. If not, the models you mentioned (clp-745, ca-59 and lx-705) are all excellent as well. Go and play a few notes (of even the most beginner piece) on these and pick one that you like the touch and tone for. Ignore almost all internet/youtube videos & reviews - very hard to judge from that.

Osho


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Current VST favorites (in the order of preference): Pianoteq 7/VSL Synchron Concert D//Garritan CFX/Embertone Walker D Full

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. . . Bit of a conundrum really. On the one hand I'm aware that a DP will rapidly lose it's worth. On the other, whatever I buy will quickly become outdated. If I am more comfortable in a couple of years and then want an acoustic it will mean that I have wasted a fair bit on an interim solution.

You are not investing money, and expecting a financial return. You are buying a tool that will let you learn piano. It's going to depreciate, whatever happens.

It will work when you buy it, and it will continue to work _just the same_ as it ages. If it meets your needs when you buy it, and you're a beginner, it will continue to meet your needs for at least 2-3 years (assuming typical progress).

"Outdated" means something when comparing an old DP, to a new DP. It doesn't mean much when you own a DP, and are using it regularly and productively. The quality of actions changes very slowly, and the quality of sound generators changes faster, but still slowly. If you really want better sound, investigate VST's, and/or outboard loudspeakers.

There's a reasonably liquid market for used DP's. If you do get an acoustic, you can either:

. . . sell the DP for a decent fraction of what you paid (if it's only a few years old), or:

. . . Keep the DP (for "silent practice", or as a MIDI controller, if you need it).

A suggestion: When you test the LX705:

. . . set the "Full Scale String Resonance" to something higher than
. . . its default value (I think it's 5 by default -- try 7 or 8)

. . . Play with the "Ambience" (=reverb) setting if it seems too dry.

. . . Change the "Touch Sensitivity" if it gets too "metallic" at
. . . less-than-FF volumes.

Have fun, and don't forget your headphones.<G>


. Charles
---------------------------
PX-350 / microKorg XL+ / Pianoteq
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