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Originally Posted by Wie Waldi
Originally Posted by Batuhan
Originally Posted by ranjit
Originally Posted by Batuhan
Learning jazz without classical background is like learning physics without math
Haha good one. It's actually a nice analogy, but I doubt the OP has studied either.

That said, I think you need to know basic classical, not advanced stuff. So once you're at a grade 5-6 level in classical, jazz should be much more accessible.

I mean for example tritone substitution frequently used in jazz if you dont know what tritone is what interval is what are diatonic chords in the key what are 7th chords what is circle of fifths what is key it's impossible to grasp the concept of tritone substitution classical background is must have if you have really good understanding of music theory and harmony you can learn jazz concepts super fast.
And a jazz teacher can't teach that?

jazz teacher is a jazz teacher who is responsible for teaching you jazz concepts not basics of music theory. So hiring a jazz teacher after having classical background is more logical what is the point of hiring physics teacher when you dont know math and what is the point of asking physics teacher to teach math ?

Last edited by Batuhan; 06/23/21 08:55 PM.



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I think a good jazz teacher will be able to teach music theory just fine. It's not the music theory I'm worried about, I think that there basics of technique and reading are better taught in a classical setting.

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Originally Posted by spanishbuddha
OK, but for example there are at least 5 types of '7th' chords.
There’s actually 8. 😱


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Originally Posted by ebonyk
Originally Posted by spanishbuddha
OK, but for example there are at least 5 types of '7th' chords.
There’s actually 8. 😱

No there's actually 13. But 6 of them used very rarely like 7sus2 7sus4 or 7b5

Last edited by Batuhan; 06/23/21 11:05 PM.



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Originally Posted by Batuhan
Originally Posted by Wie Waldi
Originally Posted by Batuhan
Originally Posted by ranjit
Haha good one. It's actually a nice analogy, but I doubt the OP has studied either.

That said, I think you need to know basic classical, not advanced stuff. So once you're at a grade 5-6 level in classical, jazz should be much more accessible.

I mean for example tritone substitution frequently used in jazz if you dont know what tritone is what interval is what are diatonic chords in the key what are 7th chords what is circle of fifths what is key it's impossible to grasp the concept of tritone substitution classical background is must have if you have really good understanding of music theory and harmony you can learn jazz concepts super fast.
And a jazz teacher can't teach that?

jazz teacher is a jazz teacher who is responsible for teaching you jazz concepts not basics of music theory. So hiring a jazz teacher after having classical background is more logical what is the point of hiring physics teacher when you dont know math and what is the point of asking physics teacher to teach math ?
So music theory belongs to classical music only and not to jazz?


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If you consider learning jazz you should already know music theory at advanced level




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Originally Posted by Batuhan
If you consider learning jazz you should already know music theory at advanced level

My experience has been the complete opposite. I learned and applied more music theory through my blues/jazz lessons than I ever did in my classical lessons. Music theory in blues/jazz is taught and applied almost from step one. In contrast, many people take years of classical lessons and only have a surface level knowledge of music theory.

Your example of tritone substitutions, diatonic chords, circle of fifths and the concept of key is very odd. I associate this mostly with jazz. In the classical world, those concepts are usually only introduced at a surface level until you become more advanced - and even then many times it isn't applied in a practical manner.


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Originally Posted by Batuhan
Originally Posted by ebonyk
Originally Posted by spanishbuddha
OK, but for example there are at least 5 types of '7th' chords.
There’s actually 8. 😱

No there's actually 13. But 6 of them used very rarely like 7sus2 7sus4 or 7b5
I've actually seen 7 sus4 a lot.

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Originally Posted by Batuhan
If you consider learning jazz you should already know music theory at advanced level
One can play classical music with the knowledge of reading music sheet only. Every note is written down. And if one plays something different, it is a failure, not composing. But for jazz the understanding of music theory is essential. It's like having advanced music theory is like jazz-basics.

What you say sounds a bit like: If you want to learn jazz, you need to know jazz-basics before.


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Originally Posted by Wie Waldi
Originally Posted by Batuhan
If you consider learning jazz you should already know music theory at advanced level
One can play classical music with the knowledge of reading music sheet only. Every note is written down. And if one plays something different, it is a failure, not composing. But for jazz the understanding of music theory is essential. It's like having advanced music theory is like jazz-basics.

What you say sounds a bit like: If you want to learn jazz, you need to know jazz-basics before.

Do you really think one can play classical music with the knowledge of reading music sheet only ? This is ridiculous. Yes one can play the correct rhythm's and pitch but can it be considered playing ?

Last edited by Batuhan; 06/24/21 04:23 AM.



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My point is: you probably need more music theory for jazz than you do for classical. Because jazz has that impro stuff, classical does not. And for that impro stuff, music theory is crucial.
The next thing: music theory is like math. It is a very big field with a common section like the circle of fifths and then some more style oriented sections. Jazz players use typically different harmonics than classicals pianists do. Same with math: Computer scientists focus no different math than physicists.

Coming back to the physics/math analogy: I like analogies, but I would set it up as follows:
Math = music theory
Physics = classical
Computer science = jazz

If one wants to learn jazz only, imo one should begin with jazz asap. And if some foundation is missing, build the foundation when you need it. Same do people with classical all the time. (No one starts with moonlight sonata 3rd mvt, or assume to be able to play scales in 12 keys before the very first lesson)

E.g. a student needs 3 years to reach a certain level if he start with jazz from level 0. But if he would take 2 years of classical before, he would still need 2 more years of jazz learning to reach same jazz level: it is +1 year in total. (not wasted, but also not directly to the goal)

If you already started with classical and do the decision to switch to jazz later: fine. You can't turn back the time. And what you learned already in classical will help with jazz for sure. At least to some degree.


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Originally Posted by Wie Waldi
The next thing: music theory is like math. It is a very big field with a common section like the circle of fifths and then some more style oriented sections. Jazz players use typically different harmonics than classicals pianists do. Same with math: Computer scientists focus no different math than physicists.
Honestly, there isn't that much music theory to go around usually, unlike math. I think most of the music theory you'll ever need can be condensed down to a free books, and can probably be learned in around a year. Yeah, controversial opinion and all that. I don't find music theory to be "very big" at all. Math is like 1000 times more vast, there is no comparison.

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Then lets say, math=foundations:
scales
arpeggios
other fingertraining
chords
knowing theory
practising theory (transpose on the fly, whatever you name)

And I would not say, Hanon is classical music.

(thank god OP has left this thread some time ago, so we can keep on trolling, haha)


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Originally Posted by Batuhan
Do you really think one can play classical music with the knowledge of reading music sheet only ? This is ridiculous. Yes one can play the correct rhythm's and pitch but can it be considered playing ?

For some of us the answer would be a resounding yes. smile


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Originally Posted by Wie Waldi
My point is: you probably need more music theory for jazz than you do for classical. Because jazz has that impro stuff, classical does not. And for that impro stuff, music theory is crucial.
The next thing: music theory is like math. It is a very big field with a common section like the circle of fifths and then some more style oriented sections. Jazz players use typically different harmonics than classicals pianists do. Same with math: Computer scientists focus no different math than physicists.

Coming back to the physics/math analogy: I like analogies, but I would set it up as follows:
Math = music theory
Physics = classical
Computer science = jazz

If one wants to learn jazz only, imo one should begin with jazz asap. And if some foundation is missing, build the foundation when you need it. Same do people with classical all the time. (No one starts with moonlight sonata 3rd mvt, or assume to be able to play scales in 12 keys before the very first lesson)

E.g. a student needs 3 years to reach a certain level if he start with jazz from level 0. But if he would take 2 years of classical before, he would still need 2 more years of jazz learning to reach same jazz level: it is +1 year in total. (not wasted, but also not directly to the goal)

If you already started with classical and do the decision to switch to jazz later: fine. You can't turn back the time. And what you learned already in classical will help with jazz for sure. At least to some degree.

I'm not saying classical music is math actually classical music is quantum physics smile I'm saying classical music have the foundational knowledge you need for jazz you can't say one music genre is superior than other jazz music is not superior than classical music absolutely not yes jazz music is harder to grasp but being hard doesn't mean better jazz music is for entertainment purposes I'm not taking jazz music seriously also you can improvise in classical music too %90 percent of classical music compositions born from composers improvising using extended chords and more complicated rythms doesn't make jazz music superior if we think like that atonal music or schoenberg's music much more complicated than jazz

Last edited by Batuhan; 06/24/21 06:12 PM.



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Learn and play in all styles as much as time permits. Classical and jazz are arbitrarily restricted areas of the infinite musical landscape, and to that extent are just means to the ultimate end of getting your own ideas out.


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