2022 our 25th year online!

Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 3 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments.
Over 100,000 members from around the world.
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

Shop our online store for music lovers
SEARCH
Piano Forums & Piano World
(ad)
Pianoteq
Steinway Spiro Layering
(ad)
Piano Life Saver - Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
(ad)
Wessell Nickel & Gross
PianoForAll
Who's Online Now
71 members (BMKE, accordeur, 5stringbanjo, 0day, AJB, antune, 13 invisible), 660 guests, and 287 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
(ad)
Estonia Pianos
Estonia Pianos
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Hop To
Page 3 of 4 1 2 3 4
Joined: Jun 2019
Posts: 1,255
B
1000 Post Club Member
Offline
1000 Post Club Member
B
Joined: Jun 2019
Posts: 1,255
Originally Posted by clothearednincompo
The 5-pin MIDI would be useful for connecting to other musical instruments...
Instruments built last millennium smile

Originally Posted by clothearednincompo
... or for avoiding a ground loop if the piano were also connected via an audio cable at the same time.
The CLP-725 has USB Audio so that avoids any analogue issues like attenuation, distortion, and ground loop smile

Last edited by Burkey; 06/17/21 10:15 AM.

Pianos are one of the best human inventions of the past 320 years - help evangelize the magic!
Joined: Nov 2016
Posts: 3,320
C
3000 Post Club Member
Offline
3000 Post Club Member
C
Joined: Nov 2016
Posts: 3,320
Originally Posted by Burkey
Instruments built last millennium smile

Well, USB MIDI between instruments just really isn't a thing yet, so if you need to make them talk to each other and don't want to use a computer in the middle, then the "Legacy MIDI" is the way to go.

Dexibell does support also USB "master" role for connecting with class compliant USB MIDI devices, but that's a rare thing. Mostly digital pianos are just "peripherals" if that was the correct USB terminology.

Originally Posted by Burkey
The CLP-725 has USB Audio...

In which case you then won't have the audio cable in the picture.

But USB audio also isn't really a standard thing yet. It's becoming a one, I guess. And even some cheap models have it, so it can't be a HUGE cost to add it except for the product design phase engineering cost of course.

Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 14,439
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 14,439
@Wie Waldi: Please don't resurrect that downweight chart. It's been viewed as inaccurate and misleading.

Joined: Mar 2021
Posts: 43
W
WPianoY Offline OP
Full Member
OP Offline
Full Member
W
Joined: Mar 2021
Posts: 43
So, digital pianos are prone to humidity and can catch fungus as well? Which part/s of a digital piano is more attacked by fungus?
So, is there any piano I can buy without having to worry about fungus issue. As I said this is the reason I want to buy a digital one for now.
Any suggestion.

Joined: Feb 2021
Posts: 198
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
Joined: Feb 2021
Posts: 198
Originally Posted by MacMacMac
@Wie Waldi: Please don't resurrect that downweight chart. It's been viewed as inaccurate and misleading.
Thanks. Thought of that already. I guess same is true for this table:
DigitalPianoActionComparison

I just meant it would be a good idea to make a table in a similar style...

Measue to measure following 6 keys:
- lowest white key (depends if you have 61, 73 or 88 keys)
- lowest black key
- middle C
- middle C#
- highest white key
- highest black key

Downweight-method: Use a touch insensitive setting (e.g. harpsichord). Load up weight until sound appears. Then lift up the key with the finger at the front of the keystick and let the key fall down. A sound should appear again. Now remove piece after piece of weight until this test fails (with the lifting finger method). Add back the last piece of weight and the test should give you a sound again. This weight is the downweight.
It may be a bit cumbersome to test this way, but it eliminates inaccuracies between different testers. Dropping a coin causes a little inertia. And a half pressed key needs different weight for a sound than a completely lifted key.

Upweight-method: Use a tone with constant sound (e.g. organ) and find the highest weight that makes the piano silent after you remove the finger from the key.

Always place the weight at the tip of the key (away from the fallboard).


I know this is not exact science as the same keyboard-type can give different results on different piano-copies. Even two adjacent keys of same keyboard can have different weights. More than one expects. Not to mention inaccuracies with the weights. I mean nobody has a professional equipment to measure. Most will use coins to do so. And how heavy is one certain coin? Rely on internet-data? Are all coins of same type equal heavy?
But with many user inputs, one can make an average to get a usable tendency. For sure better quality as the data of that existing tables above.

btw:
The "official" method that is used for an acoustic instrument (something with letoff point) is in my opinion not a good approach for a digital. Especially as some digitals don't have letoff. And if there is letoff, it is fake by a rubber nibble.



....Sorry for my cumbersome English - this isn't my native language....


Self teaching Adult Beginner without method | Kawai CN29, Senn HD560s
Joined: Nov 2016
Posts: 3,320
C
3000 Post Club Member
Offline
3000 Post Club Member
C
Joined: Nov 2016
Posts: 3,320
Probably people mentioned wood parts and humidity due to wood parts possibly swelling.

A piano pushing out mushrooms would be quite an extreme case for effects of humidity. 🍄

(Or more like moisture and not just humidity.)

Joined: Nov 2020
Posts: 604
P
500 Post Club Member
Online Content
500 Post Club Member
P
Joined: Nov 2020
Posts: 604
Quote
Thanks. Thought of that already. I guess same is true for this table:
DigitalPianoActionComparison

Yes the sweet water test was panned because listening for sound is not how you test an acoustic.

But trying to estimate the let off point is worse.

Also sweet water used two weights but the affect of that can be mathematically calculated out

So I think it is still a valid test.

I know some pianos allow adjusting the minimum velocity for sound.

But I believe you are correct an organ sound would appear to be off or on.


FP-90x, PX-330
Joined: Feb 2021
Posts: 198
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
Joined: Feb 2021
Posts: 198
Originally Posted by Purdy
Yes the sweet water test was anned because listening for sound is not how you test an acoustic.
I agree to sweetwater and think we cannot test a digital the same way as we test an acoustic.

I would go even further: The way an acoustic is measured is digital. The letoff point is reached or not. And if it is reached, one can see a lever moving. So it is a simple yes/no question (digital). This is the only way to get reliable results. If one tries to measure the downweight until you hear a sound, it is analoge. How loud must this sound be? Guessing? No way! So the way an acoustic is measured, is the best way to measure an acoustic. period.

But we are talking about digitals. We must eliminate all guess working. And on a digital, the only thing you can measure is how much weight is needed to make something like a harpsichord sound. And because it is always loud enough, it is a simple yes/no question.

Okay, in this way we cannot translate the downweight of a digital 1:1 to an acoustic. And we don't need to do. Because it isn't an acoustic anyway. But we can compare amongst digitals very precisely.

And for both piano types, the downweight does not reflect the players experience about how much force is needed to make it sound. Digitals can change the velocity curve. Acoustics can have different letoff distances...

Originally Posted by Purdy
But trying to estimate the let off point is worse.
100% true. And if the DP has no letoff point, 200% true.

Originally Posted by Purdy
So I think it is still a valid test.
With your information, I agree sweetwater made a valid test. And of coarse it is much more exact than doing tests with inaccurate weights like coins, performed by different people. Unfortunately the sweetwater table lacks some recent actions:
Kawai RHC
Kawai RHIII (maybe like Nord Grand? not really...)
Kawai GFC
Kawai GFIII
Yamaha GrandTouch-S plastic (CLP-725/735)
Yamaha GrandTouch-S wood (CLP-745)
Yamaha GrandTouch w.o. counterweights (CLP-775)
Yamaha GrandTouch with counterweights (CLP-785)

Originally Posted by Purdy
But I believe you are correct an organ sound would appear to be off or on.
Not in Kawai world. Kawai made the organs touch sensitive. It is good for measuring upweight, only. For downweight I would go harpsichord.


Self teaching Adult Beginner without method | Kawai CN29, Senn HD560s
Joined: Sep 2020
Posts: 229
O
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
O
Joined: Sep 2020
Posts: 229
I think we need to stop comparing Acoustics and Digital, they are 2 different instruments, much like an Acoustic and an Electric guitar.
Expecting a Digital to feel and sound like an acoustic is a completely pointless pursuit - it never will.
Once we accept the differences and limitations we can just get on and play.

Joined: Feb 2021
Posts: 198
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
Joined: Feb 2021
Posts: 198
Originally Posted by OU812
I think we need to stop comparing Acoustics and Digital, they are 2 different instruments, much like an Acoustic and an Electric guitar.
Expecting a Digital to feel and sound like an acoustic is a completely pointless pursuit - it never will.
Once we accept the differences and limitations we can just get on and play.
Exactly.

And still are A and D pianos more similar than A and E guitars. A DP at least tries to simulate an AP. E-guitars really live on their own.

I would even bet, there are some concert pianists that travel with digital slabs for hotel-room practise.


Self teaching Adult Beginner without method | Kawai CN29, Senn HD560s
Joined: Jun 2016
Posts: 1,042
1000 Post Club Member
Online Content
1000 Post Club Member
Joined: Jun 2016
Posts: 1,042
Originally Posted by Wie Waldi
Originally Posted by OU812
I think we need to stop comparing Acoustics and Digital, they are 2 different instruments, much like an Acoustic and an Electric guitar.
Expecting a Digital to feel and sound like an acoustic is a completely pointless pursuit - it never will.
Once we accept the differences and limitations we can just get on and play.
Exactly.

And still are A and D pianos more similar than A and E guitars. A DP at least tries to simulate an AP. E-guitars really live on their own.

I would even bet, there are some concert pianists that travel with digital slabs for hotel-room practise.

You would win such a bet.

As posted here at PW, during his last few years, Joe Sample practiced in hotels (when on the road) AND performed live with a Casio PX350....okay, he was a jazz pianist who played concerts.


Last edited by drewr; 06/17/21 09:34 PM.

- Kawai MP7 and LSR308 monitors
- Roland HP-508
- DT770 Pro-80 and MDR-7506 phones
Joined: Nov 2020
Posts: 604
P
500 Post Club Member
Online Content
500 Post Club Member
P
Joined: Nov 2020
Posts: 604
Yes but I believe it is in our interest to compare digital actions. It would be nice to have some common metrics.

One thing I noticed is that I get a midi message with a velocity of 1 even when I don’t get a sound on a piano tone.

That same key press will produce a sound on an organ.

So maybe we can look at the midi output to see when the piano says the key was pressed.


FP-90x, PX-330
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 14,439
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 14,439
There's a simpler method. Put your keys on the keyboard. Play the piano.

If it feels right, then it is right. And then ... who cares about the numbers?

Pianos are for playing, not for measuring.

Joined: Jun 2019
Posts: 1,255
B
1000 Post Club Member
Offline
1000 Post Club Member
B
Joined: Jun 2019
Posts: 1,255
Originally Posted by Wie Waldi
The way an acoustic is measured is digital. The letoff point is reached or not.
Incorrect: down weight / touch weight is the weight required to start the key moving down. It doesn't have to reach the let-off - indeed it would be quite difficult to measure that precisely, and it wouldn't be comparable between instruments anyway (several models don't have fake let-off, and no digital piano has actual real let-off, only the hybrid NV5S, NV10S, N2, N1, N1X, N3X, NU1X have real escapement).

The only other key action weight measurement you may want to measure is by holding the key all the way down, and then see what weight it can lift up from that position.

More valuable than that would be to measure the momentum the key has - simply video a staccato note from the side at a high frame rate, then by counting the frames you can compare counterweighting/momentum/heavy sluggishness (that's a technical term!) between models.

Last edited by Burkey; 06/17/21 11:04 PM.

Pianos are one of the best human inventions of the past 320 years - help evangelize the magic!
Joined: Jun 2019
Posts: 1,255
B
1000 Post Club Member
Offline
1000 Post Club Member
B
Joined: Jun 2019
Posts: 1,255
Originally Posted by Burkey
counterweighting/momentum/heavy sluggishness
Some people also call this 'dynamic weight' but momentum is technically the more correct term.

Last edited by Burkey; 06/18/21 12:35 AM.

Pianos are one of the best human inventions of the past 320 years - help evangelize the magic!
Joined: May 2020
Posts: 495
M
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
M
Joined: May 2020
Posts: 495
Originally Posted by MacMacMac
There's a simpler method. Put your keys on the keyboard. Play the piano.

Some people even put their fingers on the keyboard.


at home: Kawai MP11SE; Yamaha LG800; Yamaha HS7; Ultimate MS-100B; Sennheiser HD558 | office: MP7SE; K&M 18820; Beyerdynamic DT-770 Pro

Adult beginner
Hugh Sung, Popular Piano course (in progress)
Joined: Dec 2020
Posts: 93
N
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
N
Joined: Dec 2020
Posts: 93
Originally Posted by WPianoY
So, digital pianos are prone to humidity and can catch fungus as well? Which part/s of a digital piano is more attacked by fungus?
So, is there any piano I can buy without having to worry about fungus issue. As I said this is the reason I want to buy a digital one for now.
Any suggestion.
there are many stories where wood have extended and keys are touching each other
forget wood and go plastic

Joined: Jun 2019
Posts: 2,982
S
2000 Post Club Member
Offline
2000 Post Club Member
S
Joined: Jun 2019
Posts: 2,982
Originally Posted by Burkey
I prefer the action of the CA79, however the main advantage of the Yamaha Clavinova CLP models is they have USB Audio which means hooking up a VST/synthesizer only requires 1 single fifty-cent USB cable to both send MIDI and also receive audio. Whereas in the CA79 you need at least 3 cables: 1 USB cable for sending MIDI + more expensive (and lower quality sound) left and right audio cables to receive the audio back into the piano.

I'm betting that in 2023 the CA80/CA100 models will rectify this oversight.

You can buy a DAC for the VST if you have the Kawai piano without USB hosting to route digital audio from the VST to the internal DAC of the piano.

What is the workaround for an action that is too heavy?


Repertoire interests: early Baroque through early Romantic eras.
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 7,267
7000 Post Club Member
Offline
7000 Post Club Member
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 7,267
I’ve tested a P515 a few days ago after owning a N1X for two years now. Felt very close to the real grand piano action in terms of weight, friction and inertia and also the feel of bottoming out - firm and distinct. The GF action in CA instruments is almost the opposite of it: too light, too smooth, too easy to press and feeling mushy when bottoming out without clear distinction where the bottom is. I would personally take a NWX action over a GF action.

P.S. Still, all digital piano actions push against your fingers due to lack of real escapement. But I guess that’s inevitable.

Last edited by CyberGene; 06/18/21 04:17 AM.

I'm not around. You can find me here
My YouTube, My Soundcloud
Yamaha N1X, Cybrid DIY hybrid controller
Joined: Jun 2019
Posts: 1,255
B
1000 Post Club Member
Offline
1000 Post Club Member
B
Joined: Jun 2019
Posts: 1,255
Originally Posted by Sweelinck
Originally Posted by Burkey
I prefer the action of the CA79, however the main advantage of the Yamaha Clavinova CLP models is they have USB Audio which means hooking up a VST/synthesizer only requires 1 single fifty-cent USB cable to both send MIDI and also receive audio. Whereas in the CA79 you need at least 3 cables: 1 USB cable for sending MIDI + more expensive (and lower quality sound) left and right audio cables to receive the audio back into the piano.

I'm betting that in 2023 the CA80/CA100 models will rectify this oversight.

You can buy a DAC for the VST if you have the Kawai piano
How does buying a DAC help? Your computer already has a DAC, and a new DAC won't eliminate the distortion, attenuation, and ground loop issues.


Pianos are one of the best human inventions of the past 320 years - help evangelize the magic!
Page 3 of 4 1 2 3 4

Moderated by  Piano World 

Link Copied to Clipboard
(ad)
Best of Piano Buyer
Piano Buyer - Read the Articles, Explore the website
(ad)
PianoDisc

PianoDisc
(ad)
Faust Harrison Pianos
Faust Harrison 100+ Steinway pianos
(ad)
Mason & Hamlin Pianos
New Topics - Multiple Forums
Is a CPT necessary?
by Petoskeyguy - 08/13/22 11:07 AM
Yamaha clp 785 horrible chorus effect
by Chrisgilx - 08/13/22 10:51 AM
How are you learning?
by bennevis - 08/13/22 09:41 AM
Here am and a little help
by Mayopapayo - 08/13/22 07:14 AM
Download Sheet Music
Virtual Sheet Music - Classical Sheet Music Downloads
What's Hot!!
FREE June Newsletter is Here!
--------------------
Forums RULES, Terms of Service & HELP
(updated 06/06/2022)
-------------------
Music Store Going Out of Business Sale!
---------------------
Mr. PianoWorld's Original Composition
---------------------
Sell Your Piano on our world famous Piano Forums!
---------------------
Posting Pictures on the Forums
-------------------
ADVERTISE on Piano World
Forum Statistics
Forums43
Topics214,375
Posts3,215,974
Members106,078
Most Online15,252
Mar 21st, 2010
Please Support Our Advertisers

Faust Harrison 100+ Steinways

Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver

 Best of Piano Buyer

PianoTeq Bechstein
Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers

Virtual Sheet Music - Classical Sheet Music Downloads



 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
| Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter | MapleStreetMusicShop.com - Our store in Cornish Maine


© copyright 1997 - 2022 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5