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#3103671 04/08/21 10:25 AM
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For a few years I've been using an old Behringer 802 mixer as part of my rig. Despite it's name it's actually only 6 channel and I had it set up for my Zoom piano lessons connected to a small USB 2x2 audio interface.

I had the interface connected both as an input to the mixer and as an output so that I could hear what my teacher was saying/playing and he could hear me.

I used the mixer to connect my stage piano (stereo), microphone, and a drum machine or metronome when required.

This rig worked pretty well until the USB interface broke a few weeks ago. To replace it I bought a USB mixer (Behringer Q1002 USB), which I assumed would replace both the mixer and the interface. Part of my reason was to tidy up my desk at it would use less cables.

Anyway the Behringer Q1002 USB doesn't work (in this application), as the signal path is split so that it will only send or receive (input or output) unless you press a button.

This makes it useless for what I want.

Now I've figured out a work around, as I can connect the headphone out on my computer as an input into the mixer, but it really annoys me that I have to.

Before I return it, is there either anything that I'm missing, or does anybody have any recommendations for how to set up a rig that will work. I'm also thinking of maybe getting a bigger interface and mix the channels on the computer.

Any suggestions or advice ?

Thanks.

Last edited by AndyOnThePiano; 04/08/21 10:27 AM.

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Cannot say anything about the Behringer setup.

For almost the same usecase I'm using a Yamaha AG06 (approx 150 EUR), I use it as follows:
- Microphone for voice on channel 1 so teacher can hear me
- Piano line out feeds into channel 3/4
- Sometimes use phone to feed into aux port (different channel) to use as metronome
You could easily feed the drum machine in by using on channel 5/6 as well.

Use headphones on monitor output on the mixer. Put mixer on "input mix"
Connect USB of mixer to laptop. If you're on Windows, install drivers for best sound.
Set both the input and output on Zoom to use the mixer.

Result:
1) Teacher can hear your voice, piano, drummachine/metronome
2) You can hear your piano, drummachine AND your teacher on your headphones
(You can choose if you want to hear microphone or mute that channel)

I also looked at the Yamaha MG10XU and Mackie ProFX10. I think those could work as well, however they are bigger and more expensive. I'm happy with the AG06, it's easy to set up and does exactly what I need it to do.

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FWIW --

I tried doing real-time mixing on my Windows computer (Intel i5 CPU, OK for Pianoteq):

. . . it was a dismal failure.

There's just too much latency in the Windows software.

Quote
. . . Now I've figured out a work around, as I can connect the headphone out on my computer as an input into the mixer, but it really annoys me that I have to.

I'm willing to live with that compromise. I have a Behringer Xenyx 802 mixer (no USB connection), and a dirt-simple ART Xconnect mic-to-USB interface, and a DI box, that I've used for voice lessons.

The mic (and keyboard) goes into the Left mixer channel, to the DI box (in reverse), to the Xconnect, to the computer's USB port.

The computer's soundcard output (from Zoom) goes into the Right channel of the mixer.

The headphones plug into the mixer -- my voice (and playing) in the Left channel, teacher's voice (and playing) from Zoom into the Right channel.

Primitive, but it works. No loudspeakers, so Zoom's "Original Sound" option is very effective, with no feedback.

Life would be nicer with a bi-directional, stereo audio-to-USB adapter. I'll get there, eventually.


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AG-06 user as well. You need an interface with loopback to do what (I think) you want to do. AG-06 or AG-03 would work, there are some others that would also but you need to be careful, some apparently has loopback support but it is not hardware.

Below, some audio interface (mis)adventures by our friend David Lai until he found one that worked for him. The threads may have useful information to you.

http://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthreads.php/topics/2990165/1.html

http://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthre...-vst-to-audacity-using-presonus-24c.html

http://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthreads.php/topics/2995669/finally-found-my-audio-interface.html

I hope this helps.


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Check out Mackie ProFxv3 or Yamaha MG series mixers. Both have USB and tons of other features. I have the Mackie ProFx12v3 and it has alot of functionality.

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I can confirm that the Yamaha MG10XU works the same as the description of the AG06 from rmnd. I have the Yamaha Steinberg drivers installed on the connected Windows PC. No idea what difference that makes but it's part of the installation.

Originally Posted by rmnd
Cannot say anything about the Behringer setup.

For almost the same usecase I'm using a Yamaha AG06 (approx 150 EUR), I use it as follows:
- Microphone for voice on channel 1 so teacher can hear me
- Piano line out feeds into channel 3/4
- Sometimes use phone to feed into aux port (different channel) to use as metronome
You could easily feed the drum machine in by using on channel 5/6 as well.

Use headphones on monitor output on the mixer. Put mixer on "input mix"
Connect USB of mixer to laptop. If you're on Windows, install drivers for best sound.
Set both the input and output on Zoom to use the mixer.

Result:
1) Teacher can hear your voice, piano, drummachine/metronome
2) You can hear your piano, drummachine AND your teacher on your headphones
(You can choose if you want to hear microphone or mute that channel)

I also looked at the Yamaha MG10XU and Mackie ProFX10. I think those could work as well, however they are bigger and more expensive. I'm happy with the AG06, it's easy to set up and does exactly what I need it to do.

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Originally Posted by Pathbreaker
I can confirm that the Yamaha MG10XU works the same as the description of the AG06 from rmnd.

Can you play something on your PC, say a VST or an MP3 or a Utube video and the person on the other side listen to you? On AG-06 there is a selection switch that selects the source that goes to PC, including the PC itself (loopback option). From pictures of MG10XU, it seems channels 9/10 can be used this way (line/USB button).



Originally Posted by Pathbreaker
I have the Yamaha Steinberg drivers installed on the connected Windows PC. No idea what difference that makes but it's part of the installation.

On AG-06 the driver is ASIO compliant. Windows native driver worked but latency (in my experience) was very high, it needed a 512 samples buffer to work without glitches and still... With Yamaha's ASIO driver, buffer can be set less samples and still work without glitches.


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Originally Posted by EVC2017
Originally Posted by Pathbreaker
I can confirm that the Yamaha MG10XU works the same as the description of the AG06 from rmnd.

Can you play something on your PC, say a VST or an MP3 or a Utube video and the person on the other side listen to you? On AG-06 there is a selection switch that selects the source that goes to PC, including the PC itself (loopback option). From pictures of MG10XU, it seems channels 9/10 can be used this way (line/USB button).

Yes. The red button just above the 9/10 volume on the bottom which is labeled TO MON / TO ST makes this possible. My normal setup I don't enable that button. So if I have a metronome or other audio coming from the Zoom PC, the Zoom audience cannot hear it. If I enable that button they can then hear desktop audio BUT, when someone on Zoom speaks they get feedback hearing their own voice. The person on the other side can listen and it works quite well if they don't try to speak until I disable that feature.

It's simple enough to press the button again but many might find this annoying. I don't normally use audio from the Zoom PC for my lesson so it's no big deal. I use a VST from another PC that is fed into the mixer along with everything else. So the input for zoom from the mixer has all that I need. I'm sure the 2nd PC is probably overkill, it's just what was available to me when I was setting everything up.

Does the AG06 "loopback" work the same way? If I had to recommend a mixer I would more likely recommend the AG06 but I haven't actually seen it in action. For me, the MG10XU has exceeded my expectations even though I'm not using all the features.

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Originally Posted by Pathbreaker
[it works quite well if they don't try to speak until I disable that feature.

What happens if you do not disable it? I am guessing you get some looped repetition or decaying echo for you to mention that.

Originally Posted by Pathbreaker
Does the AG06 "loopback" work the same way?

I keep my AG-06 with that selection switch on "LOOPBAK" (the other positions are "DRY CH 1-2" and "INPUT MIX" - not sure exactly they are for). This way my teacher hears the piano (line outs connected to inputs 5/6 but works equally well on 3/4), me (lavalier mic on input 1) and my PC (LOOPBACK). This way I may use Pianoteq if I want or play an mp3 file or a video I want to ask something about.


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Thanks everyone. I appreciate your responses.

It seems that the Yamaha AG10 will do what I want.

I was digging into it a bit more yesterday and was told that the mixer needs to have four outputs to be able to work.

I'll take a look at what's available.

I can use the headphone out work around, but really feel that they should explain this better. Or maybe I need to educate myself better before buying something.

It feels like I've bought a five seater car and found out that I can only ever use two seats of the five at a time !


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Originally Posted by AndyOnThePiano
It seems that the Yamaha AG10 will do what I want.

10??? smile

Originally Posted by AndyOnThePiano
I was digging into it a bit more yesterday and was told that the mixer needs to have four outputs to be able to work.

Outputs or inputs? If the former, how so?


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I also have a Yamaha AG-03. Replaced my Steinberg UR22mkII for the increased flexibility of the AG-03, and the quality is essentially the same: same preamps, same driver, same (low) latency - and cheaper. The only thing I miss is the MIDI in/out, but nowadays all DPs/keyboards have USB MIDI, so not a big deal.

When I use a VST, I send the output of the videoconferencing app (Zoom/Google Meet/etc) to another USB interface (I have an old Behringer UCA222 which I use for this), and feed its physical output to the Aux input of the AG-03. The Aux input is not fed into the USB input, so only I can hear it. This way people on the other side of the call don't hear feedback of their voices. (The PC's own audio output could be used as well, but in my case this causes a lot of noise, and for this reason I use an auxiliar interface.)

Ideally the interface should have two digital stereo outputs, one for loopback and one without loopback. But I suppose this doesn't exist yet. These mixers are not made for videoconferencing, but for podcasts, lives, etc. Yamaha, please listen to us.


Yamaha GB1K baby grand; Roland FP-80 & FP-7F; Garritan CFX; Yamaha AG-03; Sennheiser HD 579 & HD 569; Zoom H5.
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Originally Posted by matschulat
I also have a Yamaha AG-03. Replaced my Steinberg UR22mkII for the increased flexibility of the AG-03, and the quality is essentially the same: same preamps, same driver, same (low) latency - and cheaper. The only thing I miss is the MIDI in/out, but nowadays all DPs/keyboards have USB MIDI, so not a big deal.

When I use a VST, I send the output of the videoconferencing app (Zoom/Google Meet/etc) to another USB interface (I have an old Behringer UCA222 which I use for this), and feed its physical output to the Aux input of the AG-03. The Aux input is not fed into the USB input, so only I can hear it. This way people on the other side of the call don't hear feedback of their voices. (The PC's own audio output could be used as well, but in my case this causes a lot of noise, and for this reason I use an auxiliar interface.)

Ideally the interface should have two digital stereo outputs, one for loopback and one without loopback. But I suppose this doesn't exist yet. These mixers are not made for videoconferencing, but for podcasts, lives, etc. Yamaha, please listen to us.

I think that this is similar to what I'm doing . The audio from my teacher comes via the headphone socket but could just as easily be via a dac into the mixer.

What I used to use was the UCA222 in between the mixer and PC and this worked bidirectionally with no feedback.

I'd expected the USB mixer to work in the same way.


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Originally Posted by EVC2017
Originally Posted by AndyOnThePiano
It seems that the Yamaha AG10 will do what I want.

10??? smile

Originally Posted by AndyOnThePiano
I was digging into it a bit more yesterday and was told that the mixer needs to have four outputs to be able to work.

Outputs or inputs? If the former, how so?

Think I may have meant the AG6 that people are referring to in this thread.


As for the 4 outputs. I'm not sure I understand why. I probably need to figure out exactly how mixers work, but it's never been something that I felt the need or desire to in the past.


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Originally Posted by AndyOnThePiano
Think I may have meant the AG6 that people are referring to in this thread.
Me too. smile


Originally Posted by AndyOnThePiano
As for the 4 outputs. I'm not sure I understand why. I probably need to figure out exactly how mixers work, but it's never been something that I felt the need or desire to in the past.

I think he meant inputs. AG06 has six (thus the number), one for mic (with phantom power), one mic/guitar, two aux (TS), two other aux (RCA). And, in fact, it has four outputs, two for monitors and two line outs. Those are for the case it is used as a stant-alone mixer, not an audio interface, though it may be limited in this regard.

For my current needs, it has been more than enough, especially with the loobpack function.

[Linked Image]

Last edited by EVC2017; 04/09/21 12:21 PM.

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With regard to the output: The Yamaha AG06 (and same for the other mixers) mix all input together into a stereo output. So if you are to record using the AG06, you cannot record all inputs separately - it will be mixed together.

If that's something you want, you'll need to mixers or audio interfaces that support multi-track recording. However that'll usually make your life much more complex (and expensive) if you're just using it for Zoom.

To understand the difference between input mix and loopback:
- With input mix, the AG06 mixes all your inputs into the USB interface to use in Zoom as input device. If you select the AG06 as output device using Zoom, you'll hear the computer output through the USB into the headphones connected on the monitor out (you can change volume using the USB volume knob, on the left of the headphone monitor volume knob). The teacher on Zoom however, will NOT hear himself.
- The difference with loopback is that the mixer also takes the sound of your computer and resends that as 1 mix. This is useful if you use the mixer as a commentary on youtube, gaming livestream or something. It generally is not wanted for Zoom lessons as it will result in the teacher hearing himself (with a delay).

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Originally Posted by rmnd
- The difference with loopback is that the mixer also takes the sound of your computer and resends that as 1 mix. This is useful if you use the mixer as a commentary on youtube, gaming livestream or something. It generally is not wanted for Zoom lessons as it will result in the teacher hearing himself (with a delay).

That last part I have to check with my teacher later today. He never complained but I need to confirm. FWIW we are using google meet for the lessons.


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This explains the signal path. It seems that you can't play and listen at the same time.


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Originally Posted by rmnd
To understand the difference between input mix and loopback:
- With input mix, the AG06 mixes all your inputs into the USB interface to use in Zoom as input device. If you select the AG06 as output device using Zoom, you'll hear the computer output through the USB into the headphones connected on the monitor out (you can change volume using the USB volume knob, on the left of the headphone monitor volume knob). The teacher on Zoom however, will NOT hear himself.
- The difference with loopback is that the mixer also takes the sound of your computer and resends that as 1 mix. This is useful if you use the mixer as a commentary on youtube, gaming livestream or something. It generally is not wanted for Zoom lessons as it will result in the teacher hearing himself (with a delay).

Thanks for your support with this. Is there a solution that's not going to cost hundreds or should I just keep doing what I'm doing linking the headphone socket of the pc back into two input channels of the mixer ?

I still don't understand how my previous botched together solution of the Behringer Xenyx 802 and the simple 2 channel interface worked. Nobody ever complained of feedback or echoes etc.


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Originally Posted by EVC2017
Originally Posted by rmnd
- The difference with loopback is that the mixer also takes the sound of your computer and resends that as 1 mix. This is useful if you use the mixer as a commentary on youtube, gaming livestream or something. It generally is not wanted for Zoom lessons as it will result in the teacher hearing himself (with a delay).

That last part I have to check with my teacher later today. He never complained but I need to confirm. FWIW we are using google meet for the lessons.

The answer is no, he does not hears himself. There must be some sort of echo cancelling in place.


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