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The art is the action against the establishment or against the authority


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Originally Posted by beeboss
Originally Posted by wr
What I do mind is the intellectually dishonest explanation for doing it, in this case. It amounts to a kind of fraud, in my opinion, and should be deplored for that reason, rather than because it's bizarrely far removed from normal performance practice.

That seems even stranger to me. You are evaluating a work of art not by the art itself but rather by what the artist says about it.

I think wr's point was that the tempo is being chosen to promote a non-mainstream theory about tempo rather than out of an aesthetic for artistic effect.

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Originally Posted by beeboss
Originally Posted by wr
What I do mind is the intellectually dishonest explanation for doing it, in this case. It amounts to a kind of fraud, in my opinion, and should be deplored for that reason, rather than because it's bizarrely far removed from normal performance practice.

That seems even stranger to me. You are evaluating a work of art not by the art itself but rather by what the artist says about it.

What a weird statement. Tempo markings are part of the score and thus part of the art. Just like note values, dynamics etc.


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Originally Posted by beeboss
Originally Posted by wr
What I do mind is the intellectually dishonest explanation for doing it, in this case. It amounts to a kind of fraud, in my opinion, and should be deplored for that reason, rather than because it's bizarrely far removed from normal performance practice.

That seems even stranger to me. You are evaluating a work of art not by the art itself but rather by what the artist says about it.

No, I'm not evaluating the work, at all. I don't mind experimentation per se - it's critical to the vitality of the culture, and I don't have to participate as a listener if I don't want to.

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I like it for the same reason I like practicing Chopin etudes slowly - the music is inherently beautiful. Is it what Beethoven envisioned? Id say a resounding no

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Originally Posted by Montuno
Originally Posted by beeboss
Originally Posted by wr
What I do mind is the intellectually dishonest explanation for doing it, in this case. It amounts to a kind of fraud, in my opinion, and should be deplored for that reason, rather than because it's bizarrely far removed from normal performance practice.

That seems even stranger to me. You are evaluating a work of art not by the art itself but rather by what the artist says about it.

What a weird statement. Tempo markings are part of the score and thus part of the art. Just like note values, dynamics etc.

In this case, the tempo directive is Allegro. Metronome settings sometimes are given by the composer, but generally that is the exception.

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Originally Posted by wr
I don't mind experimentation per se - it's critical to the vitality of the culture, and I don't have to participate as a listener if I don't want to.

And yet as soon as any performer actually does experiment the reaction is uniformly negative. This thread is a microcosm of that attitude. That is the only reason I posted in the first place - to inject encouragement for anyone trying something a little different. Next people will be moaning about the lack of vitality in the classical scene and why the audience is so old and where is all the creativity and why is it that all the players sound the same and why there is no new music and why is it composers can't make a living anymore etc, but it will be too late (if it isn't already).

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Originally Posted by beeboss
Originally Posted by wr
I don't mind experimentation per se - it's critical to the vitality of the culture, and I don't have to participate as a listener if I don't want to.

And yet as soon as any performer actually does experiment the reaction is uniformly negative. This thread is a microcosm of that attitude. That is the only reason I posted in the first place - to inject encouragement for anyone trying something a little different. Next people will be moaning about the lack of vitality in the classical scene and why the audience is so old and where is all the creativity and why is it that all the players sound the same and why there is no new music and why is it composers can't make a living anymore etc, but it will be too late (if it isn't already).
I like this interpretation for this moment.
The art should create an emotional change for a tiny population. In this case they did. It shouldn't be accepted by a large population. Hate is also an emotion.
If we look into the history of art, many brilliant artists had a very tragic life, but they influenced many people after their death.


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Originally Posted by Sweelinck
Originally Posted by Montuno
Originally Posted by beeboss
Originally Posted by wr
What I do mind is the intellectually dishonest explanation for doing it, in this case. It amounts to a kind of fraud, in my opinion, and should be deplored for that reason, rather than because it's bizarrely far removed from normal performance practice.

That seems even stranger to me. You are evaluating a work of art not by the art itself but rather by what the artist says about it.

What a weird statement. Tempo markings are part of the score and thus part of the art. Just like note values, dynamics etc.

In this case, the tempo directive is Allegro. Metronome settings sometimes are given by the composer, but generally that is the exception.

Indeed. Which makes the chosen tempo even more puzzling, since it is everything but 'quick, lively and bright'.

And even though it is less precise than a bpm value would be, it is still part of the art, not something 'the artist says about it'.


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Originally Posted by beeboss
Originally Posted by wr
I don't mind experimentation per se - it's critical to the vitality of the culture, and I don't have to participate as a listener if I don't want to.

And yet as soon as any performer actually does experiment the reaction is uniformly negative. This thread is a microcosm of that attitude. That is the only reason I posted in the first place - to inject encouragement for anyone trying something a little different. Next people will be moaning about the lack of vitality in the classical scene and why the audience is so old and where is all the creativity and why is it that all the players sound the same and why there is no new music and why is it composers can't make a living anymore etc, but it will be too late (if it isn't already).

You do realise that playing at half speed because one is following the whole beat theory is anything but experimentation, don't you?


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Originally Posted by Montuno
Originally Posted by beeboss
Originally Posted by wr
What I do mind is the intellectually dishonest explanation for doing it, in this case. It amounts to a kind of fraud, in my opinion, and should be deplored for that reason, rather than because it's bizarrely far removed from normal performance practice.

That seems even stranger to me. You are evaluating a work of art not by the art itself but rather by what the artist says about it.

What a weird statement. Tempo markings are part of the score and thus part of the art. Just like note values, dynamics etc.
With this view, the instrument is even more important part of the art.
It means for example Busoni's Bach transcriptions is not respecting that part of the art, and so do Liszt's Paganini, beethoven transcriptions.
What is art? something matches with your mental model or something doesn't match to your mental model?


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Originally Posted by Montuno
You do realise that playing at half speed because one is following the whole beat theory is anything but experimentation, don't you?

They say they did as an experiment.

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If success vs. failure is decided beforehand rather than afterwards, it's not an experiment.

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You do realise that playing at half speed because one is following the whole beat theory is anything but experimentation, don't you?
Anything would be quite broad, but I agree it was not an experiment. It was a demonstration of how the piece would sound if a moderately obscure theory of how metronome timings once were specified is applied to a metronome spec given by an editor of a score long after the composer was dead, and maybe even long after the whole beat theory is believed by its proponents to have been in use.

I prefer a tempo for the 1st movement consistent with the composer's directive of "Allegro", but everyone is entitled to their own aesthetic.

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A rare performance I could not blame someone for taking leave. What was musical? Where was some tension. Someone has been in pandemic isolation too long.

Last edited by dhull100; 03/28/21 07:00 PM.
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