2017 was our 20th year online!

Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 3 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments.
Over 100,000 members from around the world.
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

Shop our online store for music lovers
SEARCH
Piano Forums & Piano World
(ad) Piano Sight Reading
train piano sight reading with your iPhone or iPad
(ad)
Best of Piano Buyer
 Best of Piano Buyer
(ad)
Pianoteq
Steinway Spiro Layering
(ad)
Wessell Nickel & Gross
PianoForAll
Who's Online Now
51 members (Buzz209, Dfrankjazz, Akaitsuki, c++, accordeur, CaseyVancouver, 11 invisible), 535 guests, and 451 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
(ad)
Estonia Pianos
Estonia Pianos
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Hop To
Page 1 of 3 1 2 3
Joined: Mar 2021
Posts: 5
E
EZhou Offline OP
Junior Member
OP Offline
Junior Member
E
Joined: Mar 2021
Posts: 5
We are looking to purchase a grand piano under 6' and really liked a 2004 Schimmel K169T for its rich sound. Also we read on this forum that generally pianos made by Schimmel considered to be of good quality. We had our piano technician do an evaluation and he came back with the following concerns:

1. The keyslip gap is not uniform. It is warped to the point that the gap in the middle keys is only a very small sliver (5/1000th of an inch) while at either ends, it's 1/16th of an inch. The worry is
if there is any more warping, the middle keys would be stuck.
2. "Unusual amount of corrosion" on treble strings. Discoloration on bass strings.
3. Some corrosion on the duplex scale as well.
4. Bridge made out of plywood vs solid wood.
5. The key tops seem to be not well finished.

The technician's general impression is that the quality of the build doesn't correspond to the class category that the piano is supposed to be in. (The asking price is CAD $27,000/ USD $21,300)

The problem is - we really like the sound of the piano!

Are we asking for trouble here by buying this piano? Or are some of the things listed "normal?" The keyslip gap especially is concerning as we were told it would be very, very difficult to fix.

Any feedback would be appreciated! Thank you.




-

Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 1,294
1000 Post Club Member
Offline
1000 Post Club Member
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 1,294
Any piano of any level of quality can be found in any condition when it’s 16-17 years old, depending how it was cared for.

All the corrosion mentioned implies an environment with high humidity for a period of its life. This would also relate to the warping.

A lot of builders use plywood with veneers because it’s more stable than solid wood, though someone else will have to confirm plywood regarding the bridge on that model that year.

It’s tough because when you find a piano that sounds and feels the way you want, one’s instinct is to dismiss other important criteria. If your tech implies that it’s too expensive for what they discovered, you might just have to pass on this one.


I do music stuffs
Yep, I have a YouTube channel!

Current:
1998 PETROF Model IV Chippendale
LEGO Grand Piano (IDEAS 031|21323)
YAMAHA PSR-520

Past:
2017 Charles Walter 1500 in semi-polish ebony
1991 Kawai 602-M Console in Oak
Joined: Jan 2015
Posts: 961
T
500 Post Club Member
Offline
500 Post Club Member
T
Joined: Jan 2015
Posts: 961
There will be other pianos where you really like the sound and that aren't a potential money pit. This piano has not been well cared for and you don't want to be the ones to deal with its problems!


2001 Petrof 125 -> 2002 Petrof IV -> 1999 Bösendorfer 225
Joined: Aug 2018
Posts: 6,676
L
6000 Post Club Member
Offline
6000 Post Club Member
L
Joined: Aug 2018
Posts: 6,676
I think the Schimmel Konzert grands have been updated since 2004. The piano you are looking at sounds as though the condition of that particular piano is not good.
It is a pity since you really like the sound. I presume the corrosion on the treble strings is rust ?
I agree with twocats I would not buy a piano with those problems. If you like the sound then the bridge must "work"
whatever it's made of. However this piano seems to be in poor condition.


https://www.pianobuyer.com/article/review-schimmels-updated-konzert-series-grand-pianos/

Last edited by Lady Bird; 03/09/21 12:46 AM. Reason: missing text
Joined: May 2015
Posts: 7,830
Silver Subscriber
7000 Post Club Member
Offline
Silver Subscriber
7000 Post Club Member
Joined: May 2015
Posts: 7,830
Since you were careful enough to hire a piano technician, you should listen to the finding of that technician, otherwise you will be wasting your money and inheriting problems by buying this piano. I sympathize that you really like the tone but liking it doesn’t compensate for the problems your tech found.

Please make the hard decision and walk away—you really will find a well-maintained piano that has great tone.

You really will!! And then you will be so grateful you walked away from this one.


"Music, rich, full of feeling, not soulless, is like a crystal on which the sun falls and brings forth from it a whole rainbow" - F. Chopin
"I never dreamt with my own two hands I could touch the sky" - Sappho

It's ok to be a Work In Progress
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 137
A
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
A
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 137
From my experience (if not out of date, because it has been 3-4 years since I played Schimmel grands last time), the shortest model of Schimmel Konzert grand (K169 in the past and K175 thereafter) didn't give me what I expected that much. I prefer my K132 better. For the K195 and above, it is a different world. Wish there has already been improvement of this model, because there're other makes which do greater job at this length (even shorter).

Joined: Aug 2018
Posts: 6,676
L
6000 Post Club Member
Offline
6000 Post Club Member
L
Joined: Aug 2018
Posts: 6,676
Originally Posted by aesop
From my experience (if not out of date, because it has been 3-4 years since I played Schimmel grands last time), the shortest model of Schimmel Konzert grand (K169 in the past and K175 thereafter) didn't give me what I expected that much. I prefer my K132 better. For the K195 and above, it is a different world. Wish there has already been improvement of this model, because there're other makes which do greater job at this length (even shorter).
The review by the pianist contributor to Piano Buyer is however quite impressive. The condition of this piano I think just makes it really not worth considering.
I remember I once went to look at a used Seiler SE upright ( made in Germany upright) from 2012 .The strings had severe rust .
When I tried to close the fallboard it just would not close properly, it seemed as though it was warped !
The practice pedal was broken and just dumped inside the piano. When ever I look at used pianos I always come across these ruined pianos. ( do not understand why ? )

Last edited by Lady Bird; 03/09/21 03:22 AM. Reason: missing text
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 137
A
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
A
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 137
Originally Posted by Lady Bird
The review by the pianist contributor to Piano Buyer is however quite impressive. The condition of this piano I think just makes it really not worth considering.
I remember I once went to look at a used Seiler SE upright ( made in Germany upright) from 2012 .The strings had severe rust .
When I tried to close the fallboard it just would not close properly, it seemed as though it was warped !
The practice pedal was broken and just dumped inside the piano. When ever I look at used pianos I always come across these ruined pianos. ( do not understand why ? )
Well, there's nothing wrong with the 169/175s I played, but their dynamic range were shallower and their sounds tenser and less fabulous compared to the bigger ones of the same series. I think there are always people who have limited room to place the piano and this size is especially fit for them (to me a larger grand in a small room is not good for practice). For the price I seek for more accordance of tone and touch with the full sized concert model. But yesterday I heard a newly uploaded video by classic pianos. In the video the K175 seems as fine as the K195:

Last edited by aesop; 03/09/21 04:07 AM.
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 137
A
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
A
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 137
Quote
But yesterday I heard a newly uploaded video by classic pianos. In the video the K175 seems as fine as the K195:
Ah, it is a K195 in the video. In my memory there's a K175, but there's not. There's a C189 and a C169, and the C169 sounds fine. Really curious to find out (or read feedbacks about) what the newly made K175 is like.

Last edited by aesop; 03/09/21 04:22 AM.
Joined: Nov 2014
Posts: 590
D
Platinum Subscriber
500 Post Club Member
Offline
Platinum Subscriber
500 Post Club Member
D
Joined: Nov 2014
Posts: 590
Post the same question in the piano technician sub forum. I would be interested in their opinion. For me I would run and not walk, but I’m hardly qualified to say that. Ask the techs in that forum. Good luck!!

Joined: May 2001
Posts: 12,458
Platinum Subscriber
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Offline
Platinum Subscriber
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 12,458
Just a quick comment here,

The piano seems to be showing effects of high humidity, however it needs a piano technician to tell you if the pianos been affected beyond some corrosion, and of course, does that corrosion affect the performance of the piano.

I should mention that almost all bridges are laminated. Neither Schimmel, nor any other piano that I can think of, has ever used plywood for their bridges. If this term was used by the piano technician that examined the piano, then either he doesn’t know much or he may have ulterior motives. Is he trying to point you elsewhere?

My 2 cents,


Rich Galassini
Cunningham Piano Co.
Phila Area
(215) 991-0834 direct
rich@cunninghampiano.com
Learn more about the Matchless Cunningham
The Science Channel on our piano restoration
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 1,294
1000 Post Club Member
Offline
1000 Post Club Member
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 1,294
Yes, laminated was the word I was thinking of!

This thread is going exactly how I thought it would go, though. I have always felt...suspect...about Schimmel pianos in general, especially now that they aren't all made in Germany, yet people are unknowingly under the assumption that they are. But I was suspect before, too. Especially when a dealer around here was selling a barely-used-German-one for a very low price.


I do music stuffs
Yep, I have a YouTube channel!

Current:
1998 PETROF Model IV Chippendale
LEGO Grand Piano (IDEAS 031|21323)
YAMAHA PSR-520

Past:
2017 Charles Walter 1500 in semi-polish ebony
1991 Kawai 602-M Console in Oak
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 137
A
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
A
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 137
I should add that the K169 itself is actually a charming and characteristic model. When I search for my first grand, I was seriously considering it. But Sauter Alpha160 took my fingers and heart at my first playing, with its more multi-dimensional and fabulous sound. If the smallest Schimmel K grand met my desire just as the K189/195 did, maybe I would have a Schimmel grand and a Sauter upright now. laugh

Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 137
A
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
A
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 137
Originally Posted by aesop
If the smallest Schimmel K grand met my desire just as the K189/195 did, maybe I would have a Schimmel grand and a Sauter upright now. laugh
I'm more than satisfied with the sound of my K132. For the touch it's also very good and doesn't lack anything for my playing but anyway, upright is upright. The feelings of touch on K195 is so cool and comfortable. wink

Joined: Jun 2020
Posts: 107
P
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
P
Joined: Jun 2020
Posts: 107
Build quality is not the problem. Based on your technician's observations, the piano was in a high humidity environment for a long time, and subject to swings. Was this piano at a beach house or close to a river or lake? Or somewhere "down south?" It's a real shame that the owner of a K169 didn't see fit to take care of it. I would not buy this piano. There are too many red flags.

For reassurance, regarding the bridge, it's called laminated, not plywood. The tech should know better than to call it plywood. All or nearly all piano bridges are made of laminated wood; some are further topped by a solid piece but that is not too common. Some names make a big deal out of that but IMHO it's more marketing than reality.

Schimmels are excellent quality and a 16 year old Schimmel treated well and kept in good condition is unlikely to show much of any kind of wear. The Konzert models are made in Germany. Classic models are also made in Germany but some of the case parts come from the Schimmel plant in Poland. I see nothing undesirable about that. Of the less expensive lines Vogel (discontinued) & Wilhelm Schimmel were/are made at the Schimmel plant in Poland; and Fridolin Schimmel by Pearl River in China; the former May Berlin was also made in China but I'm not sure it was Pearl River.. And although Pearl River acquired Schimmel in 2016, I've seen no evidence of degradation as a result. Let's try to stay clear about the diversity of Schimmel pianos.

Last edited by Pianosearcher; 03/09/21 11:28 AM.
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 4,019
4000 Post Club Member
Offline
4000 Post Club Member
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 4,019
Point of clarification, Schimmel's bridge cap is horizontally laminated wood rather than a solid cap. I see no quality downside to this as it offers increased resistance to cracks or deformation vs. a solid cap. Solid caps are primarily used because a) they work well and b) they can be carved by hand. A laminated cap has the advantage that it is easier to source suitable wood but the disadvantage that it has to be carved by machine. Schimmel invested in the CNC machinery necessary to carve/notch the bridges.

In general, bridge roots are either solid or vertically laminated. Plywood may be technically correct as a general term for laminated wood, but the connotations are often weighted.

The strings may or may not be able to be freshened up. Without photos, it is difficult to gauge the severity of the corrosion. The keyslip could be a victim of humidity or just a victim of polyester shrinkage. There are several potential solutions to prevent the keys from sticking that are relatively simple repairs, but probably no way to simple way to reverse the warping.

Keytops can be cleaned and buffed. Sharps can be dyed.

There is a cost for this. Up to you to see if it's a good value in the end.

The technician's and your questions about the condition are valid and need context to determine severity/cost to fix. The question about the "build quality" is not validated by any of the expressed concerns above. If there are other specific concerns about the build, that would be worth explaining...Schimmel while very good, is not perfect...things can happen but they were not enumerated above. It's kind of like writing off BMW because a used car has bent fender and rust from salted roads.


Sam Bennett
PianoWorks - Atlanta Piano Dealer
Bösendorfer, Estonia, Seiler, Grotrian, Hailun
Pre-Owned: Yamaha, Kawai, Steinway & other fine pianos
Full Restoration Shop
www.PianoWorks.com
www.youtube.com/PianoWorksAtlanta
Joined: Mar 2021
Posts: 5
E
EZhou Offline OP
Junior Member
OP Offline
Junior Member
E
Joined: Mar 2021
Posts: 5
Hello everyone,

Thank you VERY MUCH for all of the detailed replies. They are massively helpful.

Below are some photos: 1-3 on the the difference in keyslip gaps, with 3 showing how narrow it is in the middle, 4 showing the key top edge roughness, 5 and 6 string corrosion and 7 showing a different angle on the keyslip gap.

Does the keyslip gap seem like an extreme amount of warping?

[img]https://ibb.co/kxzFkXx[/img]
[img]https://ibb.co/KWbxY7q[/img]
[img]https://ibb.co/jWh0kDd[/img]
[img]https://ibb.co/M8dLk0N[/img]
[img]https://ibb.co/z2K2X7X[/img]
[img]https://ibb.co/GnW84Lf[/img]
[img]https://ibb.co/BqpzC6N[/img]

Last edited by EZhou; 03/09/21 02:40 PM.
Joined: Aug 2018
Posts: 6,676
L
6000 Post Club Member
Offline
6000 Post Club Member
L
Joined: Aug 2018
Posts: 6,676
So did someone drop thier coffee over the keyboard.Then clean up with water and soap. I do not think I have ever seen that before with any piano.

Last edited by Lady Bird; 03/09/21 04:30 PM. Reason: missing text
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 1,294
1000 Post Club Member
Offline
1000 Post Club Member
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 1,294
Originally Posted by Lady Bird
So did someone drop thier coffee over the keyboard.Then clean up with water and soap. I do not think I have ever seen that before with any piano.
People with grubby hands not washing them before playing. Or someone dropped a potted plant on the keyboard.


I do music stuffs
Yep, I have a YouTube channel!

Current:
1998 PETROF Model IV Chippendale
LEGO Grand Piano (IDEAS 031|21323)
YAMAHA PSR-520

Past:
2017 Charles Walter 1500 in semi-polish ebony
1991 Kawai 602-M Console in Oak
Joined: Jan 2015
Posts: 961
T
500 Post Club Member
Offline
500 Post Club Member
T
Joined: Jan 2015
Posts: 961
Originally Posted by SonatainfSharp
Originally Posted by Lady Bird
So did someone drop thier coffee over the keyboard.Then clean up with water and soap. I do not think I have ever seen that before with any piano.
People with grubby hands not washing them before playing. Or someone dropped a potted plant on the keyboard.

It's grubby hands. I make sure to wash before I touch my piano but I've seen a lot of pianos in practice rooms where the sides of the keys are all darkened from use.


2001 Petrof 125 -> 2002 Petrof IV -> 1999 Bösendorfer 225
Page 1 of 3 1 2 3

Moderated by  Ken Knapp, Piano World 

Link Copied to Clipboard
(ad)
Faust Harrison Pianos
Faust Harrison 100+ Steinway pianos
(ad)
Couch to Concert Hall
Couch to Concert Hall
(ad)
PianoDisc

PianoDisc
(ad)
Piano Life Saver - Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
(ad)
Mason & Hamlin Pianos
New Topics - Multiple Forums
Ringing overtones on certain notes
by Will M - 04/17/21 07:25 PM
Young Chang U-121 Age and Price
by sansandreas - 04/17/21 06:59 PM
A detailed review for Pianoteq 7 Pro
by TheodorN - 04/17/21 06:50 PM
Question about Grand Piano dynamics range?
by Jojovan - 04/17/21 06:45 PM
Innie/Outtie Blues 2
by Dfrankjazz - 04/17/21 05:38 PM
Download Sheet Music
Virtual Sheet Music - Classical Sheet Music Downloads
Forum Statistics
Forums42
Topics206,361
Posts3,083,591
Members101,223
Most Online15,252
Mar 21st, 2010
Please Support Our Advertisers

Faust Harrison 100+ Steinways

Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver

 Best of Piano Buyer

PianoTeq Bechstein
Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers

Virtual Sheet Music - Classical Sheet Music Downloads



 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
| Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter |


© copyright 1997 - 2021 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5