2022 our 25th year online!

Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 3 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments.
Over 100,000 members from around the world.
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

Shop our online store for music lovers
SEARCH
Piano Forums & Piano World
(ad)
Pianoteq
Steinway Spiro Layering
(ad)
Piano Life Saver - Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
(ad)
Wessell Nickel & Gross
PianoForAll
Who's Online Now
67 members (ambrozy, accordeur, anotherscott, bob@pei, Damien PG, 15 invisible), 738 guests, and 292 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
(ad)
Estonia Pianos
Estonia Pianos
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Hop To
Page 3 of 4 1 2 3 4
Joined: Jun 2013
Posts: 4,841
P
4000 Post Club Member
Offline
4000 Post Club Member
P
Joined: Jun 2013
Posts: 4,841
Originally Posted by Frédéric L
It is the first video where i hear about a 1024 resolution velocity. It surprised me since an extended velocity is not exported through MIDi nor recorded (we can read the internal memory with Yamaha Musicsoft Downloader). I have never hear or read anything from Yamaha about it.

You’re probably right. This particular reviewer (dealer) tends to ‘enhance’ things here and there.

I believe he might also be one of those claiming the action in the AG is that of a concert grand.

Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 3,699
3000 Post Club Member
Offline
3000 Post Club Member
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 3,699
Originally Posted by Pete14
You’re probably right. This particular reviewer (dealer) tends to ‘enhance’ things here and there.

I believe he might also be one of those claiming the action in the AG is that of a concert grand.
If he tends to enhance things, that’s explain all ! smile

I have read many things about the action : from a C1, from a C3... what I believe is that when I play the Moonlighting Sonata and my fingers get close to the fallboard, they get tired easily. I guess a real CFX would be nicer.

Last edited by Frédéric L; 02/27/21 06:30 PM.

http://www.sinerj.org/
http://humeur-synthe.sinerj.org/
Yamaha CLP150, Bechstein Digital Grand, Garritan CFX, Ivory II pianos, Galaxy pianos, EWQL Pianos, Native-Instrument The Definitive Piano Collection, Soniccouture Hammersmith, Truekeys, Pianoteq
Joined: Sep 2019
Posts: 892
500 Post Club Member
Offline
500 Post Club Member
Joined: Sep 2019
Posts: 892
Well, I admit this thread caught me off guard!. Due to time zone difference, I have read it all this morning...

First, a confession: I am guilty of VST hoarding eek

Then, my reasoning (you know, what you say yourself to keep your conscience quiet): I can't have a grand at home currently (no place for it). And, yes, my Yamaha U3 fills some gaps, but not all. So, with an investment still very far from a real grand, I can have a decent experience of what it would be, sound wise, and even can enjoy sounds of pianos I will never even touch.

About the VPC1, it has its quirks. Velocity seems to be not as uniform as you may wish and think on a premium controller... This is perhaps the main problem to enjoy smooth playing as you need to somewhat hide that problem playing with the velocity curve. But, otherwise, it has a nice keybed and I like it.

But... I understand your simplicity path and your desire to get rid, even temporarily, of all the associated mess thumb

Good luck on your endeavour!


Yamaha U3H
Kawai VPC1
...plus some other DPs, synths, controllers and VSTs

[Linked Image]
Joined: Jul 2020
Posts: 55
S
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
S
Joined: Jul 2020
Posts: 55
I’m enjoying my P515 and Garritan CFX while I continue my 6 month wait for the NV10 to arrive.

I don’t find myself fiddling with the VST settings atall after the initial couple of weeks. I just boot up and play. However I do run it via Reaper so I can apply a fixed per note velocity gain correction for the few quiet notes in the garritan CFX library.

Dunno how I stumbled on it but the combo of touch curves I’ve selected seems to give me much more dynamic control than I used to have with the P515 alone set to Hard2. Much better for Chopin and Debussy.

I’m generally happy with the touch of the P515 although the 85g weight makes it difficult to control velocities close to the fallboard. But you get used to it. However I did an AB comparison of the P515 & NV10 in a store last year: After 10 minutes on the NV10 the 515 felt like a cheap plastic toy in comparison. So roll on Garritan plus NV10.

Last edited by Showpan2; 02/28/21 09:09 AM.
Joined: Aug 2020
Posts: 301
F
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
F
Joined: Aug 2020
Posts: 301
Interesting, I seem to handle that different. I searched for sounds that I like and ended up with Pianoteq and the True Keys pianos (because they were fairly cheap). I selected presets I liked for each of them and since then when I sit down to play I choose one of the pianos for the day and play with it. I never bothered to really search for more, in the end it's mostly my skills that limit the sound and hardly the piano.

The only thing I added later is a better reverb, the internal VST reverbs aren't all that good, but apart from that I don't fiddle with the sounds. Turns out the people who made those VSTs are better at that then I am.

Joined: Feb 2014
Posts: 1,309
1000 Post Club Member
Offline
1000 Post Club Member
Joined: Feb 2014
Posts: 1,309
Originally Posted by mmathew
I guess I had a problem, or I didn't quite understand and accept what 'working' meant. A typical example of my thoughts and flow...

- At first I had only Garritan CFX. And like you said, I set it up and selected Player defaults, nothing else, and it worked GREAT. I played with it for almost 2 weeks.
- Then I started thinking that it's too bright maybe? Then I started to think about 'touch curves'. The first fiddling was with the curve. Nothing sounded good.
- Then reset the curve back to normal and select some other presets that referred to 'dark', 'mellow' etc. These presets sounded fine so I played using a couple of these presets for some time.
- Then I started to wonder - how do those YouTube videos sound so great and so 'spatial'? Have I set up my monitors right, do I have the right cables? Or since it sounds great on the headphones, I should continue with headphones alone.
- Maybe I should get the VSL Steinway since they sounded so great and 'spatial'.
- I should go with some headphones with the widest range, high impedance, and of course headphone amps.
- A sound card/interface will fix all my problems.
...

Truth: there were/are no problems. I just can't seem to put these settings and customizations to a side and focus on playing.

Oh the marketing boys of Yamaha, Roland, Kawai etc. are doing such a great job. Offering us solutions to problem that are not there. 1000's of different models to choose from, and not getting any happier. Every new model a bit better(?) than the previous... Sad reality.

Last edited by johan d; 03/01/21 07:22 AM.
Joined: Dec 2020
Posts: 196
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
Joined: Dec 2020
Posts: 196
Originally Posted by FloRi89
Interesting, I seem to handle that different. I searched for sounds that I like and ended up with Pianoteq and the True Keys pianos (because they were fairly cheap). I selected presets I liked for each of them and since then when I sit down to play I choose one of the pianos for the day and play with it. I never bothered to really search for more, in the end it's mostly my skills that limit the sound and hardly the piano.

The only thing I added later is a better reverb, the internal VST reverbs aren't all that good, but apart from that I don't fiddle with the sounds. Turns out the people who made those VSTs are better at that then I am.
+1

Just out of curiosity, which reverb did you get? I was looking at something called Altiverb 7 yesterday; seemed interesting!


"I think it's the excitement only a free man can feel; a free man at the start of a long journey, whose conclusion is uncertain." -- Morgan Freeman's character, "Red", in The Shawshank Redemption
Joined: Aug 2020
Posts: 301
F
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
F
Joined: Aug 2020
Posts: 301
Originally Posted by SeaDrive
Originally Posted by FloRi89
Interesting, I seem to handle that different. I searched for sounds that I like and ended up with Pianoteq and the True Keys pianos (because they were fairly cheap). I selected presets I liked for each of them and since then when I sit down to play I choose one of the pianos for the day and play with it. I never bothered to really search for more, in the end it's mostly my skills that limit the sound and hardly the piano.

The only thing I added later is a better reverb, the internal VST reverbs aren't all that good, but apart from that I don't fiddle with the sounds. Turns out the people who made those VSTs are better at that then I am.
+1

Just out of curiosity, which reverb did you get? I was looking at something called Altiverb 7 yesterday; seemed interesting!

Yea I checked out Altiverb, too. But too a little too pricey for my taste. In the end I settled for Inspirata Lite, that was free in December: https://www.inspiredacoustics.com/en/products/inspirata-workstation#overview

Little ressource hungry, but the sound is great. There seems to be a demo version for Altiverb 7 btw, but you have to contact their support for that and you need an iLOK2 key.

My alternative is Valhalla Room, also really great.

Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 2,554
2000 Post Club Member
Offline
2000 Post Club Member
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 2,554
Originally Posted by mmathew
What a depressing post. Thx for reading anyway.

In 2014 I ended up with a similar result. I got a Kawai ES100 as a controller for Pianoteq and Ivory II American Concert D, which were all cheap enough to not break the bank. For MIDI input and a high quality low-latency listening experience I got myself a Steinberg UR22 audio interface.

Within their specifications everything worked very well, however after a weeks of fiddling and dissatisfaction I decided that the Kawai EX coming up right after power on was just fine for practice, purchased the furniture stand and retired the studio gear. My later purchase of a Yamaha P-515 followed the same philosophy.

Seven years forward and I'm back to VSTs ... with my guitar. Tube amps are loud and expensive and amp simulations are not. The UR22 with its instrument input I never planned using back then got a new purpose.

However now my studio looks much worse than your first photo, so I already ordered a Vox Amplug to get more practice time in without being chained to a computer. It will be as easy as picking up my favorite acoustic guitar. And just for the record: Acoustic instruments are way better and more inspiring than any VST emulation. Full stop. You realize that when you suddenly come up with your own song ideas and run to the desk to write them down. Never had that happen to me while listening to gigabytes of samples and modeled sine waves.

Of course the danger lurks around the corner: G.A.S. and pedal addiction are severe issues not unlike hoarding piano VSTs. smile


Yamaha P-515
Joined: Jan 2021
Posts: 725
500 Post Club Member
OP Offline
500 Post Club Member
Joined: Jan 2021
Posts: 725
Thank you for sharing your story JoeT! I like the sharing of experiences on this thread. It does look like VSTs work really well for folks who know how to use it to their fullest potential.

As a beginner (well, it's been about a year and a half I blame only myself I am still at that stage):
-- At some basic level, let's say I am currently experimenting with mellow sounds - all the AG piano sounds sound almost the same with subtle differences, to my ears. And I know these subtle differences matter, but should they be a blocker to learning? Absolutely not. That's where I think I need to put my head at and focus more on the learning and adequately enough on the sound. Of course if the sound is uninspiring, the learning will fail as well, or proceed slowly at best. But I think today's instruments by Yamaha, Kawai and Roland provide at least a few sounds/configurations (fact is they provide more, if one knows how to use them) that should serve the learner with good palette of sounds that inspire and help learning.

Now look at the other end of this here: https://vi-control.net/community/th...e-piano-playability.102324/#post-4705646
Here is a pro, who sold all his acoustic and went VST and produced world-class recordings out of the VSTs. I'll leave you guys to read through that, but I quote:

"
Petrof, I sold two acoustic grands a few years ago, and replaced them with an all digital setup, using Garritan CFX initially, and now VSL Synchron CFX & Steinway. Absolutely no regrets, it handles anything I can throw at it, and I am unaware of any delay whatsoever. The videos below were recorded live, 2017 iMac, so my rig is not a space ship

-- some videos --

Short version? There's no way I could make recordings like these with an acoustic setup (well, I could, but I'd need tens of thousands of dollars in microphones, with piano tuners and sound engineers on standby, and a $250,000 instrument. My wife is not likely to agree to that.)

Dive in, you won't regret it.

"

Last edited by mmathew; 03/01/21 04:15 PM.

A man must love a thing very much if he practices it without any hope of fame or money, but even practice it without any hope of doing it well. Such a man must love the toils of the work more than any other man can love the rewards of it.
G. K. Chesterton
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 2,554
2000 Post Club Member
Offline
2000 Post Club Member
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 2,554
I well aware that VSTs have their place in production (I even wrote that in one of the previous threads about that topic). That's what these tools are meant for: Saving money on expensive studio time, faking the results. That's just fine for something like a movie score in a small budget production. No need for a real Steinway (and a pianist who knows how to play it) every time. This is how industrialization, mass production and economies of scale work.

Venturing out beyond the piano got me some audio engineer experience, so I know my way around with gear, especially in the live domain. However for a practicing musician looking for inspiration that stuff isn't useful. My acoustic instruments nowadays see 90 % of the practice time and only an acoustic piano would nibble off from that amount.


Yamaha P-515
Joined: Jan 2021
Posts: 725
500 Post Club Member
OP Offline
500 Post Club Member
Joined: Jan 2021
Posts: 725
Originally Posted by JoeT
However for a practicing musician looking for inspiration that stuff isn't useful. My acoustic instruments nowadays see 90 % of the practice time and only an acoustic piano would nibble off from that amount.

+1000. I am with you. I just posted that above to show that VSTs work well for folks who need it and know how to use them to their intended purpose. I didn't mean any kind of offence, please JoeT :-( and forgive me if my post sounded like it.


I want to get to a point where I can label myself an 'amateur but not bad piano player.' And I am sure I'll get myself an acoustic. I should have listened to the first salespersons I met with at a piano showroom - who, after talking to me for about an hour said that I am an 'acoustic guy.' At that time, I thought he was just trying to sell me stuff. But boy was he right.


A man must love a thing very much if he practices it without any hope of fame or money, but even practice it without any hope of doing it well. Such a man must love the toils of the work more than any other man can love the rewards of it.
G. K. Chesterton
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 2,554
2000 Post Club Member
Offline
2000 Post Club Member
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 2,554
Originally Posted by mmathew
I didn't mean any kind of offence, please JoeT :-( and forgive me if my post sounded like it.

You didn't offend me the slightest. I was just providing a little context, because otherwise readers fill it with assumptions. I enjoy getting "my sound" and "my mix" out of gear and my bandmates dig it (and audiences too, but rarely show up during these trying times). I say that as someone who was just struggling getting his ASIO drivers running and setting buffer sizes correctly seven years in the past.

Quote
I should have listened to the first salespersons I met with at a piano showroom - who, after talking to me for about an hour said that I am an 'acoustic guy.' At that time, I thought he was just trying to sell me stuff. But boy was he right.

But you have to agree that this really sounds like typical sales talk. wink I've could have gone all acoustic in 2014 (given the budget), but would have missed out on the UR22, the bundled Cubase and the valuable experience I got from it. Sometimes the most easy and straightforward path isn't the most rewarding one. I bet your time with the VPC1 and years to come with the P-515 will pay off as well some way or another.

My own P-515 didn't go to waste after I was finished practicing classical piano, it's a great accompaniment tool and the SmartPianist app is a blast.


Yamaha P-515
Joined: Feb 2021
Posts: 1,236
H
1000 Post Club Member
Offline
1000 Post Club Member
H
Joined: Feb 2021
Posts: 1,236
Originally Posted by mmathew
...I am an 'acoustic guy.' ...

Maybe, whether we are aware of it or not, at the end of the day we all are?!

Whenever there are pianos at the local charity/recycling store, if they are not too far gone, I sit at them and play. Recently there was a 100+ year old Polish one, issues and all, and boy did it feel nice and musical. I almost couldn't tear myself away from it.

Early fall, in a quality specialist piano store, I played a Steinway concert grand and a Yamaha C7 grand side by side, and it was soooo good an experience that I couldn't rip a smile off my face for weeks.

End of October, I sat down at a 9ft Belgian concert grand (Chris Maene) right after a concert I had attended, where six highly gifted pianists had just played it. The last of them had really intensely immensely unbelievably THUNDERED away at it and the piano was still steaming from that, so to speak. I played it for a bit and it was so, so sweet an experience. And it played so light and fluid as if it was just water under my fingers. Boy oh boy I won't lightly forget that evening.

Or, when I think of simply plucking one open string on a proper acoustic double bass, just let it ring and listen... that is so captivating, so utterly satisfying.

Oh well, for now the only way to be able to at least play *something* is my Roland/Modern U/interface/hifi setup. And I am grateful it is here with me. And I dream of those real, true instruments, until the day dawns where...

Cheers and happy contemplating,

HZ

Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 5,865
D
dmd Offline
5000 Post Club Member
Offline
5000 Post Club Member
D
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 5,865
Originally Posted by mmathew
- Above all: spending more time on everything other than learning
- ...

For me, this would be the most significant reason to stop spending so much time with VSTs.

It can slow your progress as a player considerably when half your time is spent "tinkering" with the sound generator.


Don

Kawai MP7SE, On Stage KS7350 keyboard stand, KRK Classic 5 powered monitors, SennHeiser HD 559 Headphones
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 14,439
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 14,439
This logic is suspect ...
Originally Posted by dmd
Originally Posted by mmathew
- Above all: spending more time on everything other than learning
For me, this would be the most significant reason to stop spending so much time with VSTs.
It can slow your progress as a player considerably when half your time is spent "tinkering" with the sound generator.
Doing anything other than piano takes time away from the piano and slows your progress.
The solution is simple: Stop tinkering with the VSTs. Just use them. Time lost = none.

Joined: Sep 2020
Posts: 453
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
Joined: Sep 2020
Posts: 453
Originally Posted by Frédéric L
Surely my 2002 CLP150 needed virtual piano. My N1X no anymore.

I just load a virtual piano sometimes to get something different. But usually, I prefer to just wait the booting time of the piano and start playing, that’s it.

Do you no several 100 layers virtual pianos ? I only know one (VSL Vienna Imperial).
I'm not sure if this is a correct estimation of my part but I wonder what are the advantages of having such an expensive and big DP when there are used upright pianos around the same price:
https://www.pianomart.com/buy-a-piano/piano-ads?AdSearchForm[piano_type_id]=3

Of course, I'm not considering the headphone advantage which admittedly is on its own a big one, however not for all people and circumstances.


Search the web privately with DuckDuckGo .
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 3,699
3000 Post Club Member
Offline
3000 Post Club Member
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 3,699
Why the N1X : I use it mostly with headphones, then don’t care of the lack of frame/strings/soundboard.


http://www.sinerj.org/
http://humeur-synthe.sinerj.org/
Yamaha CLP150, Bechstein Digital Grand, Garritan CFX, Ivory II pianos, Galaxy pianos, EWQL Pianos, Native-Instrument The Definitive Piano Collection, Soniccouture Hammersmith, Truekeys, Pianoteq
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 9,768
9000 Post Club Member
Offline
9000 Post Club Member
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 9,768
Originally Posted by dmd
Originally Posted by mmathew
- Above all: spending more time on everything other than learning
- ...

For me, this would be the most significant reason to stop spending so much time with VSTs.

It can slow your progress as a player considerably when half your time is spent "tinkering" with the sound generator.

Maybe for some. But when you get older, studying piano is taxing. Half an hour later, you head's screaming in protest. Bite-sized chunks of learning; bit more on keeping up on stuff already learned, and then . . .and then . . . .along came fiddle time. Not talking about violins . . . .


"I am not a man. I am a free number"

"[Linked Image]"
Joined: Feb 2015
Posts: 116
A
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
A
Joined: Feb 2015
Posts: 116
Originally Posted by mmathew
But the animal in me lurks and I can feel it. I can't deny that I will stray and will seek more, not knowing that everything I need to learn (and in fact, more) is already there.

What a depressing post. Thx for reading anyway.
Hi mmathew, thanks for the depressing post, that was actually a very interesting point of view.
It's OT, but I would like to know about the desktop in the upper photo, since the whole setup looks very neat. I am looking for a very similar way to arrange my DP and my laptop, but the prices for such solution seem to be skyrocketing.


Kawai ES-920
Yamaha P-121
Yamaha P-90
Page 3 of 4 1 2 3 4

Moderated by  Piano World 

Link Copied to Clipboard
(ad)
Best of Piano Buyer
Piano Buyer - Read the Articles, Explore the website
(ad)
PianoDisc

PianoDisc
(ad)
Faust Harrison Pianos
Faust Harrison 100+ Steinway pianos
(ad)
Mason & Hamlin Pianos
New Topics - Multiple Forums
Questions regarding Regulation
by rickshapiro - 05/23/22 11:17 AM
Laptop Holder Advice - Korg Grandstage
by skelly - 05/23/22 11:09 AM
A fairly rare digital sensor mechanism
by Gombessa - 05/22/22 10:59 PM
How To Become Best Sight Reader Ever?!
by joe3701 - 05/22/22 07:45 PM
Download Sheet Music
Virtual Sheet Music - Classical Sheet Music Downloads
Forum Statistics
Forums43
Topics213,191
Posts3,193,851
Members105,344
Most Online15,252
Mar 21st, 2010
Please Support Our Advertisers

Faust Harrison 100+ Steinways

Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver

 Best of Piano Buyer

PianoTeq Bechstein
Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers

Virtual Sheet Music - Classical Sheet Music Downloads



 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
| Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter | MapleStreetMusicShop.com - Our store in Cornish Maine


© copyright 1997 - 2022 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5