2017 was our 20th year online!

Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 3 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments.
Over 100,000 members from around the world.
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

Shop our online store for music lovers
SEARCH
Piano Forums & Piano World
(ad) Piano Sight Reading
train piano sight reading with your iPhone or iPad
(ad)
Best of Piano Buyer
 Best of Piano Buyer
(ad)
Pianoteq
Steinway Spiro Layering
(ad)
Wessell Nickel & Gross
PianoForAll
Who's Online Now
46 members (Beansparrow, BlakeOR, Dfrankjazz, c++, chopinetto, dhull100, 10 invisible), 391 guests, and 410 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
(ad)
Estonia Pianos
Estonia Pianos
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Hop To
Page 1 of 2 1 2
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 538
H
hag01 Online Content OP
500 Post Club Member
OP Online Content
500 Post Club Member
H
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 538
Is it only me, or do tensions sound good only, or at least mostly, in the upper voices?

Usually when I try incorporate tensions in the middle\lower voice, it's just sound like I'm playing another chord, which change the nature of the song\chord progression.

I guess there is a reason why tensions are also called "upper structure", but for some reason, I never saw in books which cover jazz music theory, that it is mentioned that tensions should be placed in the upper voices mostly.

(ad)
Piano & Music Accessories
piano accessories music gifts tuning and moving equipment
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 4,056
N
4000 Post Club Member
Offline
4000 Post Club Member
N
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 4,056
No, this is a universal law arising from the acoustic structure of sound - the system of overtones.
[Linked Image]

In the first and second groups, only chord pitches are concentrated, starting from the third, tensions is added, and gradually not only all non-chord notes appear, but also sounds outside of any temperament.You can check the strength of the overtones if someone plays the lower 5 harmonics on the keys, and you simultaneously sit (just be careful!) on the right side of the keyboard.

Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 4,056
N
4000 Post Club Member
Offline
4000 Post Club Member
N
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 4,056
Another question: where and how to place these tensions. Basically, tensions can be located at the top, middle and bottom of chords, with the exception of the bass register, where they are never placed - it just spoils the sound of the chord ;for example, Keith Jarrett loved voicing types like GCFABb - F#BEG#A , etc. This does not work in cases where there is a melody in the upper voice.
The middle register of the chord is the best for tensions: GDAB \ C # DF # B .
The tension in the lower part of the chords is suitable if the lower voice (not bass) is at least C3. This information is found in books on jazz arrangement.

Last edited by Nahum; 02/28/21 07:40 AM.
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 1,509
B
1000 Post Club Member
Offline
1000 Post Club Member
B
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 1,509
Originally Posted by hag01
Is it only me, or do tensions sound good only, or at least mostly, in the upper voices?

I think you can add them anywhere if you work to make them sound good. Of course context is very important but a chord that could be very dissonant can be made to sound sweet with careful attention to playing the different notes at different volumes. There are some theoretical ‘low interval limits’ for different chord tones which I remember learning once but I forgot them as soon as I realised that real music doesn’t obey those rules. You have to just explore for yourself and find what works for you in the context of whatever it is that you are playing.

Joined: May 2009
Posts: 588
K
500 Post Club Member
Offline
500 Post Club Member
K
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 588
Originally Posted by beeboss
Originally Posted by hag01
Is it only me, or do tensions sound good only, or at least mostly, in the upper voices?

I think you can add them anywhere if you work to make them sound good. Of course context is very important but a chord that could be very dissonant can be made to sound sweet with careful attention to playing the different notes at different volumes. There are some theoretical ‘low interval limits’ for different chord tones which I remember learning once but I forgot them as soon as I realised that real music doesn’t obey those rules. You have to just explore for yourself and find what works for you in the context of whatever it is that you are playing.

Yes and also beware of voice leading. It depends on what comes before and after. The chord might sound strange in isolation but in context it makes sense.

Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 4,056
N
4000 Post Club Member
Offline
4000 Post Club Member
N
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 4,056
Originally Posted by beeboss
I think you can add them anywhere if you work to make them sound good. Of course context is very important but a chord that could be very dissonant can be made to sound sweet with careful attention to playing the different notes at different volumes. There are some theoretical ‘low interval limits’ for different chord tones which I remember learning once but I forgot them as soon as I realised that real music doesn’t obey those rules. .

Originally Posted by KlinkKlonk
Yes and also beware of voice leading. It depends on what comes before and after. The chord might sound strange in isolation but in context it makes sense.

https://disk.yandex.ru/i/kUabiGJBMeBMMQ

Does everything sound good? Voice-leading is, of course, respected.

Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 1,509
B
1000 Post Club Member
Offline
1000 Post Club Member
B
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 1,509
Originally Posted by Nahum
Does everything sound good? Voice-leading is, of course, respected.

Context is everything. And tastes vary.



Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 4,056
N
4000 Post Club Member
Offline
4000 Post Club Member
N
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 4,056
Originally Posted by beeboss
Context is everything. And tastes vary.
The taste is an elusive jelly, but we can talk about style and stylistic balance. Based on this, I see more stylistic homogeneity of Jarrett than the pianist in the video , including ups and downs.

Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 1,509
B
1000 Post Club Member
Offline
1000 Post Club Member
B
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 1,509
Nobody does voice leading and voicing like Keith. Genius of the elusive jelly

Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 266
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 266
In order for the upper structure notes to be heard as tensions they need to be supported by chord tones, especially 3 and 7 usually played below the tension notes.

You can intermingle the tensions with the chord sound to some extent but for the most part keep the tensions in your RH and the chord tones in the LH.

[Linked Image]UST triads


Bill
bill@jazzpianoonline.com
www.JazzPianoOnline.com
Online Jazz Piano Lessons
Yamaha C7 Disklavier DC7ENSPRO
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 4,056
N
4000 Post Club Member
Offline
4000 Post Club Member
N
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 4,056
Upper structures - it is not only based on the chord (dominant) 7, but also based on any triads or seventh chord ; we are simply talking about combinations of two groups of overtones (Richie Beirach talks about three): from the lower octaves and in higher ones, starting with the fourth in overtones system.

[Linked Image]

Last edited by Nahum; 03/01/21 03:14 AM.
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 4,056
N
4000 Post Club Member
Offline
4000 Post Club Member
N
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 4,056
Originally Posted by beeboss
Nobody does voice leading and voicing like Keith. Genius of the elusive jelly

When I heard this recording for the first time, I began to constantly practice in this kind of playing . I highly recommend starting daily training with this.

Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 4,056
N
4000 Post Club Member
Offline
4000 Post Club Member
N
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 4,056
I completely forgot about the book on my shelf:
UST Jazz Piano Chord Voicings Vol. 2: All possible triads of upper structures in the IIm7 V7 progression - by Ariel J.Ramos.

Joined: Feb 2014
Posts: 155
J
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
J
Joined: Feb 2014
Posts: 155
Originally Posted by Nahum
Originally Posted by beeboss
Context is everything. And tastes vary.
The taste is an elusive jelly, but we can talk about style and stylistic balance. Based on this, I see more stylistic homogeneity of Jarrett than the pianist in the video , including ups and downs.

These chords are so nice. Wish my ears could pick out the notes better. Is there reference for explaining or
how to id advanced clusters?

Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 1,509
B
1000 Post Club Member
Offline
1000 Post Club Member
B
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 1,509
Originally Posted by joggerjazz
These chords are so nice. Wish my ears could pick out the notes better. Is there reference for explaining or
how to id advanced clusters?

I don't think you can explain it. There is no theory that can help play like this. I think Keith is just hearing the melody and some of the tonalities and leaving his hands to fill in some other notes. That he can make it sound so perfect is like magic.

Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 4,056
N
4000 Post Club Member
Offline
4000 Post Club Member
N
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 4,056
Originally Posted by joggerjazz
These chords are so nice. Wish my ears could pick out the notes better. Is there reference for explaining or
how to id advanced clusters?
In jazz pedagogy, there is a hierarchy of mastering jazz voicings (and there are also those who claim that jazz harmony doesn't exist - everything is borrowed from classical music!):

triads closed;
sevenths closed ;
sevenths with substitute tensions closed ;
open positions : drop 2, drop 3 , drop 2&4 ,spread .
upper structures;
clusters formed from combinations of chord and non-chord notes.

And all according to strict rules, avoid - non-avoid.


BS! What we hear from K. Jarrett is not chords or voicings but phonisms (sounds). Here are involved finger patterns and pre-hearing, and the reaction to what has already sounded, and the feeling of tensions and resolutions; and all this is at a subconscious level.

I began to try this, and record the result on audio. Interestingly, the sound changes over time, although each time the conscious control is turned off whenever possible.

https://disk.yandex.ru/d/ZXwkVDF0iQhhs
https://disk.yandex.ru/d/2_pGLqfB4X2ykQ

The interval between recordings is 6.5 years.

Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 23,299
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 23,299
Pardon my ignorance (and pardon that I'm not a regular over here, which is why I don't know things like this) -- but what's "tensions"?

(Does it mean dissonances? Or just bringing out that voice stronger?)

Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 4,056
N
4000 Post Club Member
Offline
4000 Post Club Member
N
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 4,056
Originally Posted by Mark_C
Pardon my ignorance (and pardon that I'm not a regular over here, which is why I don't know things like this) -- but what's "tensions"?

(Does it mean dissonances? Or just bringing out that voice stronger?)
Tritones and sevenths create dissonances, but are not considered in jazz as a tensions .
Chord tensions
(in the textbooks) - non-chord steps of 9 (9b, 9 #), 11 (11 #), 13 (13b), which replace chord pitches one step lower and distributed between 7th chords so that they sound "good".

Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 23,299
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 23,299
Originally Posted by Nahum
....Chord tensions [/b](in the textbooks) - non-chord steps of 9 (9b, 9 #), 11 (11 #), 13 (13b), which replace chord pitches one step lower and distributed between 7th chords so that they sound "good".

Thanks!

Chopin's mazurkas have a lot of 9th's, 11th's, and 13th's, but I don't know if those would fit what you're saying.

(I think Chopin's 11th's and 13th's are always in the top voice, and the 9th's almost always.)

Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 4,056
N
4000 Post Club Member
Offline
4000 Post Club Member
N
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 4,056
Originally Posted by Mark_C
Thanks!

Chopin's mazurkas have a lot of 9th's, 11th's, and 13th's, but I don't know if those would fit what you're saying.

(I think Chopin's 11th's and 13th's are always in the top voice, and the 9th's almost always.)

In classical music theory, of course, there are categories of non-chord pitches that create dissonance; however, there are rules for both the preparation of such dissonance, as well as their mandatory subsequent resolution in the next chord pitches. These rules also apply to Chopin's music.
In jazz, dissonance is an indispensable element, which corresponds to dissonances in rhythm - syncopations . The roots of jazz dissonance are from Africa.

Last edited by Nahum; 03/07/21 11:08 AM.
Page 1 of 2 1 2

Link Copied to Clipboard
(ad)
Faust Harrison Pianos
Faust Harrison 100+ Steinway pianos
(ad)
Couch to Concert Hall
Couch to Concert Hall
(ad)
PianoDisc

PianoDisc
(ad)
Piano Life Saver - Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
(ad)
Mason & Hamlin Pianos
New Topics - Multiple Forums
Recommend me a trouble-free Garritan CFX computer!
by Gombessa - 04/21/21 08:12 PM
Which one do you like - ABRSM vs RCM??
by Pikka - 04/21/21 06:35 PM
Sauter o Bechstein
by Luis Miguel - 04/21/21 05:57 PM
Pricing information for new Steinway/Yamaha?
by lct14558 - 04/21/21 04:10 PM
Download Sheet Music
Virtual Sheet Music - Classical Sheet Music Downloads
Forum Statistics
Forums42
Topics206,453
Posts3,085,089
Members101,266
Most Online15,252
Mar 21st, 2010
Please Support Our Advertisers

Faust Harrison 100+ Steinways

Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver

 Best of Piano Buyer

PianoTeq Bechstein
Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers

Virtual Sheet Music - Classical Sheet Music Downloads



 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
| Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter | MapleStreetMusicShop.com - Our store in Cornish Maine


© copyright 1997 - 2021 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5