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I, personally, think trying to squeeze in a 5'5" grand will be a huge waste; a U3 or that Petrof will outshine (any? most?) 5'5" grands. This is all on paper, of course. Your real life mileage may vary.
I respectfully disagree.
A grand is a completely different experience. Both sound wise and touch wise.
Just like a 5'5" grand is a very different experience than a 6'2" grand or a 7'1" grand or a 9'1" grand, or 43" console is a very different experience than a 45" studio or a 52" professional. In all those sizes, including uprights, the key length changes, the string length changes, soundboard size changes, panels can be opened and closed, room positioning, decor in the room, etc.
There are uprights like my Walter that have more soundboard, string length, and key length than a lot of small grands. And when I close my eyes, it darn right sounds and feels like a grand piano with my placement from the wall, etc. It sounds and feels better than any small grands I have played, for sure.
Uprights, even in 2021, are still so severely under-estimated and underrated. I am not sure why that is.
Even the action in an upright vs grand isn't as black and white as it used to be. Upright action technology is very fast and a lot of uprights are starting to use fast-repetition technology, and some even have double-escapement, too (as evident by a tech's thread here a few years back).
Your signature suggests that you are a tech yourself, though, so I assume I am preaching to the choir with all of this.
The advantage of a grand are twofold: 1) potentially better action, and 2) potentially longer strings. However, there's more to it.
First, upright actions have so dramatically improved in the last 50 years that a good upright action like Kawai's MIII, especially the K500 and up with its longer keys, is noticeably faster and overall better than a lot of grands. And second, you have to get a grand over 6' to beat out the tall uprights in speaking string length. Other users on the forum have provided examples like the following:
Kawai K800 upright (134 cm) - speaking length is 128 cm Steinway M grand (170 cm) - speaking length is 125 cm Kawai K300 upright (122 cm) - speaking length is 120 cm Yamaha U1 upright (122 cm) - speaking length is 119 cm Boston GP-163 PE II grand (163 cm) - speaking length is 119 cm Steinway S grand (155 cm) - speaking length is 116 cm Essex EGP-155F grand (155 cm) - speaking length is 112 cm
So high end grand > high end upright > low end grand > low end upright. I've played on a lot of much pricier grands that didn't hold a candle to a nice Yamaha, Kawai, or Seiler upright. And in the 5-20k range new, you definitely get more bang for your buck with an upright. After 20k grands start to be more the way to go. Oh and grands look sexier of course. =)
And second, you have to get a grand over 6' to beat out the tall uprights in speaking string length.Other users on the forum have provided examples like the following:
Kawai K800 upright (134 cm) - speaking length is 128 cm Steinway M grand (170 cm) - speaking length is 125 cm Kawai K300 upright (122 cm) - speaking length is 120 cm Yamaha U1 upright (122 cm) - speaking length is 119 cm Boston GP-163 PE II grand (163 cm) - speaking length is 119 cm Steinway S grand (155 cm) - speaking length is 116 cm Essex EGP-155F grand (155 cm) - speaking length is 112 cm
So high end grand > high end upright > low end grand > low end upright.
I believe your analysis is wrong. If I remember correctly, I made a post a while ago comparing the speaking length of the longest bass string on tall verticals and the Steinway O grand. As best as I can remember the speaking length of the model O(why did you choose the model M?) was longer than any of the lengths for the tall verticals and the model O is shorter than 6'. Another problem with your analysis is that only a small number of makers even make a 53" tall vertical. "High end" and "low end", whether for a vertical or grand, applies to the price not the size.
I copied this from elsewhere on the forum by user Iaroslav Vasiliev. I had no reason to doubt it and I don't have access to measure myself. 134cm/53" uprights are rare but 52" are a standard size, and would still place ahead of all the 5'5" class grands. Steinway themselves made the statement before the turn of the century (and the 5'10" O) that a true grand cannot be any less that 6' in length.
It's also a generalization, not a firm rule. And there's been a trend in grands over the years to have shorter speaking length, and may different scale setups even from the same brand such as Steinway have done things differently. Specifically the trend towards a shorter speaking length was discussed here:
Bottom line is even discounting price modern uprights compare extremely favorably in tone and action to modern baby grands. After you get above 6' the grands start to run away with it. But before that you better be doing a very detailed comparison and not just relying on the grand to be better "because grand."
I copied this from elsewhere on the forum by user Iaroslav Vasiliev. I had no reason to doubt it and I don't have access to measure myself. 134cm/53" uprights are rare but 52" are a standard size, and would still place ahead of all the 5'5" class grands. Steinway themselves made the statement before the turn of the century (and the 5'10" O) that a true grand cannot be any less that 6' in length.
It was probably Vasiliev's post that I corrected in my earlier reply about the Steinway model O that I mentioned. I do remember that after correcting whoever's post it was the poster thanked me for my figures and agreed with me. You should check the Steinway site for the speaking length of the model O. Since the model O is around 3.5" longer than the model M it's reasonable it would more than make up the 3 cm difference between the K800 and the model M.
Now you have gone from 6' grands down to 5'5" grands and that's a very different statement. Finally, I think many would disagree with you that a good mid-priced (Yamaha, Kawai, Hailun, Cunningham, Perzina) but even mid five foot grand has an action inferior to high end verticals. The only exception might be verticals specifically designed to mimic grand actions but these are extremely rare.
I would not compare even high end uprights so casually to high end grands .(so casually.) Even comparing a high end upright to a Japanese grands, there are bound to be problems. For a start how many K800's have you played ? How many Steinways M's have you played. ? Besides upright pianos are just different to grands.
Last edited by Lady Bird; 02/25/2108:07 PM. Reason: spelling
Welcome to the forums fibbi. Trying to answer your questions:
"So question is, between Yahama U3 and Petrol P125 G1, which one would you pick? Is YUS5 worth the $5K jump from U3 price?"
I would pick the Petrof over the U3, but that is just a personal preference as I like the tone of the Petrof. I'm not suggesting that the Petrof is in any sense better than the U3, you have to see which *you* like the most. For me the YUS5 isn't worth the jump from the U3 but I really liked the Yamaha SE132 which is more expensive again but to me worth the difference.
"So what do you think Yamaha U1 , U3, YUS5 and Petrof P125 G1 any opinion on them? Appreciate any comments!"
They are all good pianos, you won't go wrong with any of them, but you need to play them and discover your preference. The U1 to U3 is a big price gap but there is also a big difference in the piano as well. YUS5 I didn't find that much different to the U3, SE132 changed the tone quality and was really nice putting it in a mid place between the typically brighter Yamahas and the typically more mellow Petrofs.
Re grands/uprights. If you have space for a grand there is an overlap in the sort of 10K->20K range where you can get either a really good upright or a budget grand so another choice to make there. Above 20K there is still an overlap but it is only with the really special 'exotic' uprights in that price category so the balance of value perhaps shifts to the grands, but again it is still a choice.
Good luck and happy piano hunting.
A Seiler SE132 would be a price equal to the Sauter 130 or a Schimmel. I think at the North Vancouver branch there is 120 C Schimmel on sale. If you persist you may be able to get it at a reasonable price.Of course living in North Vancouver, myself I know the dealer that the OP is probably visiting . So yes I think a U3 is very good and well made .The YUS5 to me certainly is even better but a higher price tag. They tend to be more consistent , and have a nicer tone. Petrof uprights (like all European pianos) are more mellow .I am not sure if the response is that good, I thought not. I would advise going to Richmond to see the Kawai dealer. The Kawai K500 is an exquisite instrument for its price. To a lesser degree the K300 is excellent. The only place that sell Seiler SE and the cheaper ED Seiler is Showcase pianos. They do not, by the way give good discounts. ( only 10 % off some of of these high end models ) They do sell pianos like Seiler, Grotrian, Fazioli and Bechstein so I do not think it much worth to go there except for the ED Seiler.( the Indonesian replica of the Seiler SE models) This piano had a good review on Piano Buyer and is good for its price tag. They also sell Wilth Steinberg.I wish you well with your piano search !
Last edited by Lady Bird; 02/25/2110:25 PM. Reason: spelling
There is also Paceys downtown, they do sell Schultz Polmann. which is a similar price to the U3 or YUS5. Apart from that they are also Mason and Hamlin dealers .And if you have the money -- Bluthner.I do not like the Irmler uprights designed by Bluthner. ( but are Asian made ), but they do sell Hassler as well. ? I am not sure of the price of those however.
A Seiler SE132 would be a price equal to the Sauter 130 or a Schimmel. I think at the North Vancouver branch there is 120 C Schimmel on sale. If you persist you may be able to get it at a reasonable price.Of course living in North Vancouver, myself I know the dealer that the OP is probably visiting . So yes I think a U3 is very good and well made .The YUS5 to me certainly is even better but a higher price tag. They tend to be more consistent , and have a nicer tone. Petrof uprights (like all European pianos) are more mellow .I am not sure if the response is that good, I thought not. I would advise going to Richmond to see the Kawai dealer. The Kawai K500 is an exquisite instrument for its price. To a lesser degree the K300 is excellent. The only place that sell Seiler SE and the cheaper ED Seiler is Showcase pianos. They do not, by the way give good discounts. ( only 10 % off some of of these high end models ) They do sell pianos like Seiler, Grotrian, Fazioli and Bechstein so I do not think it much worth to go there except for the ED Seiler.( the Indonesian replica of the Seiler SE models) This piano had a good review on Piano Buyer and is good for its price tag. They also sell Wilth Steinberg.I wish you well with your piano search !
Thank you for the input! I just went to Showcase today. And Yes I am really surprised with the ED Seiler (good surprise). Price point is very good too but I was turn off with Indonesia made. I'm not too thrilled about Grotrian. Fazioli doesn't have upright I don't bother trying. Like Bechstein too but of course not consider that price point. Next stop I will visit Kawai in Richmond. May make a trip to N Van for Schimmel on weekend.
Here is a review by terminaldegree, one of our members of the ED Seiler. Of course the German one is better but the price really is more than double the ED Seiler.
Actually the Schimmel Classic 120 is not mentioned online anymore.It may have sold .So I would phone ahead of time and ask. Also ask if they can have it tuned for your visit .One can not tell much about a piano if they are out of tune. This is a reasonable request and they should have it prepared for you.
Maybe you have missed this part from OP's first post:
Originally Posted by fibbi
I am planning to get a new piano. Well, first to allow better dynamic for my kid to practice, and also hopefully better recording for the competition/exam etc...And of course for my own enjoyment too.
I'd like to have a grand but space is an issue.
IMO, a Kawai GL-30 with 5'5" size would fit in a small room, and it is within OP's budget.
And IMO, it will be much more suitable for a competition/exam recording.
And finally, a Kawai GL-20 with 5'2" size will definitely fit that room.
Pianobuyer SMP is 18,190 USD for GL-20.
You might expect a 15% to 30% discount from that price.
.
I think the OP has made it clear that he is looking for an upright not a grand hasn't he?
You may personally prefer grands but although the GL-20 grand is a nice piano it struggled to keep up with my K800 upright when they were played next to one another. Now the Shigeru SK-7 also played alongside hugely outclassed my upright but I suspect it would also leave most other grands behind as well :-) It isn't as simple as a grand is better than an upright or vice-versa, there is a middle ground in size and price where either can have the advantage depending on the individual models and personal preferences.
