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Are you saying that the unique chords are just taking place as regular chords plus almost random added modal scale tones and those chords exist not as harmonically functional but just modal textures?
Your first part of the question contradicts another: "unique" phonisms are not ordinary functional chords with added non-chord pitches from the scale (diatonic tensions), but really modal textures - even if they formally look like a regular triad or seventh. To create such chords, it is necessary to preset a bass line based on the same mode (although experiments have been carried out with polymodality between melody, bass and chords). It is clear that the bass in these conditions is defines not the inversions of chords, but inversions of modes. You can read about what forces control the vertical in the absence of functions here:
I visited your link and did read through some of it, thanks.
The original post with the Rick Graham recordings; are they modal? To me they seemed modal. I found that they did not hold my interest, similar to 16th century church music.
Because the guitar sounds half a step lower than it should be - a fact worth mentioning.
Not worth mentioning at all, in fact completely irrelevant to visalias original enquiry, as was your raising the subject of non-standard guitar tuning.
With all due respect, I decide what to mention and what not. For the pros: I thought the guitarist changed the internal tuning of the strings like fusion guitarists do. However, the relative tuning is observed.
The original post with the Rick Graham recordings; are they modal? To me they seemed modal. I found that they did not hold my interest, similar to 16th century church music.
16th century church music? Are you talking out your rear end? What interests you?
Church music historically had it's own set of modes, which I know very little about, except that they existed. Emenelton has expressed his opinion, and right or wrong, you should respect that.
There is absolutely no excuse for your last comment. I suggest you apologise.
Simon
Casio PX-S3000 Korg SV2S (73)
ABRSM Grade 7 distinction 2023. Decent blues/rock Pianist. Try to play Jazz Piano, but pretty rubbish. Studying ABRSM grade 8 now.
I suppose it's just an inverted add9 chord. Never thought of it that way. And I suppose its sound isn't really that unique now that I think about it... unlike say a Minor7b5 chord!
The BGAD chord is not unique, like you say(I'd say not distinctive) but the Minor7b5 is.
Some historians characterize the end of the 16th Century's church music as the pinnacle of music composition and did not think there was any further progress music composition could make; it had all been done. That music was modal, tension, more tension, less tension but dominant harmony's development had to wait until the next century.
From what I understand from reading Nathum's link and some previous knowledge; The BGAD chord you brought up, is not a G add9 inversion chord but a collection of intervals that is built on a mode's specific scale step, noted as an inversion of the mode, with various intervals 'piled on'. When a sequence of modal chords are strung together, the levels of tension and no tension, as well as the bass line and melody, are the tools the composer has to work with.
The piece you referenced, I compared to 16th Century Church Music because of that.
lmao good grief. This is all about the chord that uses a tet-12 template of 0-3-8-10 (semitones from root) right?
That is, root, b3, #5, 7th.
Why are we into guitar tunings and 16th-century church music?
I know this sounds dismissive, but any impartial observer would be curious why the discussion isn't about exploring this particular musical pattern (0-3-8-10) and examples of when that chord has been of particular musical interest.
I can't follow this discussion very well, it seems like silverback gorilla nerd warfare.
Only in men's imagination does every truth find an effective and undeniable existence. Imagination, not invention, is the supreme master of art as of life. -Józef Teodor Konrad Korzeniowski
Not worth mentioning at all, in fact completely irrelevant to visalia's original enquiry, as was your raising the subject of non-standard guitar tuning.
With all due respect, I decide what to mention and what not.
And dire tonic reserves the right to say whether it's irrelevant or not.
I can't follow this discussion very well, it seems like silverback gorilla nerd warfare.
That's thanks to Nahum. This is what he started off with:
"You can symbolize these chords as you like, but they will not reflect the essence of these modal sounds (phonisms) in Ab Ionian and Db Lydian, which mix scale -like structures of seconds and chord structures of thirds - fourths - fifths . Therefore, we can talk about inversion of modes, but not of chords. This is neo-pop sound."
Whaaaaaaaaa?
He's either not socially aware enough to realise people won't understand this, or he's getting off on the fact that it's confusing people. I don't understand what all that means, but do you know how I know it's most likely waffle? Because he referred to tuning of the guitar when talking about modes. Completely irrelevant!
I don't know why people talk like this? Bloody well annoys me though. I feel sorry for Simon b who actually tried to make sense with him.
Originally Posted by hawgdriver
I know this sounds dismissive, but any impartial observer would be curious why the discussion isn't about exploring this particular musical pattern (0-3-8-10) and examples of when that chord has been of particular musical interest.
It turns out it's not a very commonly used chord. It's almost the same thing as a inverted major chord.
Nahum certainly doesn't post waffle. He's a professional musician, and from what I've seen of his posts on here he has a great musical ear, and he's certainly a terrific Pianist.
I consider my musical knowledge to be pretty good. I've studied music theory and history at a high level - 40% of my degree was studying music. His musical knowledge is far above mine.
Another point to bear in mind is that English is not his first language and I suspect that occasionally that means his written replies are not as clear as they would be in his native language.
The fact that you don't understand his reply doesn't mean a) it's wrong b) he's not socially aware, or c) that he's trying to confuse people deliberately.
It just means you don't understand.
Nahum contributes a lot to this forum. Do you?
Simon
Casio PX-S3000 Korg SV2S (73)
ABRSM Grade 7 distinction 2023. Decent blues/rock Pianist. Try to play Jazz Piano, but pretty rubbish. Studying ABRSM grade 8 now.
Just one more perspective. And I'm just offering observations, not looking for a fight.
I listened to maybe a couple of minutes of the first example of the original post. I believe what someone said sounded like 16th century music - was simply the use of things like "suspensions". And I believe I heard what might be labeled a "secondary dominant" but with a deceptive resolution. And yes, I could be mistaken - the gold standard would be sitting at the piano and playing along with the guitar to figure out what's going on.
It (the 1st guitar example) might sound old fashioned to someone depending on their musical experience. If someone were deep into the "modal jazz" (I think maybe Nahum touched on this) as in many of the 50's-60's Blue Note record label recordings. BUT, harmonic (or non-harmonic if one chooses to label them as such) tools like suspensions and passing harmonies are just tools of traditional Western harmony. I will venture to say that innovative composers used the same harmony tools - suspensions and passing harmonies anyway - with very modern sounding results. I'm thinking of Igor Stravinsky and Bela Bartok. But there are plenty of others. Keith Jarrett too.
One important point, in my view, is that harmonies need to be listened to in context - along with that comes before and what comes after. And the ears should be the determiners of what works - not some theory manual. Theory manuals are great. But the music must be HEARD - not simply read about. And full disclosure here, in my younger years my sight reading was poor and I often simply read about the harmony rather than playing and listening to it.
And (no offense intended here) if someone is identifying a 1st inversion C major chord with an added major 9th - as a minor chord.....that person should be hitting the piano, listening, and yes, struggling to hear what he is playing. Identifying a C major chord (1st inversion) as a minor chord is completely missing the point.
One thing no one can dispute. Nahum is a valuable resource on this forum.
An example: Stravinsky - Symphonies of Wind Instruments
The fact that you don't understand his reply doesn't mean a) it's wrong b) he's not socially aware, or c) that he's trying to confuse people deliberately.
It just means you don't understand.
I got the impression Visalia understood well enough an earlier straightforward reply to his question.
Quote
Nahum contributes a lot to this forum. Do you?
A vibrant forum thrives on questions as much as it seeks helpful answers. I hope Visalia hasn't been intimidated by this thread. He's grappling for answers.
Visalia clearly did not understand Nahum's reply. I can't be bothered to post or quote his comments again as it's water under the bridge.
Like you I hope Visalia returns to the Forum.
However, too often he posts questions here, and when the answers aren't what he wants (or beyond his understanding) he posts derogatory comments about the person whose made the effort in response.
He did it to me a year or 2 ago and he's done it to Nahum and one other person in recent months. Again I can't be bothered to go back through and site the example.
It's just not acceptable behaviour in my view.
Cheers
Simon
Casio PX-S3000 Korg SV2S (73)
ABRSM Grade 7 distinction 2023. Decent blues/rock Pianist. Try to play Jazz Piano, but pretty rubbish. Studying ABRSM grade 8 now.