Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Piano Forum European delivery programs for new pianos?

You might be surprised what $60k will get you in Europe.

It's been reported here that Sauter will deal with U.S. buyers directly.

Also, I think that there are more economical ways to ship than air freight. Most pianos travel on ships, if I'm not mistaken.

Yeah if I just took delivery in Europe to a friend's house and then arranged separate shipment, I would be assured of getting it to the USA, but certainly would not be able to avoid VAT.

Shame about the Audi program, though it was not something we looked into at the time, and we bought two Audis, though both after 2018 which is probably why I didn't even notice it had a program. I admit my interest is piqued by the new E-tron Q5, but....

Warranty work is a different matter. New pianos can sometimes need attention while they settle in . The Schimmel.I now have has had no problems. The Sauter needed a occasional warranty work.,.minor things like pedal
squeaks, a buzz .(actually not the piano
( However one never can know for certain with a piano )

No, if you take or ship your purchase abroad, you can claim back the VAT. This is very normal.

https://www.ricksteves.com/travel-tips/money/vat-refunds

And it adds up. VAT is about 20% in most European countries.

Yes, I've done that after spending time in Europe (I used to spend summers abroad, after living abroad for some time), but I just wonder if the transaction is completed after delivery of an item like that and therefore the VAT is un-reclaimable. Also, I don't know how to do that other than the thieves at the airport which take a ridiculous commission to give you back a portion of your VAT, and even that requires a decent coordination with a retailer already accustomed to setting up the transaction properly. I'm guessing the amount of money involved is worth trying to figure it out, though, even without the use of a service that handles it both on the purchase side and on the refund side.

There is always someone willing to take your money for something you can do yourself. And there's always someone ready to take as much money as you're willing to give them.

I've done this myself countless times, although admittedly the largest thing I ever bought was a bicycle (roughly 1500 USD).

The easiest way is to simply shop at a retailer who does it for you in advance, takes it out of the purchase price and you never pay it at all. Easy peasy. No worries about claiming it back.

Honestly, I'd be very surprised if in the European Union you couldn't find a piano dealer who offers this to customers who live in other countries.

For example, www.thomannmusic.com even lists prices w/o VAT and will calculate shipping online. International purchasing and shipping is not unusual.

My understanding is that the UK government has stopped the ability to claim back VAT.
Ian

Depending on your location there are dealers in North America that carry European brands. Or when you are able to travel, book a factory tour and then get it shipped. PianoWorld founder, Frank Baxter traveled to Estonia to pick out his L190. I found mine at my local Yamaha dealer. YMMV.

That was interesting so I researched the gov.uk site. You are absolutely correct Beemer, you cannot buy a piano as a private individual in the UK and then subsequently reclaim the VAT, you can only do that if the goods (piano) is a business item for business purposes.

However you can buy a piano from a UK dealer for delivery (export) to yourself at your address outside the UK, the dealer can then either reclaim the VAT or sell it as a zero VAT rated item in the first place. So it *is* possible to legally get that piano VAT free - you just have to do it the right way.

Call or write them an email and ask them, including any VAT questions. They are nice people.

Brexit has resulted in some ambiguities.
The good news is that it isn't English pianos that people are interested in.
There's no question about reclaiming or avoiding German VAT.

I think it is safer to buy a piano manufactured for your market. Climates vary around the world, and at least some manufacturers have mature programs to season the wood they use for the target market. Yamaha and Kawai have mature processes for this. I would want to buy a Yamaha, Kawai, or Boston piano manufactured for where I live. European climates may be similar enough to the US that there may not need to be a difference, but I'm not sure. And of course the US is not in a single climate.

At the very least, this should be investigated for a piano targeted for purchase.

As I understand it, the biggest risk would be putting a piano seasoned for a damper climate into service in a drier climate, but it may be more nuanced than that.

I suppose it depends very much where you live. I can imagine that Arizona gets very dry. Yes I would be worried about that. Yet I remember someone who bought a Sauter 122 in Germany ( in winter) He mentioned that the humidity can get as low as 20 C. To me in Vancouver that would be a reason for concern .

I just felt I had to correct this .The OP of this thread ( in the sub forum) said that where he lived in Germany the humidity could go down to 20% in winter ( not 20°C ???)

It was 36 years ago (1985). We bought our Boesendorfer 225 from a Paris dealer (Daniel Magne) who arranged for us to have a tour of the factories in Wiener Neustadt and Vienna, and pick our instrument from the four that were being tuned and voiced in the Vienna factory. We told the people what we wanted in terms of final voicing and left. Magne then arranged the shipping to Paris and then air freight to California including delivery and set up in our home. At the time, the US Dollar was very strong (the GBPound was about $1.10 USD) and there was also a major difference in price between the US and Europe. We bought the 225 for $24,000 including shipping to the US. I calculated with inflation, that would be the same as $57,000 today. Back then we paid for the piano in French Francs (before the Euro). The Boesendorfer price in the US was much, much higher than in Europe. There were some differences in price in different countries in Europe. France and Austria were very close in price and the UK was somewhat higher.

On entry to the US, customs did not charge any duty and we didn't have to pay US sales tax. Not sure about VAT back then.

I'm not sure of the price differential today between the Europe and the US. I don't think it is as much as then. Also all the European dealers we talked to were willing to bargain.

I always enjoy this story!

I see this Austrian listing in Klaviano.com:

https://www.klaviano.com/pianos-for...layersystem%5D%5B0%5D=&search=Search

It's got a 225 for USD 121,451.24. I don't know if they'd haggle on that, but remember you can claim back VAT, which is 20% and would put the price at about 98,000. (although I see some sites say that you can only claim back 15% in Austria, which would put it at about USD 103k).

30% off PB's SMP is about 119k.

Klaviano is just the tip of the iceberg. My parents (in fact, my entire family) still live in Austria, fairly close to Wiener Neustadt.
The Boesendorfer used pianos that can be had over their on local websites are INSANE. See here for under 14k Euros:

https://www.willhaben.at/iad/kaufen-und-verkaufen/d/boesendorfer-170-maechtiger-klang-428176708/

I'm making a salary in the US I'd never remotely get back home, but I wince every time I get a quote over here in the US for German or Austrian instruments.

I don't know why pianos are more expensive in the US than in most other countries. The gap is wider than what can be explained by US import duties on pianos or shipping charges in comparison to shipping elsewhere.