2017 was our 20th year online!

Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 3 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments.
Over 100,000 members from around the world.
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

Shop our online store for music lovers
SEARCH
Piano Forums & Piano World
(ad)
Spring Into Sound Sale
(ad)
Best of Piano Buyer
 Best of Piano Buyer
(ad)
Pianoteq
Steinway Spiro Layering
(ad)
Wessell Nickel & Gross
PianoForAll
Who's Online Now
34 members (Beowulf, AprilE, doctor S, antune, EB5AGV, clothearednincompo, BlakeOR, ejlamas, Artdealer718, 6 invisible), 378 guests, and 513 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
(ad)
Estonia Pianos
Estonia Pianos
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Hop To
Page 3 of 4 1 2 3 4
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 23,280
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Online Content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 23,280
Originally Posted by SonatainfSharp
Again, because you have to raise what is the new leading tone from the previous key to the current one when moving up a 5th to keep it a leading tone. The previous leading tone, which is now the 3rd, was already raised. That is all.

Right. smile

That's the only difference between the basic notes of any given key and its dominant, so it's the only note that needs to be changed -- and the needed change is to 'sharp' it, to make it into a leading tone.

However -- I can understand why this might not seem like an answer to many people, because in order for that to be meaningful, terms like "dominant" and "leading tone" have to be meaningful, and maybe not just meaningful but part of one's basic understanding of keys and harmony.

But, I'm not sure it's possible to give an explanation for it without using terms that depend on that kind of understanding.


P.S. Is your user name about Beethoven's F-sharp sonata? (That's one of my favorites.)

Joined: Sep 2015
Posts: 4,887
4000 Post Club Member
Offline
4000 Post Club Member
Joined: Sep 2015
Posts: 4,887
I'm not sure that terms like dominant and leading note have anything to do with it, necessarily. The circle of fifths would be the same if we were talking about the natural minor or any other mode.

It's interesting that we have so many equally valid ways to explain the same thing.

Last edited by johnstaf; 02/23/21 01:25 PM.
Joined: Feb 2021
Posts: 12
J
Junior Member
Offline
Junior Member
J
Joined: Feb 2021
Posts: 12
This question really opens a can of worms. In a sense, it's just a system, and as the others describe you can just think of the sharps and flats as accruing as you transpose the tonic/ionic along the circle of fifths. But the reasoning behind how that works, or what the circle of fifths even is in the first place, is much more complicated than can be relayed here. And it's worth noting that even internal to the system, they don't actually meet: you accumulate sharps and double sharps, but as you go up fifths, you never accumulate flats — it's just that at some point you've reached a key with the same "equivalent" notes in flats and you can switch over to the flat-based end of the spectrum. Most "circle of fifths" illustrations show this with an overlap on the bottom, where C♯ and D♭ are in the same part of the circle as interchangeable notations for the same key. There's nothing to prevent you from going to G♯ and beyond, but with this system it's just easier for everyone if you use A♭ instead.

The circle of fifths is at the heart of why an octave has twelve notes and why some notes on a piano are black and others are white. The circle of fifths is basically how we ended up with equal temperament. If you think about it, in the pythagorean sense, a fifth is a 3/2 fraction (the most perfect interval to the ear after the octave), which no matter how many times you multiply it, will never meet an octave—3/2 * 3/2 * 3/2 * 3/2, etc., will never meet a square of two, because it is accumulating 3s that can never be divisible by 2. Kyle Gann calls this the "Cosmic Joke". And so, before modern tunings, it was a spiral of fifths (or a lattice) rather than a circle. A circle of fifths only makes sense in a tempered tuning system like we mostly use today.

After twelve fifths (3/2 ^ 12 = 129.746…) you get something very close to the seventh octave (2 ^ 7 = 128), and the difference is the Pythagorean comma. Meantone temperament was about adjusting the fifths to get better-sounding thirds, but later well-temperament tunings were designed implementing irrational changes to some of the fifths so that you could effectively complete the circle of fifths after twelve of them. There are other numbers where the spiral of fifths comes close to meeting the octave (41, 53, 94, etc.), but they are a much less practical number of notes per octave to deal with (though some composers and mathematicians have found them interesting).

It is only once you complete the circle of fifths that it makes sense for C♯ and D♭ to be the same note. For most of musical history they were not the same thing.

I'm pretty light on my understanding of medieval music history, but I believe much of it was based on tetrachords or hexachords, which overlapped with increasing complexity. If your music never modulates (changes key), then thinking in terms of sharps and flats is unnecessary. If you are limiting yourself to a simple 5- or 7-note scale, and then you play a different piece using a different starting pitch, you can just call the tonic "C" each time and use the appropriately tuned instruments. But as the music becomes more complex, you have to "adjust" the pitches, to avoid wolf tones, and I think this is where accidentals started to come into the picture.

Keyboards really screw things up. You can't retune an organ for each piece, or use a different organ (or harpischord, etc.) whenever you want to change key — it's impractical. I'm not sure what the relationship is between the keyboard and the diatonic scale (whether the scale allowed for the invention of the keyboard, or whether the keyboard created the need for a diatonic scale), but at some point you end up with a system that is optimised for a C major scale with transpositions up or down a few fifths, with their corresponding flats and sharps (modifications to the note that preserves the ionic scale with reference to whatever starting point you're using). In the early keyboards, where sharps and flats didn't mean the same notes, you would see split keyboards, where half the black key between C and D was for C♯ and the other half was for D♭— in those days the fifths didn't meet in a circle yet, and you could only venture so far from C in either direction along the spiral before intervals started to sound really weird/awful and the system basically broke down.

The big innovation was well-temperament, where you could play something in any key and every interval sounded good. Bach famously celebrates this development with the Well-Tempered Clavier, writing a prelude and fugue in each major and minor key. At this point, the semitones weren't all quite the same, so each key sounded a bit different, but they were close enough to the same that they could be effectively interchanged with just a slight shift in the mood. And this is the moment when the fifths really do become a circle and you can go round and round as much as you like. Equal temperament sort of quietly snuck in a century later, at which point all the intervals really did become completely interchangeable.

Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 23,280
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Online Content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 23,280
Originally Posted by johnstaf
I'm not sure that terms like dominant and leading note have anything to do with it, necessarily. The circle of fifths would be the same if we were talking about the natural minor or any other mode...

Sure. I just meant that I don't know if it's possible to answer the question without using some terms of music theory -- if not the ones I used, then some other ones.

Joined: Sep 2015
Posts: 4,887
4000 Post Club Member
Offline
4000 Post Club Member
Joined: Sep 2015
Posts: 4,887
Originally Posted by Mark_C
Sure. I just meant that I don't know if it's possible to answer the question without using some terms of music theory -- if not the ones I used, then some other ones.

Probably. If not music theory, then terms from some other theory.

Last edited by johnstaf; 02/23/21 03:01 PM.
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 1,285
1000 Post Club Member
Offline
1000 Post Club Member
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 1,285
Originally Posted by Mark_C
P.S. Is your user name about Beethoven's F-sharp sonata? (That's one of my favorites.)
Way, way, way back when I came up with this name (we are talking over 20-25 years ago already), when I was composing tonal music, a "Piano Sonata in f-sharp minor" was going to be big very large scale work. I never got around to writing it because I was at an Anthony de Mare concert and I got to drive him back and forth to his hotel in my crappy Fiero, and from that moment forward I was inspired to compose and study modern (like written right now) music. I still think about circling back and writing that Sonata, though.


I do music stuffs
Yep, I have a YouTube channel!
Current:
1998 PETROF Model IV Chippendale
LEGO Grand Piano (IDEAS 031|21323)
YAMAHA PSR-520

Past:
2017 Charles Walter 1500 in semi-polish ebony
1991 Kawai 602-M Console in Oak
Joined: Oct 2018
Posts: 872
P
500 Post Club Member
Offline
500 Post Club Member
P
Joined: Oct 2018
Posts: 872
Interesting and thought-provoking discussion.
Now that we're there (I think) I'll add that the cycle of 5ths is something that I had heard of but never seriously considered. This is because from my guitar days I'm more used to using it the other way round as a cycle of fourths - for practising arpeggios (on the piano, that is) I find it a satisfying way of cycling through the keys using a (dominant) seventh arpeggio for the last of one key leading nicely into the next. Probably not original, probably not interesting come to think of it crazy

Last edited by petebfrance; 02/23/21 05:09 PM.

regards
Pete
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 385
S
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
S
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 385
Originally Posted by Sidokar
I am not sure that i fully understand what is the exact meaning of the question. Going up the circle of fifth is transposing the tonic by a fifth, ie taking G as a start note. Every note of the c scale is distant by an exact fifth of another note of the scale, except b which is at a distance of a diminished fifth. Going up you always sharpen the 4th note of the scale in the mode of C.

This by the way works if you take any mode. For example if you are in the mode of D and you want to transpose by a fifth to A, you would still need to sharpen F for the exact same reason. This is a characteristic of the diatonic scale, which contains only one triton. Going up you sharpen the first note of the triton. Going down you flat the second note of the triton.

An augmented fourth (or diminished fifth) is a tritone. Triton is Ariel's dad in "The Little Mermaid." wink grin

Joined: Feb 2019
Posts: 1,731
S
1000 Post Club Member
Offline
1000 Post Club Member
S
Joined: Feb 2019
Posts: 1,731
Originally Posted by scriabinfanatic
Originally Posted by Sidokar
I am not sure that i fully understand what is the exact meaning of the question. Going up the circle of fifth is transposing the tonic by a fifth, ie taking G as a start note. Every note of the c scale is distant by an exact fifth of another note of the scale, except b which is at a distance of a diminished fifth. Going up you always sharpen the 4th note of the scale in the mode of C.

This by the way works if you take any mode. For example if you are in the mode of D and you want to transpose by a fifth to A, you would still need to sharpen F for the exact same reason. This is a characteristic of the diatonic scale, which contains only one triton. Going up you sharpen the first note of the triton. Going down you flat the second note of the triton.

An augmented fourth (or diminished fifth) is a tritone. Triton is Ariel's dad in "The Little Mermaid." wink grin

No doubt about that !

Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 3,028
W
3000 Post Club Member
Offline
3000 Post Club Member
W
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 3,028
Originally Posted by CognitaP
Hi. Building on the previous posts the simplest answer to my understanding is that all major scales in the Ionian mode ( the diatonic scale) are built on the pattern of whole tones and semitones ( often referred to as half tones or half steps ) with the pattern being . WWH WWWH and by moving up the keyboard in 5ths or down the keyboard in 4ths keeps this pattern

So for example C to D is a whole tone ( whole step) D to E is a whole tone E- F is a half tone( a semitone or half step ) F to G is a whole tone G-A is a whole tone A-B a whole tone and B to C a half tone. This pattern shows the semitones fall on notes 3 going to 4 and on notes 7 going to 8 or 1 depending on how you count the scale

To keep the pattern going up the scale you start the next scale a fifth above the C which is G . So G is the starting note ( the tonic note) of the next scale the 3-4 note on this scale is the B-C. But to keep the pattern of whole tone and semitones the 6 note E does not go to the F but to the F# as the 6-7 are a whole tone 7-8 is then a semitone bringing the F# down to the G

The next scale is D ( 5 notes up from G) D-E is a whole tone, E-F# is a whole tone abs F# to G is a semitone as is the 3-4 note) G-A a whole tone A-B a whole tone B - C# is a whole tone and C# - D is a semi tone

As you see with the D major scale the pattern means you keep the previous sharp ( the F# in this case) and add another the C# in this case So each scale around the circle going up in sharps adds another sharp each time. Coming down the keyboard in flats you come down in 4ths so from C four notes down is F so this is your starting note for the next scale and following the same pattern of WWH WWWH the 3-4 semitone notes are A-Bb. the 7-8 semitone is E-F

It sounds complicated but it’s not one you understand the patterns.

The key to understanding the circle of fifths is remembering that it goes up in 5ths to keep the WWH WWWH pattern of whole tones and semitones and down in 4ths for the flats.

Yes there is probably some mathematical formula to this but I’m not concerned about this. All I’m concerned about is understanding how the pattern works and understand that going up keyboard in 5ths I’m adding sharps and coming down in 4ths I’m adding flats

Hope this helps explain why.

Originally Posted by pianoloverus
To me, this explains what happens but doesn't answer the question of why it happens. For example, when going from C major to G major, why does one only have to change one note(F to F#) to keep the WWHWWWH step relationship? And then going on to D major, why can one keep the notes from G major but change only one?

Originally Posted by SonatainfSharp
Again, because you have to raise what is the new leading tone from the previous key to the current one when moving up a 5th to keep it a leading tone. The previous leading tone, which is now the 3rd, was already raised. That is all.

Without wishing to take anything away from all the erudite contributions to this thread, nothing could be simpler than CognitaP's exposition, other than SonatainfSharp's statement or JohnStal's pairs of chords. Except perhaps pianoloverus's restatement of his original question, "For example, when going from C major to G major, why does one only have to change one note(F to F#) to keep the WWHWWWH step relationship?"

SonatainfSharp is correct, but "That is all" is not a satisfactory proof for a mathematician.

One way of looking at it is:

WWHWWWH is the step relationship starting from C, the first W corresponds to playing D
WWHWWHW is the step relationship for G played on the C major keys, the first W corresponds to playing A
WWHWWWH keeps the relationship for G by playing F#
WWHWWHW is the is the step relationship for D played on the G major keys, the first W corresponds to playing E
WWHWWWH keeps the relationship for D by playing C#
...
until each W goes sharp


Ian Russell
Schiedmayer & Soehne, 1925 Model 14, 140cm
Ibach, 1905 F-IV, 235cm
Joined: Feb 2019
Posts: 1,731
S
1000 Post Club Member
Offline
1000 Post Club Member
S
Joined: Feb 2019
Posts: 1,731
Originally Posted by Jun-Dai
I'm pretty light on my understanding of medieval music history, but I believe much of it was based on tetrachords or hexachords, which overlapped with increasing complexity. If your music never modulates (changes key), then thinking in terms of sharps and flats is unnecessary. If you are limiting yourself to a simple 5- or 7-note scale, and then you play a different piece using a different starting pitch, you can just call the tonic "C" each time and use the appropriately tuned instruments. But as the music becomes more complex, you have to "adjust" the pitches, to avoid wolf tones, and I think this is where accidentals started to come into the picture.

I'm not sure what the relationship is between the keyboard and the diatonic scale (whether the scale allowed for the invention of the keyboard, or whether the keyboard created the need for a diatonic scale), but at some point you end up with a system that is optimised for a C major scale with transpositions up or down a few fifths, with their corresponding flats and sharps (modifications to the note that preserves the ionic scale with reference to whatever starting point you're using). In the early keyboards, where sharps and flats didn't mean the same notes, you would see split keyboards, where half the black key between C and D was for C♯ and the other half was for D♭— in those days the fifths didn't meet in a circle yet, and you could only venture so far from C in either direction along the spiral before intervals started to sound really weird/awful and the system basically broke down.

The big innovation was well-temperament, where you could play something in any key and every interval sounded good.

You are confusing the medieval system with the older greek one. The medieval system is based on tetrachords and pentachords (diapente) which is obtained by arithmetic and harmonic division of the octave, thus leading to authentic and plagal mode/scales. The hexachords were used for solmization. The medieval music is using the 8 church modes which even if they have the same diatonic notes do not equal to the major mode (Ionian). One of them is the mode of F, which often was used in conjunction with the flat B thus getting close to the ionian mode.

Accidentals were perfectly known to medieval theorists. There is already a mention of it in the Musica Enchiriadis, late 9th century (in Dasiean notation). There are several reasons to use sharpened or flattened notes (in the context of medieval system). Melodically it is to correct certain forbidden intervals like typically the tritone. And polyphonically which is roughly toward the end of the 13th century, there are a couple of reasons to use them. One is Causa Necessisitatis to correct harmonic intervals. The other reason is due to Causa pulchiritudinis to comply with aesthetic reasons. Using semi-tones when going from imperfect to perfect intervals or in cadences. Those can be seen in the early development of polyphonic music, for example in Guillaume de Machaut works. The interval of the wolf has nothing to do with the usage of accidentals. You are confusing temperament tuning and scale structure. So you dont call the starting pitch C. In the medieval chant, the starting pitch is physically movable (unlike our fixed system of notes) depending on the voices of people, but nevertheless the notes used are perfectly identified because the nature of the melody depends on the mode, which is not necessarily ionian.

There is no relationhip between the keyboard and the diatonic scale. The diatonic scale is the result of theoretical considerations developed by the Greek theorists which predate by far any keyboard. Though the organ in its basic form existed already in old Greece, it was a simple model which did not have a keyboard per se. The keyboard as we know it is the result of current practice of the time, not the other way around.

The split keyboards did not have a lot of success. It was complicated to manufacture and the mechanism was too sophisticated. Most keyboard instruments starting with the Renaissance and Baroque had normal keyboards which were tuned with various temperaments. The difference between a G sharp and G flat still exists. The fact that we choose to assimilate both for practical reasons does not mean they are the same.

Joined: Feb 2019
Posts: 1,731
S
1000 Post Club Member
Offline
1000 Post Club Member
S
Joined: Feb 2019
Posts: 1,731
Originally Posted by Sidokar
The difference between a G sharp and G flat still exists. The fact that we choose to assimilate both for practical reasons does not mean they are the same.

I should say F sharp and G flat ! that is more relevant.

Joined: Jan 2016
Posts: 2,801
2000 Post Club Member
Offline
2000 Post Club Member
Joined: Jan 2016
Posts: 2,801
Interesting background. . .

Joined: Feb 2021
Posts: 12
J
Junior Member
Offline
Junior Member
J
Joined: Feb 2021
Posts: 12
Quote
You are confusing the medieval system with the older greek one.

Thanks, your reply helps clear up a few things. I was definitely reaching further past my knowledge than I should've there trying to figure out where the sharps and flats came from.

Quote
The difference between a F sharp and G flat still exists. The fact that we choose to assimilate both for practical reasons does not mean they are the same.

On a (non-split) keyboard, the difference exists only in a theoretical sense within a tonal framework. If you write something that is not tonal, there's no difference, and even in a tonal work the difference is only about the role the note plays in relation to other notes; the note itself is the same (I guess at that point it comes down to how you define note). If you take a Beethoven piano sonata and change all the F sharps to G flats, it will be confusing to look at and the harmonic structure will make a lot less sense, but there's no difference to the listener (unless the confusion of the pianist comes through in the performance somehow). And it is these "practical" reasons why it becomes a circle of fifths rather than a line of fifths, or a spiral that never meets. The keyboard forces this practicality. Other fixed-pitch instruments too (like fretted ones), but I doubt they had anywhere near the effect on composition that keyboards have had.

But going back to the original question, my sense is that the easy answers will tend to be tautological — you add sharps because that's the way the framework was designed. Sort of like 1 + 1 = 2 because that's how we define 1, +, =, and 2. But if you detach an equal-tempered 12-tone scale from history it could have been a totally different framework, and ones without sharps or flats — the reason you drop flats and then accumulate sharps as you move up fifths is all buried into the history (in ways I don't fully understand) of how we moved from systems of simple fractions that don't needs sharps and flat into scales that do, which eventually got to a place where the sharps and flats converged, the intervals all became irrational, but the scale became much simpler and the music could become more complex. I would love to understand the middle parts of this story better, so maybe I'll find something to pile onto my reading list.

Joined: Feb 2019
Posts: 1,731
S
1000 Post Club Member
Offline
1000 Post Club Member
S
Joined: Feb 2019
Posts: 1,731
Originally Posted by Jun-Dai
On a (non-split) keyboard, the difference exists only in a theoretical sense within a tonal framework.

Yes of course. There is a theoretical difference and also a physical one of one comma.

[/quote]
But going back to the original question, my sense is that the easy answers will tend to be tautological — you add sharps because that's the way the framework was designed. Sort of like 1 + 1 = 2 because that's how we define 1, +, =, and 2. But if you detach an equal-tempered 12-tone scale from history it could have been a totally different framework, and ones without sharps or flats — [/quote]

Yes, the model of the 12 chromatic tones and the way they are built is by definition why we keep adding sharps or flats.

Joined: Oct 2018
Posts: 872
P
500 Post Club Member
Offline
500 Post Club Member
P
Joined: Oct 2018
Posts: 872
It's sadly one of the limitations of the piano as we know it that as far as I am aware we can't, unlike on say the violin (which I played for a few years as a child many moons ago) make the sharps a little sharper or the flats a little flatter which at times made a lot of 'musical sense' even to a child.


regards
Pete
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 23,280
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Online Content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 23,280
Originally Posted by petebfrance
It's sadly one of the limitations of the piano as we know it that as far as I am aware we can't...

The modesty with which you state that is admirable. grin

Quote
....unlike on say the violin (which I played for a few years as a child many moons ago) make the sharps a little sharper or the flats a little flatter which at times made a lot of 'musical sense' even to a child.

Yes, and sometimes we might try to create the illusion, don't we!

BTW, come to think of it, I think I try to do that particularly in Brahms. There's something about him that makes me want to tug at it....

Joined: Oct 2018
Posts: 872
P
500 Post Club Member
Offline
500 Post Club Member
P
Joined: Oct 2018
Posts: 872
Originally Posted by Mark_C
Originally Posted by petebfrance
It's sadly one of the limitations of the piano as we know it that as far as I am aware we can't...

The modesty with which you state that is admirable. grin

Quote
....unlike on say the violin (which I played for a few years as a child many moons ago) make the sharps a little sharper or the flats a little flatter which at times made a lot of 'musical sense' even to a child.

Yes, and sometimes we might try to create the illusion, don't we!

BTW, come to think of it, I think I try to do that particularly in Brahms. There's something about him that makes me want to tug at it....

Modesty? No, caution! The number of times somebody has made an RDS (Random Definitive Statement) on this board only to be shot down in flames makes me very wary.

Trying to create the illusion - well, tbh, quite often when I'm playing I suspect that I hear more what I imagine I'm playing than the noise I am actually making, so the illusion is sometimes there, but not for any unfortunate listener wink

Last edited by petebfrance; 02/25/21 07:26 AM.

regards
Pete
Joined: Feb 2020
Posts: 430
Ubu Offline
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
Joined: Feb 2020
Posts: 430
I think the only way to provide an answer that satisfies everyone would be through an abstract model that takes music out of the picture.

For example imagen a salesman from the old days that sales his products in 12 cities. The distance between each city and the next one is 50kms. And they go in a circle so the last one is 50kms from the first one.

But the salesman doesn't go in a straight route selling his products. For business reasons he has several routes. One route starts in the first citi.Then he travels 100kms to the 3rd. Then 100kms more to the 5th. Then 50kms more to the 6th. And so on. You see what i mean.

Another route follows the same pattern but starts in city 8th. In this route he visits the same cities as in previous route, but one. Instead of city 6, he goes to city 7.

You draw it, you count, you will see it is a very simple thing.

Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 14,456
B
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
B
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 14,456
Originally Posted by petebfrance
It's sadly one of the limitations of the piano as we know it that as far as I am aware we can't, unlike on say the violin (which I played for a few years as a child many moons ago) make the sharps a little sharper or the flats a little flatter which at times made a lot of 'musical sense' even to a child.
Well, if you have a digital piano, you can: just change the temperament from the usual "Equal" to "Kirnberger" and set it to the key of the piece you're playing, which gives you pure thirds........and revel in sounds that you can't normally get on fixed-pitched instruments.

There are other temperaments that give you pure thirds and some also pure fifths, so try the others too. Of course, there are trade-offs: some intervals will sound out of tune, even nasty.......so it only works on some Baroque and Classical pieces.


"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."
Page 3 of 4 1 2 3 4

Moderated by  Brendan, Kreisler 

Link Copied to Clipboard
(ad)
Faust Harrison Pianos
Faust Harrison 100+ Steinway pianos
(ad)
Couch to Concert Hall
Couch to Concert Hall
(ad)
PianoDisc

PianoDisc
(ad)
Piano Life Saver - Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
(ad)
Mason & Hamlin Pianos
New Topics - Multiple Forums
Should I buy this Hazelton Bros Piano?
by siniarch - 04/14/21 01:29 AM
Not sure which piano to buy need some help.
by Artdealer718 - 04/14/21 01:21 AM
Appraising a piano?
by jsilva - 04/13/21 09:18 PM
Bleeding edge synth tech c.1980 for Rush
by newer player - 04/13/21 08:36 PM
Download Sheet Music
Virtual Sheet Music - Classical Sheet Music Downloads
Forum Statistics
Forums42
Topics206,270
Posts3,082,137
Members101,182
Most Online15,252
Mar 21st, 2010
Please Support Our Advertisers

Faust Harrison 100+ Steinways

Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver

 Best of Piano Buyer

PianoTeq Bechstein
Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers

Virtual Sheet Music - Classical Sheet Music Downloads



 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
| Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter |


© copyright 1997 - 2021 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5