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Originally Posted by Sonepica
Originally Posted by redfish1901
Sonepica,

Since you seem to love pianos with big sound (me too!), why bother with smaller pianos? It sounds to me that space is not a concern and the budget is quite high. After you buy a smaller piano, you might wish for a bigger one anyway.

I'd suggest sticking with concert grands. There is no substitute.

Finally, someone on this forum talking some sense! smile

I think it's a good idea to focus on used concert grands. I've heard people say that because the market for concert grands is small, you can get them at very good prices. I like the thought of being able to trade out the piano for a different one with no new depreciation loss if I decide I'd rather have a different brand.
I get that you want a nice big bass in your piano - most people do. But it comes at a cost. I fear you are one of those people who needs to learn things the hard way. All the concert grands you have tried were positioned in very large rooms with high ceilings. The same instrument will not sound like that in a home setting. You need a very large space to absorb and buffer the sound energy you get from a concert grand. In a small room it can very easily overwhelm the space leading to ear fatigue and an inability to extract the most out of the piano because you have to force it down into the lower end of its dynamic range. Not only that, but your suggestion of taking it to a small apartment in Hong Kong etc makes it all the more absurd a prospect. There are so many reasons why that's a bad idea. The neighbours won't let you play it, you'd be lucky if you can get it up the elevator/stairs or even in your front door. The sound levels would be off the scale.

I think you're fishing for people to confirm your idea that a concert grand makes sense for the plans you have. It's confirmation bias. You are actively rejecting the advice of very experienced and knowledgeable people on here. That's your prerogative, but do so at your own peril. I would suggest at the very least, that you in find a concert grand that has been tucked into a small room and experience it for yourself. Only then will you understand the advice you're being given. You should rely on real experience rather than how it sounds in your imagination.

Sorry if I sound harsh, but for your own good, I think you need a reality check. Best of luck on your quest.

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Originally Posted by Sonepica
Originally Posted by redfish1901
Sonepica,

Since you seem to love pianos with big sound (me too!), why bother with smaller pianos? It sounds to me that space is not a concern and the budget is quite high. After you buy a smaller piano, you might wish for a bigger one anyway.

I'd suggest sticking with concert grands. There is no substitute.

Finally, someone on this forum talking some sense! smile

I think it's a good idea to focus on used concert grands. I've heard people say that because the market for concert grands is small, you can get them at very good prices. I like the thought of being able to trade out the piano for a different one with no new depreciation loss if I decide I'd rather have a different brand.
.

and where will you put the concert grand if you move to s smaller place in Hong Kong?


"Music, rich, full of feeling, not soulless, is like a crystal on which the sun falls and brings forth from it a whole rainbow" - F. Chopin
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Originally Posted by ando
You need a very large space to absorb and buffer the sound energy you get from a concert grand. In a small room it can very easily overwhelm the space leading to ear fatigue and an inability to extract the most out of the piano because you have to force it down into the lower end of its dynamic range. Not only that, but your suggestion of taking it to a small apartment in Hong Kong etc makes it all the more absurd a prospect. There are so many reasons why that's a bad idea. The neighbours won't let you play it, you'd be lucky if you can get it up the elevator/stairs or even in your front door. The sound levels would be off the scale.

I think you're fishing for people to confirm your idea that a concert grand makes sense for the plans you have. It's confirmation bias. You are actively rejecting the advice of very experienced and knowledgeable people on here. That's your prerogative, but do so at your own peril. I would suggest at the very least, that you in find a concert grand that has been tucked into a small room and experience it for yourself. Only then will you understand the advice you're being given. You should rely on real experience rather than how it sounds in your imagination.

Sorry if I sound harsh, but for your own good, I think you need a reality check. Best of luck on your quest.

This is all just your opinion. Here is a recently posted video of a lovely Steinway D tucked in a small backyard studio. In fact, you can see two grand pianos in the room, and all the walls (0:34 mark), so it's very easy to estimate the actual size of this studio.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yq2H6yvBi0Q

Did the OP ever suggest the room size? How do you know the OP can afford only the tiniest apartment in HK?

Last edited by redfish1901; 02/21/21 11:30 AM.
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Originally Posted by redfish1901
Originally Posted by ando
You need a very large space to absorb and buffer the sound energy you get from a concert grand. In a small room it can very easily overwhelm the space leading to ear fatigue and an inability to extract the most out of the piano because you have to force it down into the lower end of its dynamic range. Not only that, but your suggestion of taking it to a small apartment in Hong Kong etc makes it all the more absurd a prospect. There are so many reasons why that's a bad idea. The neighbours won't let you play it, you'd be lucky if you can get it up the elevator/stairs or even in your front door. The sound levels would be off the scale.

I think you're fishing for people to confirm your idea that a concert grand makes sense for the plans you have. It's confirmation bias. You are actively rejecting the advice of very experienced and knowledgeable people on here. That's your prerogative, but do so at your own peril. I would suggest at the very least, that you in find a concert grand that has been tucked into a small room and experience it for yourself. Only then will you understand the advice you're being given. You should rely on real experience rather than how it sounds in your imagination.

Sorry if I sound harsh, but for your own good, I think you need a reality check. Best of luck on your quest.

This is all just your opinion. Here is a recently posted video of a lovely Steinway D tucked in a small backyard studio. In fact, you can see two grand pianos in the room, and all the walls (0:34 mark), so it's very easy to estimate the actual size of this studio.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yq2H6yvBi0Q

Did the OP ever suggest the room size? How do you know the OP can afford only the tiniest apartment in HK?

Yes, the OP did suggest he was concerned about having such a large piano if sn employment opportunity came up in Hong Kong


"Music, rich, full of feeling, not soulless, is like a crystal on which the sun falls and brings forth from it a whole rainbow" - F. Chopin
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In the recent month, I've played 12 concert grands in different showrooms, which includes 6 Steinway Ds, one Baldwin SD-10, two Yamaha CFX, Bosendorfer 280VC and two Steingraeber E-272. I've played about 30 pianos in the 7-foot range also, including Fazioli F228, Yamaha S7X, Steinway B and Schimmel K219. These pianos range from new to used.

My experience is that concert grands don't necessarily have a better or louder bass than a piano at 7' or 7 and half (which translates to 210-230cm). Theoretically it should but it also depends on a lot of factors (scale design, material of the soundboard, bass string condition, hammer condition, craftsmanship, preparation). It also depends on the sound profile of the brand, and more importantly, the individual piano.

Fun facts:

1. The two pianos you mentioned here: Neither Yamaha S7X nor Fazioli F228 has the bass that I like. Now I must clarify that I've only tried one sample out of these two pianos so a lot of my opinion comes from those two individual pianos. The bass of Yamaha S7X doesn't feel pure to me. It has the tendency to distort the sound when playing loud and the piano starts having some weird resonance when playing ff on the bass range. The bass of that particular Fazioli F-228 that I played was just weak, which sounds like a 6-foot piano.

2. My favorite bass among all these pianos is a recently rebuilt Steinway B manufactured in 1878. The technician put lacquer on new NY Steinway hammers and it really gives it the iconic Steinway sound. Since I'm in the US, I have more exposure to American pianos. From my experience, Steinway, Mason & Hamlin and Baldwin all have very powerful bass. I've compared a Steinway D, a Baldwin SD-10 and a Steingraeber E-272 side by side. The two American pianos have enormous power while the Steingraeber sounds very delicate.

3. The bass of 6 Steinway Ds and 13 Steinway Bs I've tried varied a lot. But I'm talking about used pianos here. Even if we are talking about brand new pianos, it also depends a lot on how the hammer is voiced.

4. There is also a difference between the sound the pianist is hearing, and the sound that others are hearing. The difference is bigger in Yamaha pianos since they use laminated woods for the rim. The music desk of Yamaha pianos also make a big difference. When the music desk stands up I only hear a quiet sound from the two Yamaha CFX, but it makes a huge difference when the music desk is laid down.

5. Bosendorfer currently offers two different concert grands, which are the 290 Imperial, and 280VC. Theses two pianos are very different. The 290 Imperial is their traditional version which has an iconic Vienna sound. It sounds more delicate and good for chamber music, or a smaller hall. The 280VC is a more modern design (a more "Steinway" design I should say) that aims to fill the whole auditorium. I've played one 280VC that sounds even brighter than some Steinways.

6. The Schimmel K219 has a different kind of bass compared to Steinway B. It sounds purer but in the meantime also cleaner. I don't have the technical knowledge to explain the difference but different manufacturers have huge difference on their sound aesthetics.

7. I've played a rebuilt Mason & Hamlin AA that has a wonderful bass. That piano is 6'4 and I don't feel the bass was lacking in any way. I've also played a few Steinway A3 that have good bass. My personal preference for grand piano size is larger than 6'4 (193cm). I can tell a big difference between 6'1 and 6'4, but not so much between 6'4 and 7'. When a piano is larger than 7' (214cm), the biggest difference that I can feel is the dynamic range instead of bass clarity.

8. I've also played a handful of Steinway Model M, which is 5'7 (170cm). Most of them had an unfulfilling bass except one that was rebuilt by a great local technician. The technician used Stanwood method to calibrate hammer and key weight and it is the best sounding Steinway M that I've ever played. It has a bass that is comparable to a Steinway A3 in the same room. A great technician can really make a piano sounds like a different one. You never knows!


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Regarding the question if a concert grand will overpower a small room, I think it largely depends on the room acoustic. Does the room have bare wall only, or have some furnitures or sound absorbing materials? I've played a Steinway D in a 20*20 room with bare walls and it doesn't sound good. The sound lost clarify after wall reflection. However, I do think it can sound good by room acoustic treatment and voicing the piano hammer.


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My D is in a 20' X 20' room. Height of the ceiling is 15' in the middle. The bookcase behind the piano, off to the side, the couch and rug, all act has absorbers or diffusers in a sense.

I like the sound in there- lid down, half stick or full stick. Could it be be better with more treatment ? Probably.

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It seems there is significant disagreement about whether a 9' piano is suitable for home use.

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I'm not saying that 9' piano is not suitable for home use. If a 9' piano is not sounding good in a room, chances are that a 7' piano won't either.



Look at this video. This is a performance by a well-known piano teacher Josh Wright and his wife. They have a Steinway D and a Steinway O both in a tiny room. I guess they voiced down the hammer of the concert grand. From the mic it sounds good.


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Originally Posted by redfish1901
This is all just your opinion.
Well, sure. Isn't that what we're all here to do? Should I withhold my opinion because you already gave yours? You're advocating pretty strongly on one side, but there is a contrary opinion. In the end it probably depends on how sensitive your ears are to loud volumes. It also depends on whether you play soft music or you really want to pound the keys.

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I wonder what stopped OP from thinking about even bigger pianos like Fazioli F308 or Stuart and Sons concert grand.


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Originally Posted by Sonepica
It seems there is significant disagreement about whether a 9' piano is suitable for home use.

As someone with a 9’ piano in Their home - I Love It!

There hasn’t been a day, where I wished I’d gotten a smaller piano

When ppl ask,... What size Grand They should get - I recommend - They get the Biggest They can afford,... & reasonably fit in Their homes

Now, if You’re planning on moving & living in an apartment/condo complex, perhaps a CG isn’t the most practical choice

But assuming You have reasonable space in Your home - Go as Big as You can

You won’t regret It!


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Originally Posted by Davdoc
I wonder what stopped OP from thinking about even bigger pianos like Fazioli F308 or Stuart and Sons concert grand.

What makes you think I haven't thought about the 308? Do you think the 308 would be big enough for my needs, or should I be looking at some kind of 4m custom build?

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Originally Posted by ando
Originally Posted by Sonepica
Originally Posted by redfish1901
Sonepica,

Since you seem to love pianos with big sound (me too!), why bother with smaller pianos? It sounds to me that space is not a concern and the budget is quite high. After you buy a smaller piano, you might wish for a bigger one anyway.

I'd suggest sticking with concert grands. There is no substitute.

Finally, someone on this forum talking some sense! smile

I think it's a good idea to focus on used concert grands. I've heard people say that because the market for concert grands is small, you can get them at very good prices. I like the thought of being able to trade out the piano for a different one with no new depreciation loss if I decide I'd rather have a different brand.
I get that you want a nice big bass in your piano - most people do. But it comes at a cost. I fear you are one of those people who needs to learn things the hard way. All the concert grands you have tried were positioned in very large rooms with high ceilings. The same instrument will not sound like that in a home setting. You need a very large space to absorb and buffer the sound energy you get from a concert grand. In a small room it can very easily overwhelm the space leading to ear fatigue and an inability to extract the most out of the piano because you have to force it down into the lower end of its dynamic range. Not only that, but your suggestion of taking it to a small apartment in Hong Kong etc makes it all the more absurd a prospect. There are so many reasons why that's a bad idea. The neighbours won't let you play it, you'd be lucky if you can get it up the elevator/stairs or even in your front door. The sound levels would be off the scale.

I think you're fishing for people to confirm your idea that a concert grand makes sense for the plans you have. It's confirmation bias. You are actively rejecting the advice of very experienced and knowledgeable people on here. That's your prerogative, but do so at your own peril. I would suggest at the very least, that you in find a concert grand that has been tucked into a small room and experience it for yourself. Only then will you understand the advice you're being given. You should rely on real experience rather than how it sounds in your imagination.

Sorry if I sound harsh, but for your own good, I think you need a reality check. Best of luck on your quest.

+1

Me too, I live in an apartment, and the room for my Steinway C227 is about 60m2, with 3,5m ceiling. The piano sounds pretty good, with a nice natural reverb of the room. But I think it reaches the limite of a reasonable piano/room size. A full concert grand will be too loud for my piano room. OK we could play with the lid closed, but sometime what we need is not just the volume, but the clear and powerful sound from a lid-opened piano.


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For me it all depends on the individual piano. I won’t buy a piano sight unseen and I’ll try every piano which I am thinking to buy. So that eliminates a lot of 9 foot pianos since there aren’t many units on display.

If I’m going crazy to get a concert grand, I’ll need to think if the benefit I’m getting is worth the extra price, space, moving hassle and resale value. I won’t have the answer before trying the particular unit.


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Originally Posted by Rich Galassini
Originally Posted by Sonepica
But a concert grand would have a clearer bass and less inharmonicity, right?

Well, yes. However, I have had clients who have chosen the Bösendorfer 225 over a number of other concert grands. You see, the 225 has 4 extra notes in the bass and these notes do several things:

1) They create "under tones". These are much like overtones, but these extra bass notes do sympathetically vibrate with their own partials. Play a big chord on a 225 with the sustain pedal down and this is evident.
2) They create a wider piano, and therefore a bigger soundboard and an elongated scale because of how cross stringing can work on this model.
3) They bring the termination point on the bass bridge in the standard tessitura of the piano closer to the "sweet spot" of the transferal of vibration into the soundboard, so it is used more efficiently.

I love the balance it offers, the ability to "rattle windows", but also the ability to whisper on this piano. This leads me to questions for you.

1) What will you be using the piano for?
2) How large is the space you will place the piano in?
3) What do you play?

I just love this reply, Rich!

Me too, in my utopia, the most perfect piano of all would be a Bösy 225!

Last edited by trandinhnamanh; 02/21/21 09:09 PM.

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Originally Posted by ando
Originally Posted by redfish1901
This is all just your opinion.
Well, sure. Isn't that what we're all here to do? Should I withhold my opinion because you already gave yours? You're advocating pretty strongly on one side, but there is a contrary opinion. In the end it probably depends on how sensitive your ears are to loud volumes. It also depends on whether you play soft music or you really want to pound the keys.

There is "having an opinion", and there is you. You speak to the OP as if they were a child, and you are the only adult in the room. The OP is perfectly capable of deciding for themselves what they want.

Originally Posted by ando
I fear you are one of those people who needs to learn things the hard way.

Originally Posted by ando
your suggestion ... makes it all the more absurd a prospect.

Originally Posted by ando
You are actively rejecting the advice of very experienced and knowledgeable people on here. That's your prerogative, but do so at your own peril.

Originally Posted by ando
You should rely on real experience rather than how it sounds in your imagination.

Originally Posted by ando
for your own good, I think you need a reality check.

Last edited by redfish1901; 02/21/21 10:22 PM.
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Originally Posted by Sonepica
Originally Posted by Davdoc
I wonder what stopped OP from thinking about even bigger pianos like Fazioli F308 or Stuart and Sons concert grand.

What makes you think I haven't thought about the 308? Do you think the 308 would be big enough for my needs, or should I be looking at some kind of 4m custom build?

Did you ever write/say you were considering F308 or Stuart & Sons?

I was wondering because you are certainly looking for pianos with long bass strings, and I would think those longer pianos would fit the bill.

Disclaimer: I never had a chance to try an F308 or a Stuart & Sons piano.


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Originally Posted by redfish1901
Originally Posted by ando
Originally Posted by redfish1901
This is all just your opinion.
Well, sure. Isn't that what we're all here to do? Should I withhold my opinion because you already gave yours? You're advocating pretty strongly on one side, but there is a contrary opinion. In the end it probably depends on how sensitive your ears are to loud volumes. It also depends on whether you play soft music or you really want to pound the keys.

There is "having an opinion", and there is you. You speak to the OP as if they were a child, and you are the only adult in the room. The OP is perfectly capable of deciding for themselves what they want.

Originally Posted by ando
I fear you are one of those people who needs to learn things the hard way.

Originally Posted by ando
your suggestion ... makes it all the more absurd a prospect.

Originally Posted by ando
You are actively rejecting the advice of very experienced and knowledgeable people on here. That's your prerogative, but do so at your own peril.

Originally Posted by ando
You should rely on real experience rather than how it sounds in your imagination.

Originally Posted by ando
for your own good, I think you need a reality check.
If you were familiar with the OPs posting history you'd know that this tone is quite normal for him, and I think preferable for him (or her). He tends to appreciate brutal honesty - I very much doubt he is offended by what I wrote. He can consider it or disregard it. I don't mind if people don't agree with me. It's not my usual style of writing, granted - but I made an exception in this case. I'm sorry if it bothered you, sincerely.

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Originally Posted by ando
Originally Posted by redfish1901
Originally Posted by ando
Originally Posted by redfish1901
This is all just your opinion.
Well, sure. Isn't that what we're all here to do? Should I withhold my opinion because you already gave yours? You're advocating pretty strongly on one side, but there is a contrary opinion. In the end it probably depends on how sensitive your ears are to loud volumes. It also depends on whether you play soft music or you really want to pound the keys.

There is "having an opinion", and there is you. You speak to the OP as if they were a child, and you are the only adult in the room. The OP is perfectly capable of deciding for themselves what they want.

Originally Posted by ando
I fear you are one of those people who needs to learn things the hard way.

Originally Posted by ando
your suggestion ... makes it all the more absurd a prospect.

Originally Posted by ando
You are actively rejecting the advice of very experienced and knowledgeable people on here. That's your prerogative, but do so at your own peril.

Originally Posted by ando
You should rely on real experience rather than how it sounds in your imagination.

Originally Posted by ando
for your own good, I think you need a reality check.
If you were familiar with the OPs posting history you'd know that this tone is quite normal for him, and I think preferable for him (or her). He tends to appreciate brutal honesty - I very much doubt he is offended by what I wrote. He can consider it or disregard it. I don't mind if people don't agree with me. It's not my usual style of writing, granted - but I made an exception in this case. I'm sorry if it bothered you, sincerely.

I'm so sorry, he's from Hobart. We don't normally let Tasmanians participate in public discourse for this very reason.

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