Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Piano Tuner-Technicians Forum Is 62gr down/40gr up weights too heavy for a grand action?

Why should the buyer have to engage a specialist tech to diagnose a problem with an (expensive) new piano?

I would suggest the OP have a couple of other pianists come play the piano for an hour or so and then tell you what they think of the feel.

Good suggestion. Though it might not be possible in these Covid-19 days.

In any case, I would trade the GX-2 with a piano that has a light action, as I said previously. OP might get injured in the long term with this heavy action GX-2.

As best I know, you have not yet spoken with the dealer. Don't tell him yet that you have spoken with Kawai tech support. Part of the dealer relationship with the manufacturer is that they are required to act as the intermediary between the factory and the customer. Where possible, they will resolve technical support issues through the dealer technician, who will speak to tech support and get approval to implement the required remedies. The dealer is compensated by the manufacturer for the repairs. So give them the opportunity to act with good intentions by calling them.

As a potential warranty issue, this is not connected to any other services the dealer may provide after the sale. His obligation to the manufacturer to act as their agent exists so long as he is a seller of their make of pianos.

There may be other issues contributing to the heavy feeling that is attributed to the 62 gram downweight. It may be due to high inertia in the system, such as heavy hammers and a lot of lead in the keys. Or there may be issues in the action setup. Or Not. A technician with a good understanding of how the components of an action work together can get the proper overview.

The Millennium III action has been one of Kawais's major marketing strategies.

I would be very surprised if a new Kawai GX-2 action turns out to be a defective one that would require some sort of repair by the dealer.

BTW, Pooya is this the GX-2 you tried at the dealer, or did you buy it unseen?

Hi Pooya. I'm sorry your enthusiasm for your beautiful new piano may be somewhat dampened by your touchweight issues. I'm biased because I'm such a fan of Kawai pianos, but if the tone is to your liking (I swear, there is something about that Kawai sound that is unique), then action issues can always be addressed. Certainly it's easier to alter an action than it is to alter a soundboard or rim, so if all that is to your liking, then hang onto that sweet GX2.

It seems you may have tried many of the things I did to lighten the action on my GL10. However, you mentioned that the hammer blow is set at the factory 46mm spec. You might try reducing that to 44mm. That was probably the single thing that lightened my action the most. Another easy alteration is to cut about 1/3 off the front of your balance rail punching. Or, you can buy pre-cut punchings instead, if you don't want to alter your original ones. This essentially moves the pivot point on the keystick back a couple mm, giving you more leverage at the front of the key. These two alterations may get you where you want to go. If you have trouble getting cut punchings, PM me and I can order a set for you.

The final poor man's alteration to lighten touchweight is the Pitchlock Touchrail. As you know, this device is for making fine alterations to the touch. Given your M3 action is already very dialed in, it's the ideal candidate for the Touchrail.

Good luck. With a few action alterations, it will be possible to be fully in love with your piano once again!

BTW, after reading about Pooya's 40g upweight, I wonder if I can get there by removing my front key leads. Currently my upweight is 24g, but given I have the Touchrail installed to reduce the downweight, I may not need all my key leads. I think removing a lead from each key will only make the action quicker by reducing inertia and increasing key return speed.

Anybody see a downside to removing all the front key leads? Haven't ever removed leads before: are they easily re-inserted if I want to go back?

Thanks.

Touchrail is not equivalent of key leads, touchrail works only for initial portion of key travel. Removing key leads won't change much if anything, the are not main source of inertia, if you have inertia problems, install lighter hammers, there is no other way.

Pooya - that kind of weight IS in the normal range for some pianos, particularly concert pianos I've played. I think the odds of Kawai shipping it out with wrong hammers are close to zero; they are known for consistency in their builds. You ask about your technique, and I say, with respect, kindness and gently, "yes, your technique, if you want to play pianos like the one you have, needs to grow". I remember coming from a completely worn out upright with feather light action to my first teacher's piano, a small Baldwin grand, and struggling with the higher weight and the feeling of the bushed keys. Coming from an electronic keyboard, if that is all that you have been using for practice, it will take some effort to deal with the beefier feel of most acoustic actions.

Yes, there has been a trend towards lower downweight in the past few years. I believe that even Steinway is heading into the low 50G weight (I know I'll be corrected if I've got that wrong, but it's my experience playing the newer ones vs. the older ones).

So... my bet is that your piano is well within spec though you are within your consumer rights to challenge the dealer to verify that for you, and I believe that you would be feeling the same problems with a lighter feeling acoustic action, just not as quickly.

If you like the sound of your piano, I counsel you to verify that it is within spec, and after that, to be patient with yourself as you condition your hands to the demands of playing an acoustic instrument.

My two cents. Good luck on your piano journey.

Thanks ambrozy. Even if removing key lead doesn't change inertia much, it would increase the upweight by a few grams, right? So I'm thinking if I remove a 10g key lead near the front of the key, and the upweight goes up from 24 to say 30 and nothing else changes, that would be an improvement in speed of key return, and that's a small improvement in that spec of the action. Does that sound correct?

I agree that when activating a key it is the hammer inertia that is most significant to the action feel. But the effect front key leads have on key return speed is noticeable upon return of the key to rest.

Yes, lighter key will return faster (accelerate faster) if hammer was in check and repetition spring pushes rest of action to reset, but is there really a problem with return? you have too many leads in keys? and if so, it still indicates that you have too heavy hammers really.

Thanks Ed. BTW, saw you at Isaac's PTG technical yesterday. He sure has a lot of bags of tricks. You also have an awesome beard!

Folks, I am truly heartened by your active participation and helpful advice. This is a fantastic community!

Update: Following WilliamTruitt and MarkL's advice, I contacted my dealer today. After explaining the issue and nicely asking for their help, they first suggested that I talk to Kawai, but I explained that I already have and that they had referred me back to them. They then kindly agreed to send a more experienced technician (in place of their regular tuner) to take a look at the piano action and also tune it for the first time (haven't been able to get a hold of the technician yet though, but hopefully will). They mentioned that depending on the technician's assessment they might make a service call with Kawai.

I agree with this. I think asking for an evaluation is not asking much. So far my dealer has been very forthcoming.

I wish that was possible, but with Covid and my just restarting to play after a decade long hiatus, I also don't have any pianist friends nearby!

Hakki, I got the piano sight unseen as they did not carry it in the store.

That's also my guess, especially given what a precise piece of engineering the piano is: as I had mentioned in another thread, I have yet to find any measurement that is out of spec with Kawai's manual (but note that I am not a specialist).

The feel of the action is truly wonderful and very sensitive, in low tempos. The dynamic depth is impressive in that I can play way softer than ppp. In higher tempos tough, you start to feel the weight and that the keys are much more difficult to budge.

Emery, good to hear from you again! I have already made a very strong bond with my piano. There is no turning back now! The other day I was comparing its sound to a new Steinway model B from a Youtube video, and I couldn't tell the difference within the acoustics limits of a TV, of course. It has the warmest sound of all Kawai's I had tried in the store. I really love it. I'm sure it (and Kawai) will also come around and respond in kind!

Seeker, all your points make a lot of sense to me. As you said all I want to confirm is that the action is within a normal range for a modern piano and I am not wasting my time and energy pursuing an impossible task.

Emery -

You really don't want upweights any lower than 20g, or the keys will begin to feel sluggish. Removing leads will raise both the upweights and downweights, and so is not ideal unless the DW is already too low. Temporarily remove the touchrail and remeasure before making any decision or changes, then reset the TR if necessary. Friction should be carefully addressed before doing any of this.

In the case of the OP, the touchweights are already uncomfortably high, and adding more lead might not be a good option. I've done a number of Kawai (and Boston) grands and although I agree they are excellent instruments the action balancing was less than ideal, as is normal for virtually any manufacturer. High production methods simply don't allow the additional time necessary to balance actions for maximum performance.

I think that Steinway's in house touchweight spec has been around 50g ( or lower, in the treble) for many years - they don't always get there, but that is another story...

I don't find that actions typically benefit from heavier touchweights. A light action in a well-voiced well-reulated quality piano should perform as well or better with less chance of injury and much less fatigue.

60 g down
62g dn/40g up is not indicative of high friction. Removing weights from the keys will raise both down and up weights, and adding leads to the keys will lower the static weights, but at the expense of adding a bit more inertia to the action. The OP notes problems playing fast passages, which directly implicates high hammer weight and/or high action ratio, which create high inertia.. I once had an M with 60/40 static weight measurements that was a delight to play, because the hammers were light. No doubt friction could be made a bit lower, but I'd put my money on high inertia as the real problem.

Has anyone thought about looking at the jack position? Perhaps a little compromise toward the hammer would improve the leverage ratio slightly. Possibly at the expense of repetition of course, but in connection with reducing hammer travel it may make a difference. Just an idea.

Peter Grey Piano Doctor

Pooya, you are on the right track in working with the dealer, and looking to the best face-to-face help you can find, especially if it is someone well versed in matters of touchweight and overall action response.

Emery, I would urge you not to look for tips and tricks to work with action response, but to develop a thorough knowledge of the inter-relatedness of the various dimensions of action behavior. The resources are available to you as a member of the PTG. Journals for the past 42 years are downloadable from the member area of the PTG website, and a preliminary index for them can be found at this location.

Using the index you can search by author and more. Begin to acquaint yourself with what David Stanwood has written there. He has made a monumental contribution to the understanding of this whole area. Nick Gravagne recently contributed an extensive series on inertia, touchweight and action response. It's a lot to chew, but very much worth the effort. Fandrich and Rhodes are among others who have made very helpful contributions.

Key front weight interacts with hammer weight, friction, and action ratio. Other factors such as damper timing play a role as well. Static weight and inertia are both critical considerations. Minimum and maximum ranges for key front weight are also specified by Stanwood, Gravagne, and probably others, and are useful specs to take into consideration.

I hear people saying that the upweights and downweights measured by the OP are in the normal range. This is not consistent with what I have read in the literature. Averaging the upweight and downweight for any given note gives you a number referred to in the literature as balance weight. The OP's measurements yield a balance weight of 51g in the bass and of 47g in the midrange. David Stanwood states that the normal range for balance weight runs from 30 to 45 grams. The low zone would be 30-35 grams, the medium zone 35-40 grams, and the high zone 40-45 grams.

The measured balance weights, if they are truly representative of the rest of the piano, are somewhat beyond the heavy end of the ranges specified by Stanwood. Obviously some of the posters on this list have worked with high balance weights, and found them amenable. The OP poster, however, sounds like he is describing the onset of tendonitis, and I don't think, in this case, that it is good advice to simply tell him to get used to the piano as it stands. The touchrail is not something I've explored, but it sounds to be relatively non-invasive, and might be a good avenue to explore in this situation. The first step, however, is to do exactly what the OP is doing, which is exploring with the dealer what can be done in the normal course of post-purchase set-up.

In my university work, I am working primarily with pianos 20 years and older, and thus feel a lot of freedom to modify set-ups that I find not to be working. My present typical course of action is to limit key front weight to Stanwood's frontweight ceiling, then examine hammer weight and action ratio in order to choose a combination that brings balance weight into a reasonable zone. In a couple of our concert pianos, this has involved removing lead from the fronts of some of the keys -- always by a measured amount, never by guess.

My current project is a 1988 Yamaha CF. Since it is a concert instrument, there is a certain minimum hammer weight profile that I want to achieve, so as to have sufficient presence in the hall. I like to achieve balance weights near the middle of the medium range, or at about 38 grams. My specs for front weight and hammer weight, when considered in relation to the strike ratio of the action as currently configured, yield balance weights pushing past 40, that is, into the the high zone. I'm not considering this to be objectionable enough to justify messing with the action ratio. This was not the case with an Aeolian era Mason & Hamlin I worked on last year. I ended up moving the capstans by what felt to be an obscene amount, but ended up with a configuration that represented a significant improvement for the users.

I find this to be a fascinating field of knowledge to explore, and am grateful for the effort Stanwood, Gravagne, Fandrich, Rhodes, and others like them, have put into sharing their research and strategies for dealing fruitfully with the challenges various pianos present. It is possible to proceed with analysis and correction carefully, in an informed manner, and end up with results that are deeply satisfying to those that we serve.