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Ah! thank you EVC. I should have tried harder to find the embed links. Thank you once again!


A man must love a thing very much if he practices it without any hope of fame or money, but even practice it without any hope of doing it well. Such a man must love the toils of the work more than any other man can love the rewards of it.
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Originally Posted by mmathew
Grandstage. Made a decent effort at learning Classical Organ using the two keyboards as upper and lower manuals. Classical organ was too difficult for me to keep up with and advance beyond bare basics.
Particularly when learning, you made it hard for yourself by having those two keyboards so far apart. If the front of the Hammond were resting directly on the back of the Grandstage (using a stand that woul provide support for the back of the Hammond when set up that way), working on two manual parts would have been easier.

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Originally Posted by anotherscott
Originally Posted by mmathew
Grandstage. Made a decent effort at learning Classical Organ using the two keyboards as upper and lower manuals. Classical organ was too difficult for me to keep up with and advance beyond bare basics.
Particularly when learning, you made it hard for yourself by having those two keyboards so far apart. If the front of the Hammond were resting directly on the back of the Grandstage (using a stand that woul provide support for the back of the Hammond when set up that way), working on two manual parts would have been easier.

You're probably right Scott. It was something about the stand, and my height (I'm 6' 4"), and that I'd wanted to see the layout of the Grandstage when playing - or a combination of these that led me to set it up this way. Looking back, all I needed was the Hammond when playing organ and I didn't need any of the features of the GS (except maybe the touch setting). Nevertheless, it would appear I didn't really have the drive to try harder. I don't blame the setup. The sounds of Classical Organ still haunt me, every day, so who knows, I might get more keyboards in the future (back to original topic). But if that were to happen, I'll take the well organized SKX.

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I have a Roland FP-80, a Roland FP-7F, a Yamaha P-125, a Roland Go-Piano, a Casio SA-46 (which is really a toy but I use it sometimes to teach music theory and solfege), a small 32-key MIDI controller, and an acoustic baby grand (Yamaha GB1K).


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Originally Posted by anotherscott
Originally Posted by Chummy
That being said, brining 2 keyboards for every band rehearsal or gig is a big hassle... way more to carry and strain your back (and car).. having to bring a double tiered keyboard stand...
OTOH... it's very nice to have hammer action for piano and not for organ... and as you alluded to, with two boards, you can minimize the need for (and the hassles of) splits (generally needing to set them up ahead of time, having to have enough keys for each part, running out of keys and crossing over into the "wrong" part when soloing, often not being able to easily and samlessly change your right hand sound while your left hand sound keeps going, etc.)... and if a board fails (gets a drink spilled into it, gets dropped, whatever), you can still get through the gig on the other board.

True. Everything depends of course on how much you're being paid it at all for the gig, and how big is your act. Ideally it's more fun to have 2 keyboards with different actions and no splits available, but what I said above may detract from the fun factor and is not always nessecary. If your main income is from gigging then that's another story .. same goes for having roadies then you can go as wild as you want.

Quote
It doesn't have to be way more to carry and strain your back... the hammer action can be a 24 lb casio, the board above could be any of a number of boards in, say, the 8-15 lb range. A double-tiered stand like the K&M 1880+18881 stacker moves in one piece with the top tier attached, so is no harder to deal with than a single tier stand... and it only weighs about 8 lbs... the difference between the 1 and 2 tier version is negligible. I'm just saying there are solutions to most of the things you don't like about a 2-board rig, if one wants its benefits. It does take more space andmore setup/breakdown time, though.

Those lightweight hammer action compact Casio keyboards don't have the best keybeds whatsoever. It's a bit less than decent at best, even the newer models that I've seen. Compromising on keyboard action for the sake of being able to carry one more keyboard is a bad advice. But then again it also depends on what you play and your skill level. If you're not a pianist and just play some chords on a pop band on the bottom keyboard utilizing mostly the midrange, than you don't even need 88 keys not to mention triple sensor keyboard and realistic piano action. and then sure, get a 76 weighted and sa small synth/organ on top.

The OP or anyone else for that matter knows his own situation the best, which is why one should look at the principles and apply them in his own domain, cause some of them may not even be relevant to him/her.


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Originally Posted by Chummy
Those lightweight hammer action compact Casio keyboards don't have the best keybeds whatsoever. It's a bit less than decent at best, even the newer models that I've seen. Compromising on keyboard action for the sake of being able to carry one more keyboard is a bad advice.
I'm okay with the Casio actions. I think I'd have to look at something in the 40-50 lb range to get something significantly better. That's too heavy for me to take around. Even if total weight is the same, it's much harder to move a board like that around than to move a pair of boards that each weighs 20-ish lbs or less. So the choice isn't really a light 88 + 2nd boards versus a higher quality 88, since that higher quality 88 is out of the question. So the choice is more like a 24 lb Casio alone, or a 24 lb Casio and some other light board. (Or forego the hammer action and just travel with a non-hammer board.)

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I agree that Casio action is okay. Especially for a traveling keyboard. I will never lug around a 40lb plus keyboard anymore. Now I would love a Kawai MP11se set up to play but I wouldn't want to transport it myself. I'm too old and weak frown


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Just a quick followup for Randyman and anyone else who might have taken note of this...
Originally Posted by anotherscott
I may swap the PA1000 out for the Yamaha PSR-900SX... the Korg is more fully featured overall (e.g. aftertouch, full sound editability, tilt screen which can be helpful on a high tier or outdoors, MIDI zone functions) but I may prefer the actual sounds and operational ergonomics of the Yamaha (and its assignable outs would be handy, too). It's possible that the trio of PC4, MODX7, and PA1000 could be replaced with the pair of PC4-7 and PSR-900SX
I've decided to stick with the MODX7 and PA1000. The PSR-900SX is tempting... interface/ergonomics do look nice (from what I can tell from videos/docs) and I'm always a sucker for that, but then I go play the PA1000 again and don't want to give it up!

I'm sure I'd enjoy the PSR's sounds, but for everything that sounds better in the Yamaha, there's probably something else that sounds better in the Korg... and I *do* have many similar Yamaha sounds in the MODX (which itself is a really great board)... so the combination of that MODX and that Korg gives me probably the fullest sonic potential, plus the Korg weighs a bit less than the PSR (and already seems a tad heavy to me!). As nice as that PSR seems, I'd be losing too much that the MODX7 can do and too much that the PA1000 can do.

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Originally Posted by MacMacMac

I think anotherscott wins by a large margin ...

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You can bet that those are just the keyboards of his that are set up currently.


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Originally Posted by anotherscott
Just a quick followup for Randyman and anyone else who might have taken note of this...
Originally Posted by anotherscott
I may swap the PA1000 out for the Yamaha PSR-900SX... the Korg is more fully featured overall (e.g. aftertouch, full sound editability, tilt screen which can be helpful on a high tier or outdoors, MIDI zone functions) but I may prefer the actual sounds and operational ergonomics of the Yamaha (and its assignable outs would be handy, too). It's possible that the trio of PC4, MODX7, and PA1000 could be replaced with the pair of PC4-7 and PSR-900SX
I've decided to stick with the MODX7 and PA1000. The PSR-900SX is tempting... interface/ergonomics do look nice (from what I can tell from videos/docs) and I'm always a sucker for that, but then I go play the PA1000 again and don't want to give it up!

I'm sure I'd enjoy the PSR's sounds, but for everything that sounds better in the Yamaha, there's probably something else that sounds better in the Korg... and I *do* have many similar Yamaha sounds in the MODX (which itself is a really great board)... so the combination of that MODX and that Korg gives me probably the fullest sonic potential, plus the Korg weighs a bit less than the PSR (and already seems a tad heavy to me!). As nice as that PSR seems, I'd be losing too much that the MODX7 can do and too much that the PA1000 can do.

The overlap between the samples in Yamaha synths and arrangers is significant and the voices that are common, usually have inferior quality compared to synths.

I once compared my MOTIF XF cello and contrabass samples with PSR-S970 and my MOTIF had more samples in the lower ends for cello.

You can always trigger the voices of MODX with PA1000 and Yamahafy the out put of your performance.


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Originally Posted by Randyman
Originally Posted by Sebs
@randyman
I was also wondering about learning curve of a workstation. I read that Nord is known for being more user friendly and ‘easier’ to learn the controls.

The Nord Stage, the closest they come to having a workstation, is NOT a workstation. It's a stage keyboard that is optimized for live sound.

You've got to ask yourself, how much sampling and sequencing do you need to do with a synth. Otherwise use a DAW. Music is about the speed of creativity, and too many technical hassles are a real drag on enjoying playing.

The only way I'd recommend a workstation (which usually implies serious sound tweaking, a sequencer, audio recording of your playing and incoming audio, sampler, drum machine/patterns capability, some arranger talents, etc.)- the only way is if you've read enough reports/YouTube videos that you were convinced that the specific job you want to do with a workstation is user friendly and encourages the workflow.

A better forum to ask about workstations is the Keyboard Corner forum. Lots of friendly folks who have all manner of keyboards and who would be better suited to answer your question. This forum tends to be piano-centric, which is why I come here.

Thanks for clarifying this. I thought all keyboards with multiple sound engines were 'workstations' - sounds like the workstations are the complex ones to use as it's like having a DAW on the keyboard? I didn't know there was a keyboard corner on this forum. I'll hop over there if needed for any qq related to it.

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Originally Posted by Abdol
The overlap between the samples in Yamaha synths and arrangers is significant and the voices that are common
Yes, though I wish there was more solid info available about which PSR-SX900 sounds were or were not also in the Montage/MODX. Obviously, you lose the organ flutes (no big deal, I have better organs anyway), and you lose megavoices (also no big deal, as those are only use for backing tracks, which I don't care about), but I'm not sure exactly to what extent the MODX/Montage contain the rest of the keyboard-playable sounds of the arrangers. (The Genos has the appeal of all the Ensemble and SA2 voices that are not in the MODX/Montage, but those are not in the PSR-SX900 either.) If there is indeed not much in the PSR that doesn't exist (identically or bettered) in the MODX, that further reduces the PSR's appeal for someone who owns a MODX and doesn't care about accompaniment features.

Originally Posted by Abdol
You can always trigger the voices of MODX with PA1000 and Yamahafy the out put of your performance.
That actually wouldn't work so well. While it's a nice feature that the PA1000 can integrate external voices over MIDI, it's a little clumsy in implementation on the Korg side, and the MODX is also a bit clumsy on the receiving side, making that probably a particularly awkward combination. But it might be worth playing with using the PA1000 or some other board to trigger MODX sounds sometimes just to get the aftertouch! For the most part, though, I'll probably be perfectly content playing Yamaha parts on the MODX, Korg parts on the PA1000.

Originally Posted by Sebs
Thanks for clarifying this. I thought all keyboards with multiple sound engines were 'workstations' - sounds like the workstations are the complex ones to use as it's like having a DAW on the keyboard.
Keyboards with multitrack editable linear sequencers are workstations. There are workstations with a single sound engine (most of them, probably), and there are boards with multiple sound engines that are not workstations. It's the ability to create a complete composistion a track at a time that makes something a workstation, based on the most common use of the term. It is indeed like having a DAW in the keyboard, except in most (not all) cases, no audio tracks, just MIDI. So, I guess DAW without the A. ;-) As for how complex it is, it depends what you need to do. Kronos can certainly be complex. But you can also assemble presets of your favorite sounds and combinations, and use its Set List screen to just switch among your favorite sounds while playing, and that's not very complicated at all.

Originally Posted by Sebs
I didn't know there was a keyboard corner on this forum.
He was referring to this: http://forums.musicplayer.com/ubbthreads.php/forums/18/1/The_Keyboard_Corner

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Originally Posted by anotherscott
Originally Posted by Sebs
I didn't know there was a keyboard corner on this forum.
He was referring to this: http://forums.musicplayer.com/ubbthreads.php/forums/18/1/The_Keyboard_Corner
Thank you. I"ll admit was looking on PW for it.

Now I need to figure audio for playing out loud. Such as do I get another set of studio monitors or put both keyboards through one source and get a different sound set up. It looks like you have on nice set up with everything running through one system?

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@AnotherScott,
Thanks, a little tag team here. I thought the entire planet knew about the Keyboard Corner forum!


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Originally Posted by anotherscott
Originally Posted by Chummy
Those lightweight hammer action compact Casio keyboards don't have the best keybeds whatsoever. It's a bit less than decent at best, even the newer models that I've seen. Compromising on keyboard action for the sake of being able to carry one more keyboard is a bad advice.
I'm okay with the Casio actions. I think I'd have to look at something in the 40-50 lb range to get something significantly better. That's too heavy for me to take around. Even if total weight is the same, it's much harder to move a board like that around than to move a pair of boards that each weighs 20-ish lbs or less. So the choice isn't really a light 88 + 2nd boards versus a higher quality 88, since that higher quality 88 is out of the question. So the choice is more like a 24 lb Casio alone, or a 24 lb Casio and some other light board. (Or forego the hammer action and just travel with a non-hammer board.)

Not sure about the pound measurements and I get the jist of what you're saying. I agree with you, as my KAWAI ES 920 for being the lightest in its class (so they say) is still deceptively light.. Which is why my solution is a soft case with wheels. So lugging it around actually makes very easy - no need to strain my back on a weekly basis.. I'd say every keyboard above 12 kilos could consider a case with wheels cause how much $ does continually straining your back and possibly causing chronic pain worth? Also a keyboard's weight is never the actual weight anyway, cause any keyboard carried in any case + pedal + power chords and maybe cables added contribute to the max weight .

I'd rather have no compromise on my 88 keyboard as I play sophisticated stuff on it, Ragtime, Stride, solos, etc. so I wouldn't be able to do with a sub-par action for "proper" piano playing. I onced gigged with a Nord Stage 3 88 loaned from a friend, playing some of my Ragtime pieces and it was atrocious. Even if the Casio's action is as good as a super expensive Nord (and I have no direct comparison), well.. it's still bad from a pianist standpoint. Again for pop stuff, mostly chords playing it's great no probs..

If it works for u, fine. I know what works for me. Perhaps in 20 years I'll think differently who knows


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Originally Posted by Sebs
Such as do I get another set of studio monitors or put both keyboards through one source and get a different sound set up. It looks like you have on nice set up with everything running through one system?
Yes, all the boards go into a mixer. Then I can either use headphones out of the mixer, or run it out to powered external amplification.

Originally Posted by Chummy
Not sure about the pound measurements and I get the jist of what you're saying. I agree with you, as my KAWAI ES 920 for being the lightest in its class (so they say) is still deceptively light.. Which is why my solution is a soft case with wheels. So lugging it around actually makes very easy - no need to strain my back on a weekly basis.. I'd say every keyboard above 12 kilos could consider a case with wheels
That ES920 at 17 kg + case is typically more than I want to carry around. Yes, 12 kg is about my limit except for "special ocassions." So rephrasing my earlier post, my choice isn't between something like an ES 920 vs. two lighter boards, but rather between a single board up to ~12 kg, or 2 boards up to about ~12 kg each. But we each decide on the trade-offs we're wiling to make!

I have used heavier boards. I've even tried and abandoned rolling cases for them, because the cases with wheels themselves tend to add noticeably more weight than the plain cases without them. The problem is that, too often, the wheels don't help. They don't help if there are steps (which there always are getting out of my house, regardless of whether there are steps at the venue), they don't help with getting the gear in and out of the car or up and down off the stage or up and down off the stand, they don't help over rough pavement that you don't want to subject your board to even in its case, they don't help when you have to transverse hilly lawns or sandy beaches... Some heavy duty carts with great wheels can manage some of this stuff better, but then you're also dealing with hauling around perhaps yet another 15 kg piece you've got to pack into your car and load and unload and find a place for, and still doesn't address the stairs problem. I do have an "okay" cart I often pack into the car, because I have so much stuff to bring in (I also usually bring the PA), but even then, half the time, I end up not using it. But yes, perspectives change over time, and it sounds like you're a lot younger than I am. I doubt I'll still be gigging in 20 years, if I'm lucky enough to make it that far!

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True wheels don't solve the stairs problem, but they solve pretty much everything else, and the wheels don't add any weight to the case whatsoever (It's a bunch of plastic and rubber etc.) I am of course refering to wheeled soft cases and not those bulky metal so called "flight cases" you'd often see mixers and other gear in. I have such case for my other keyboard (which doesn't leave the hosue anyway) but I regret buying the flight cases cause it's so heavy probably as heavy as the keyboard itself. Gonna use it only when moving flats or something.
Going to a band rehearsal tommorow with the ES920, I got lucky it has speakers as this is my first time joining them, (a new forming band for about 2 months) they've got a free practice space from the city hall but no PA there still...

The one disadvantage of an above described soft wheeled case is that the wheels increase the overall length of the keyboard. That may be a problem for some cars/ storages and such. All in all the advantages by far outweight (no pun intended) the cons. On top of that it says KORG with big caps on the case so before I pull my ES920 out people are gonna get jealous because they think I've got a KRONOS xD lol

I still think though what you say is a much better solution in the long run (Regarding carrying weight). Since in this time (virus) I don't go out nearly as much with a keyboard, the time I did it wasn't heavy and I felt comfortable... the biggest con probably is that I have to lower the front sit of my car so the Kawai can actually fit across the car inside the back sit as well... not ideal but works. Which is why I was thinking of getting a second keyboard with 73/76 keys which is lighter, and also has cool organ/synth sounds and no speakers which is gonna be far more convenient to bring to pubs/bars/jams/gigs or whatever where PA or amp is already available. That's gonna be so much more comfortable! not sure which keyboard is good in that regard... I live in a remote area and not a lot of chance to test out keyboards. I've seen your admirable keyboard collection, you're much more versed with different pieces of gear which is why I'd hoped you could offer your insight..
thanks

P.S well I duuno if I'm considered young (27?) but I feel old whenever I see footballers on TV that were born in '99 and '00 I and I feel like a grandpa lol :P


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Originally Posted by Chummy
the wheels don't add any weight to the case whatsoever (It's a bunch of plastic and rubber etc.)
It's not just the wheels, the entire case structure has to be built to support it. If you're handling the gear yourself and are okay with just minimal protection, you can often get a very light simple fabric zippered padded case, but you can't add wheels to a case like that, you can only build wheels onto a case that has a more robust skeleton. So for example, at gator cases, if you check cases for a Kawai ES8 (they didn't have the ES920 listed), you can get a carry bag that weighs as little as 8 lbs (3.6 kg). The lightest case with wheels is 28 lbs (12.7 kg).

You feel old at 27? I was doing gigs for something like 15 years before you were born. ;-)

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The Kawai-built case for the ES8 / ES 520 / ES 920 is very light AND has wheels. It doesn't have a firm skeleton inside, just thick padding. Mine came folded in half in a box. The snugly-fit keyboard provides the structure. I highly recommend it, as long as you're not checking it for a flight or anything. Perfect for loading in the van and dragging into the venue.

And to answer the original question for myself, I've got a real parlor grand and a Kawai ES8. And two excellent accordions, and a melodica from when I had shoulder surgery.

Two weeks ago, the power cable failed on the ES8 (the wires were exposed on the DC side of the transformer). I ordered one through my local dealer, but it's unclear when it will come in.

So I looked on local used-stuff websites, in case someone might happen to be selling an old ES4 or such, so that I could use its power supply and I'd have a backup electric piano. And lo-and-behold, a used ES520 for $900, including a stand and a bench! I know people who haven't been able to get an ES520 new yet. So, I've got that for gigs and rehearsals where I don't need the absolute in piano quality but want a keyboard that's several dozen pounds lighter. I'll admit that I prefer the ES8's key bed, so someday I may trade it for an ES920.


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