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I thought I had lost this video that has short videos of Yamaha pianos being reconditioned in Japan by Takemoto Piano Company. There were other clips showing strings being tortured by wire brushes but these have disappeared. I guess every piano gets the same treatment and 'overspray' to suggest newness. I have only this to say 'Caveat emptor'
http://www.used-piano.com/maintenance.htm
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Are they only reconditioning the cosmetics part of the piano, or do they try to make piano perform better?


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there seems to be lots of companies like this, e.g.
https://www.fujigakki.co.jp/business_en/business.html

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Them: 20ft or 40ft?

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I'm inexperienced buying pianos, and there is a lot of information out on the web with some people saying gray markets don't hold a tune and aren't climatized, while others say it's a conspiracy by Yamaha USA to bad mouth imported refurbs that cut into their markets Tutuapp 9Apps Showbox.

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I once owned a gray market Yamaha and loved it. Did not have it long, bought it not long after it was refurbed and shipped here. I thought all the negative talk about gray market Yamahas was a bunch of hogwash. I sold it and then saw it maybe 5 years into its new life and it had turned into a piece of junk. The soundboard had even cracked. So now I am skeptical of the quality of the gray market Yamahas.

Your mileage may vary.


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I asked my piano tuner this exact question the last time he was here. He is an independent guy, not affiliated with a shop or brand.

He says he sees no evidence of more problems with the grey market pianos than with “bought new local” like my U1 in his 30 years of experience.

But like everything you can’t generalise too much. Maybe we’re just lucky in my city and the big piano warehouse store that sells the grey imports has always gone to the most reputable Japanese reconditioners for their stock. It could be completely different if the market here had been polluted by bad pianos from corner-cutting workshops who polish the case and get the piano out the door.

And no doubt in some places that has happened.


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I have told what happened to us about a YU10 upright we bought from small store in Richmond in 2017.
It was was a fairly new upright (made in 2012) and newly arrived from Japan. The dealer insisted that we make an appointment when we needed to see the instrument to try it. The tone was really very attractive. And it looked so shiny and new.
Not being a member of any piano forum I traded my 80's U1 in
for this newer YU10, which I was told was even better than a new U1.
The beginning of my upright piano journey had just begun and
I never had a clue .A day after the piano was delivered I realised the piano was unbelievably out of tune.
We did our own examination of the piano. I happened to bend down and saw mud in the felt around the pedals ! After a few days of anxiety, and a written report by our technician the piano was returned to the dealer. We agreed to pay for the delivery.
We were refunded the full amount but we lost our totally functional U1 that we traded in for this "instrument".
Later of course we bought a Sauter 130 upright and then the Schimmel Konzert 132.

We did however buy a Kawai K502 (1984) in 2019 from a very well known rebuilder on Vancouver BC (he is a member of PW)
I needed another piano for my teaching and this piano has a truly beautiful tone and a wonderful action.
We were told that this piano was on consignment and the rebuilder knew the history of this piano. It was first bought from him 20 years ago by a lady who loved this piano for many years. She had now needed to sell this piano. There was much to love ., Its mellow , singing tone was really quite something unusual even among Kawai pianos . It was sensitive and responsive to the pianist. It had the most beautiful wood finish. We tend to like polished ebony uprights, but we could not resist this lovely instrument. Needless to say it never matched any of our furniture. It did however have a few minor "dings"on the fallboard which were not really noticeable.
So the piano became part of my piano room. It held its tuning extremely well.(in both summer and winter)
Really the piano had been in Canada for 20 years after arriving from Japan .So it had adjusted well and was a successful "grey" piano.
One thing about this piano that was noticeable however was that it never had any if these factory stickers that said it was refurbished by T......... . So did the piano come into the country in a "more honest" way ? Perhaps the original owner emigrated to Canada?
When it became clear I could no longer teach the piano at all ,due to the Covid pandemic we decided to sell this beautiful instrument. Tuning and taking care of an accoustic piano costs money. It would not be worth keeping as I already had an excellent piano.
We sold the piano to a newly wed young couple for almost the same price we bought it. It was a gift from the young woman's
father. She was so delighted with it, we reduced the price by a few hundred $. I had owned that piano for just over a year .
The important thing about buying such a piano is the dealers reputation .I know that piano will last for many years. When it was serviced by an excellent technician he was amazed how good the soundboard, hammers and action were.

Last edited by Lady Bird; 02/14/21 11:08 PM. Reason: missing text
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Originally Posted by Lady Bird
I have told what happened to us about a YU10 upright we bought from small store in Richmond in 2017.
It was was a fairly new upright (made in 2012) and newly arrived from Japan. The dealer insisted that we make an appointment when we needed to see the instrument to try it. The tone was really very attractive. And it looked so shiny and new.
Not being a member of any piano forum I traded my 80's U1 in
for this newer YU10, which I was told was even better than a new U1.
The beginning of my upright piano journey had just begun and
I never had a clue .A day after the piano was delivered I realised the piano was unbelievably out of tune.
We did our own examination of the piano. I happened to bend down and saw mud in the felt around the pedals ! After a few days of anxiety, and a written report by our technician the piano was returned to the dealer. We agreed to pay for the delivery.
We were refunded the full amount but we lost our totally functional U1 that we traded in for this "instrument".
Later of course we bought a Sauter 130 upright and then the Schimmel Konzert 132.

We did however buy a Kawai K502 (1984) in 2019 from a very well known rebuilder on Vancouver BC (he is a member of PW)
I needed another piano for my teaching and this piano has a truly beautiful tone and a wonderful action.
We were told that this piano was on consignment and the rebuilder knew the history of this piano. It was first bought from him 20 years ago by a lady who loved this piano for many years. She had now needed to sell this piano. There was much to love ., Its mellow , singing tone was really quite something unusual even among Kawai pianos . It was sensitive and responsive to the pianist. It had the most beautiful wood finish. We tend to like polished ebony uprights, but we could not resist this lovely instrument. Needless to say it never matched any of our furniture. It did however have a few minor "dings"on the fallboard which were not really noticeable.
So the piano became part of my piano room. It held its tuning extremely well.(in both summer and winter)
Really the piano had been in Canada for 20 years after arriving from Japan .So it had adjusted well and was a successful "grey" piano.
One thing about this piano that was noticeable however was that it never had any if these factory stickers that said it was refurbished by T......... . So did the piano come into the country in a "more honest" way ? Perhaps the original owner emigrated to Canada?
When it became clear I could no longer teach the piano at all ,due to the Covid pandemic we decided to sell this beautiful instrument. Tuning and taking care of an accoustic piano costs money. It would not be worth keeping as I already had an excellent piano.
We sold the piano to a newly wed young couple for almost the same price we bought it. It was a gift from the young woman's
father. She was so delighted with it, we reduced the price by a few hundred $. I had owned that piano for just over a year .
The important thing about buying such a piano is the dealers reputation .I know that piano will last for many years. When it was serviced by an excellent technician he was amazed how good the soundboard, hammers and action were.

Very interesting piano adventures, Lady Bird! And, a good read! smile

I know this may seem odd to some, but I think I'd rather buy a piano in its original condition, rather than reconditioned/refurbished. Then, I can decide for myself what needs to be refurbished, replace, serviced, or rebuilt, if anything, grey market or not. When you buy something someone else has "reconditioned" or refurbished, you are at their mercy as to whether or not they replaced worn parts or components, used good quality parts or components or did decent work replacing those components.

I know selling reconditioned, refurbished and restored/rebuilt pianos is big business, but, if I'm buying used to begin with, I'd rather buy it in original, unrestored condition, and go from there.

It is the same with buying a used auto. I'm not sure how much confidence and value I put in a so-called rebuilt engine or transmission, unless I know the deepest of details, quality of parts, and who did the work.

So, not all reconditioned, refurbished, restored, and rebuild pianos are the same... hence, no, I'm not so sure I would want to buy a "reconditioned" Yamaha, or any other brand, without the deepest of intricate details and confidence in who did the reconditioning.

Rick


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Now you got me worried!. My 1976 U3H was bought by me just shy of a year ago (18 Feb 2020) from a local recording studio which had it for less than 4 years, tuned regularly. Former owner had bought it reconditioned in May 2016 (I have a copy of the invoice). In March last year, just a week before lockdown, the tuner came home and tuned it. He said it was in very good shape and praised the hammers. In fact he took a picture of them, to get same ones for a work he had... So I was pretty happy. And it has kept tuning nicely. During lockdown, out of necessity, I did some fine adjustments to it, as it seems higher humidity at my home produced some escapement problems, but they were very consistent in all keys, so I was able to adjust them and it has worked fine since.

But... It is not an official Yamaha refurbished unit. I know the company which did the work, not personally, but they are one of the largest sellers in this area. I have not read bad things about them and they are still selling similar units. And the work on my unit seems good to my non-pro eye... Perhaps my worries are unfounded... I guess I will find out in some years!


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Originally Posted by EB5AGV
Now you got me worried!. My 1976 U3H was bought by me just shy of a year ago (18 Feb 2020) from a local recording studio which had it for less than 4 years, tuned regularly. Former owner had bought it reconditioned in May 2016 (I have a copy of the invoice). In March last year, just a week before lockdown, the tuner came home and tuned it. He said it was in very good shape and praised the hammers. In fact he took a picture of them, to get same ones for a work he had... So I was pretty happy. And it has kept tuning nicely. During lockdown, out of necessity, I did some fine adjustments to it, as it seems higher humidity at my home produced some escapement problems, but they were very consistent in all keys, so I was able to adjust them and it has worked fine since.

But... It is not an official Yamaha refurbished unit. I know the company which did the work, not personally, but they are one of the largest sellers in this area. I have not read bad things about them and they are still selling similar units. And the work on my unit seems good to my non-pro eye... Perhaps my worries are unfounded... I guess I will find out in some years!

I wouldn't worry, EB5AGV. Personal experience usually trumps online forum opinions, for the most part. If you got a good one, (Reconditioned Yamaha) you can rest easy, and you know you got a good one from all the things you mentioned. So, I agree with Learux, enjoy your fine piano!

I think the consensus here, over the years, is that the grey market refurbs can be hit or miss. It sounds like you got a hit! smile

Sometimes you can get a "miss" when buying new. Some call it a lemon. I call it "the law of probability"; actually, there are three basic laws of probability regarding outcomes.

Sorry, too much thinking, too early, need more coffee... smile

Rick


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Originally Posted by Rickster
I know this may seem odd to some, but I think I'd rather buy a piano in its original condition, rather than reconditioned/refurbished. Then, I can decide for myself what needs to be refurbished, replace, serviced, or rebuilt, if anything, grey market or not. When you buy something someone else has "reconditioned" or refurbished, you are at their mercy as to whether or not they replaced worn parts or components, used good quality parts or components or did decent work replacing those components.

I know selling reconditioned, refurbished and restored/rebuilt pianos is big business, but, if I'm buying used to begin with, I'd rather buy it in original, unrestored condition, and go from there.

It is the same with buying a used auto. I'm not sure how much confidence and value I put in a so-called rebuilt engine or transmission, unless I know the deepest of details, quality of parts, and who did the work.

So, not all reconditioned, refurbished, restored, and rebuild pianos are the same... hence, no, I'm not so sure I would want to buy a "reconditioned" Yamaha, or any other brand, without the deepest of intricate details and confidence in who did the reconditioning.

Rick

Interesting, Rick. Though I wonder where that leaves people of my ilk, who are in no way wealthy but still interested in buying a grand piano. If relatively affordable refurb, recon, rebuilt, restored pianos should be steered away from or to be wary of, I wonder what would be the best bet without having to spend 20,000+ on a new instrument. I am admittedly very very inexperienced when it comes to the technical side of pianos and piano buying though I try to read as much as I can and have a general understanding of how to go about choosing or purchasing, what to look out for, etc.

I was under the assumption that buying used but not restored was the tricky bit and that buying restored at least assured that it is in working order, i.e. no insidious problems that lurk with the 'as is'. I realize there's no guarantee in both cases, but I guess it just sort of leaves me unsure of how to go about the whole purchasing process. I know I'm wearing piano 'greenness' on my sleeve and maybe I've got it all wrong, but yeah, I'm going to eventually visit one or two of the dealers over in Midtown when I get back into the city and dip my toes in the waters for the first time, but price-wise, I guess if new is the best bet, which I really can't and wouldn't want to do, that essentially leaves me out.

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Originally Posted by weinstay
Originally Posted by Rickster
I know this may seem odd to some, but I think I'd rather buy a piano in its original condition, rather than reconditioned/refurbished. Then, I can decide for myself what needs to be refurbished, replace, serviced, or rebuilt, if anything, grey market or not. When you buy something someone else has "reconditioned" or refurbished, you are at their mercy as to whether or not they replaced worn parts or components, used good quality parts or components or did decent work replacing those components.

I know selling reconditioned, refurbished and restored/rebuilt pianos is big business, but, if I'm buying used to begin with, I'd rather buy it in original, unrestored condition, and go from there.

It is the same with buying a used auto. I'm not sure how much confidence and value I put in a so-called rebuilt engine or transmission, unless I know the deepest of details, quality of parts, and who did the work.

So, not all reconditioned, refurbished, restored, and rebuild pianos are the same... hence, no, I'm not so sure I would want to buy a "reconditioned" Yamaha, or any other brand, without the deepest of intricate details and confidence in who did the reconditioning.

Rick

Interesting, Rick. Though I wonder where that leaves people of my ilk, who are in no way wealthy but still interested in buying a grand piano. If relatively affordable refurb, recon, rebuilt, restored pianos should be steered away from or to be wary of, I wonder what would be the best bet without having to spend 20,000+ on a new instrument. I am admittedly very very inexperienced when it comes to the technical side of pianos and piano buying though I try to read as much as I can and have a general understanding of how to go about choosing or purchasing, what to look out for, etc.

I was under the assumption that buying used but not restored was the tricky bit and that buying restored at least assured that it is in working order, i.e. no insidious problems that lurk with the 'as is'. I realize there's no guarantee in both cases, but I guess it just sort of leaves me unsure of how to go about the whole purchasing process. I know I'm wearing piano 'greenness' on my sleeve and maybe I've got it all wrong, but yeah, I'm going to eventually visit one or two of the dealers over in Midtown when I get back into the city and dip my toes in the waters for the first time, but price-wise, I guess if new is the best bet, which I really can't and wouldn't want to do, that essentially leaves me out.

Hello, weinstay. No need to wonder where you stand regarding my comments you quoted above. Like I said, I'm an odd-ball of sort here, and most everyone who knows me knows that. It's not a good thing or a bad thing. Just a thing.

That said, in your case, you are in a position that if you want to buy a nice, acoustic grand piano, you have many choices. There are not as many piano dealers as there used to be, but in your area, there are many, I would think. There are also many different brands and makes of pianos, and different price ranges.

There are also many professional technicians, and professional consultants who can help you find a piano, for a fee. That's what they do. Who can you trust? Only you can decide that for yourself.

Do as you say, and go out and look for yourself. Don't wonder about or discount all of your possibilities of success in buying a very nice grand piano, used, reconditioned, or new, based on one person's uniquely individual opinions.

And, like you mentioned, there are no 100% guarantees. You'll know when you find what is right for you, and if it turns out to be wrong, you can redo it or undo it. No single piano purchase is permanent, unless you want it to be. smile

Rick


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Originally Posted by Rickster
Originally Posted by EB5AGV
Now you got me worried!. My 1976 U3H was bought by me just shy of a year ago (18 Feb 2020) from a local recording studio which had it for less than 4 years, tuned regularly. Former owner had bought it reconditioned in May 2016 (I have a copy of the invoice). In March last year, just a week before lockdown, the tuner came home and tuned it. He said it was in very good shape and praised the hammers. In fact he took a picture of them, to get same ones for a work he had... So I was pretty happy. And it has kept tuning nicely. During lockdown, out of necessity, I did some fine adjustments to it, as it seems higher humidity at my home produced some escapement problems, but they were very consistent in all keys, so I was able to adjust them and it has worked fine since.

But... It is not an official Yamaha refurbished unit. I know the company which did the work, not personally, but they are one of the largest sellers in this area. I have not read bad things about them and they are still selling similar units. And the work on my unit seems good to my non-pro eye... Perhaps my worries are unfounded... I guess I will find out in some years!

I wouldn't worry, EB5AGV. Personal experience usually trumps online forum opinions, for the most part. If you got a good one, (Reconditioned Yamaha) you can rest easy, and you know you got a good one from all the things you mentioned. So, I agree with Learux, enjoy your fine piano!

I think the consensus here, over the years, is that the grey market refurbs can be hit or miss. It sounds like you got a hit! smile

Sometimes you can get a "miss" when buying new. Some call it a lemon. I call it "the law of probability"; actually, there are three basic laws of probability regarding outcomes.

Sorry, too much thinking, too early, need more coffee... smile

Rick

I agree with Rick, EP5AGV. It sounds like your piano has been holding up fine.

IIRC, grey market pianos are designated with various gradations of quality (i.e. even the people who import them and those who resell them recognize that they aren't all the same). I think with these, like any piano, the usual advice applies: have it inspected (and buyer beware).


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Originally Posted by Beemer
I thought I had lost this video that has short videos of Yamaha pianos being reconditioned in Japan by Takemoto Piano Company. There were other clips showing strings being tortured by wire brushes but these have disappeared. I guess every piano gets the same treatment and 'overspray' to suggest newness. I have only this to say 'Caveat emptor'
http://www.used-piano.com/maintenance.htm
Ian
A quick look at the repair portion of the video tells me that a majority of “repair” is really more about cleaning. I would imagine they would actually repair or replace obviously broken parts, however. There is no industry standards that specifies what constitutes “refurbishing”, “reconditioning”, or any other terms whether it is a grey market Japanese piano or any domestic brand used piano for that matter.

Now, in terms of grey market pianos being ex institutional instruments, it really depends on the models. Having lived in Japan for some time, l estimate that the uprights are a mix with more pianos from private homes. With grands I’m more familiar with Yamaha, with G series coming mostly from home use while C series originated in the institutions. A piano technician should be able to tell the amount of usage a piano had upon inspection.

I think there is something to be said for the grey market pianos that have been in the destination country for a while in that they have acclimated to the new location. A newly imported piano may adjust fine or all the glue joints and wood parts may dry out. We simply don’t know.

So I wouldn’t rule out a piano just because it is a grey market one, meanwhile would not necessarily seek out a piano with a “reconditioned” sticker on it, either. Caveat emptor!

Last edited by K8KT; 02/16/21 12:55 AM.

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