2017 was our 20th year online!

Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 3 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments.
Over 100,000 members from around the world.
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

Shop our online store for music lovers
SEARCH
Piano Forums & Piano World
(ad) Piano Sight Reading
train piano sight reading with your iPhone or iPad
(ad)
Best of Piano Buyer
 Best of Piano Buyer
(ad)
Pianoteq
Steinway Spiro Layering
(ad)
Wessell Nickel & Gross
PianoForAll
Who's Online Now
38 members (ColoRodney, bilb, ColonelBogey, 36251, Animisha, Consul50, Chris888, brennbaer, Beansparrow, 9 invisible), 437 guests, and 409 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
(ad)
Estonia Pianos
Estonia Pianos
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Hop To
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 3,039
W
3000 Post Club Member
OP Offline
3000 Post Club Member
W
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 3,039
Originally Posted by Maestro Lennie
A really stellar sounding piano!

This quote is from the C. Bechstein and Pierre Laurent Aimard thread about the 1899 Bechstein that Peter Salisbury bought and restored.

I have started this thread to ask Maestro Lennie's question about the piano's DNA.

In the Bechstein/Aimard video Peter Salisbury explained one reason the 1899 Bechstein sounds as it does. The unison strings are of unequal length. He thought Bechstein, Steinway and the industry may have missed a trick by dropping them a few years later.

Do you agree with him? Would you like some modern pianos to have a similar singing sound?

Here are the two videos from the original thread:
1. The Bechstein/Aimard video primed to start at Peter Salisbury's comments at 7:25
2. Kit Armstrong's Vierne Nocturne without his introductory words


Ian Russell
Schiedmayer & Soehne, 1925 Model 14, 140cm
Ibach, 1905 F-IV, 235cm
Joined: Feb 2017
Posts: 3,925
P
3000 Post Club Member
Offline
3000 Post Club Member
P
Joined: Feb 2017
Posts: 3,925
My understanding as to why the design of the bias cut bridge was not "adopted" is that competing sales groups (other manufacturers) used it as a tool to sell their own "traditionally" constructed pianos. They would claim that the "non-traditional" bridge was a cover-up to enhance a faulty design issue in the piano:

"You see, they need to do that because they can't build a piano that will sing...so they have to resort to tricks like that to 'fix' their design mistakes. We don't need that...our pianos sing without that...notice that nobody else does that..."

This kind of competitive (and deceptive) sales tactic was very prevalent then, as piano a were big business. Competitors would quickly point to anything they could and tell the customer a "story" as to why their pianos were better...

Secondly, tuners didn't exactly like it either (similar to Mason & Hamlin screw stringers). It is admittedly a tough sell since serious explanation is required to justify it. I'm open to other explanations s well.

I still think its a great design (and hard to do...not every bellyman can do it well).

Peter Grey Piano Doctor


Peter W. Grey, RPT
New Hampshire Seacoast
www.seacoastpianodoctor.com
pianodoctor57@gmail.com
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PK0T7_I_nV8
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 3,039
W
3000 Post Club Member
OP Offline
3000 Post Club Member
W
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 3,039
Peter, I imagine you are right about market forces.

This may be anathema to you, and I only ask, but with CAD and CNC could some of the "hard" precision work be done by machine?


Ian Russell
Schiedmayer & Soehne, 1925 Model 14, 140cm
Ibach, 1905 F-IV, 235cm
Joined: Feb 2017
Posts: 3,925
P
3000 Post Club Member
Offline
3000 Post Club Member
P
Joined: Feb 2017
Posts: 3,925
Ian,

Probably yes. The big question would be (to a manufacturer) is there enough improvement to warrant the extra work and design change? That is not something I am equipped to answer. It would require significant side by side testing to figure it.out.

Peter Grey Piano Doctor


Peter W. Grey, RPT
New Hampshire Seacoast
www.seacoastpianodoctor.com
pianodoctor57@gmail.com
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PK0T7_I_nV8
Joined: Feb 2017
Posts: 3,925
P
3000 Post Club Member
Offline
3000 Post Club Member
P
Joined: Feb 2017
Posts: 3,925
Tuners are "trained" to think that unisons are supposed to be totally "pure", and anything that stands in the way of that is "wrong" or "defective". This comes from the days when it was impossible to "micro-inspect" string vibrations. It was ASSUMED that once the tuner got the unison "beatless" that all three strings were at the exact same pitch/frequency. Well the facts are that this is not (in fact hardly ever.. approaching never) the case. The degree of deviance depends on the circumstances and in actual fact, if the strings are in fact tuned electronically to the exact same frequency (individually) the unison will rarely (if ever) sound it's best.

However it is difficult to break this hard core thinking, and since it is open to interpretation ("mis-tuning, mal-tuning, sloppiness, etc etc) many refuse to accept it. "Color" and "purity" are both terms difficult to fully quantify or describe accurately.

Peter Grey Piano Doctor


Peter W. Grey, RPT
New Hampshire Seacoast
www.seacoastpianodoctor.com
pianodoctor57@gmail.com
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PK0T7_I_nV8
Joined: Nov 2017
Posts: 657
O
500 Post Club Member
Offline
500 Post Club Member
O
Joined: Nov 2017
Posts: 657
BTW, here is another recording from the Wigmore Hall, this time with Kit Armstrong, who also gives a short introduction:


Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 3,039
W
3000 Post Club Member
OP Offline
3000 Post Club Member
W
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 3,039
Snap!

After that recording, you mentioned the piano went off to Berlin for some recording sessions. Do you know if any of those Berlin recordings are available?

Leading question: do you think Bechstein might ever produce such a piano again with different unison string lengths if only for show?


Ian Russell
Schiedmayer & Soehne, 1925 Model 14, 140cm
Ibach, 1905 F-IV, 235cm
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 3,889
J
3000 Post Club Member
Offline
3000 Post Club Member
J
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 3,889
Originally Posted by Withindale
Snap!

After that recording, you mentioned the piano went off to Berlin for some recording sessions. Do you know if any of those Berlin recordings are available?

Leading question: do you think Bechstein might ever produce such a piano again with different unison string lengths if only for show?

Honestly I doubt they would remake the instruments of the past because while they were extremely beautiful, they aren’t now regarded as the most versatile in terms of current tastes. I know that’s a personal question of aesthetics and taste but it’s my tuppenceworth on the matter

Joined: Feb 2017
Posts: 3,925
P
3000 Post Club Member
Offline
3000 Post Club Member
P
Joined: Feb 2017
Posts: 3,925
Independent restorers could though. With a new cap it's perfectly feasible if the skills are there. I know I do not have the skill to do it.

Peter Grey Piano Doctor


Peter W. Grey, RPT
New Hampshire Seacoast
www.seacoastpianodoctor.com
pianodoctor57@gmail.com
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PK0T7_I_nV8
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 728
I
500 Post Club Member
Offline
500 Post Club Member
I
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 728
Or could bridge agraffes be designed to accomplish the same result? It seems like something Stuart & Sons or Phoenix could easily experiment with or offer as an alternative design.

Larry.

Joined: Jan 2020
Posts: 542
M
500 Post Club Member
Offline
500 Post Club Member
M
Joined: Jan 2020
Posts: 542
Anyway, the new recording sounds fantastic!

Joined: Nov 2017
Posts: 657
O
500 Post Club Member
Offline
500 Post Club Member
O
Joined: Nov 2017
Posts: 657

Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 2,808
D
2000 Post Club Member
Offline
2000 Post Club Member
D
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 2,808
Thank you OE1FEU! Or here from Presto Classical, where you can sample the tracks.

Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 3,039
W
3000 Post Club Member
OP Offline
3000 Post Club Member
W
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 3,039
Thank you, OE1FEU and David for the link. Captivating Brahms - viola, piano and baritone. Not to be missed, samples or the CD.

Great "close-ups" of the piano sound.


Ian Russell
Schiedmayer & Soehne, 1925 Model 14, 140cm
Ibach, 1905 F-IV, 235cm

Moderated by  Ken Knapp, Piano World 

Link Copied to Clipboard
(ad)
Faust Harrison Pianos
Faust Harrison 100+ Steinway pianos
(ad)
Couch to Concert Hall
Couch to Concert Hall
(ad)
PianoDisc

PianoDisc
(ad)
Piano Life Saver - Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
(ad)
Mason & Hamlin Pianos
New Topics - Multiple Forums
What to check when getting a new piano
by Dong Huynh - 04/19/21 05:13 AM
Standchen which version of sheet music ?
by jzmeister1 - 04/19/21 03:47 AM
Strings termination
by Guido, Roma - Italy - 04/19/21 03:04 AM
Mozart vs. Salieri
by grand_BB_71 - 04/19/21 02:52 AM
Soft pedal rod falling off on Kawai K500
by ADIRL - 04/18/21 11:05 PM
Download Sheet Music
Virtual Sheet Music - Classical Sheet Music Downloads
Forum Statistics
Forums42
Topics206,390
Posts3,084,002
Members101,234
Most Online15,252
Mar 21st, 2010
Please Support Our Advertisers

Faust Harrison 100+ Steinways

Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver

 Best of Piano Buyer

PianoTeq Bechstein
Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers

Virtual Sheet Music - Classical Sheet Music Downloads



 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
| Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter |


© copyright 1997 - 2021 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5