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Originally Posted by Withindale
Originally Posted by Retsacnal
Interesting. OE1FEU butts heads with yet another well-respected life-long industry stalwart!

On the one hand, we have a seasoned industry pro, who's been in the business--if I'm not mistaken--since the 1970s. And when I say, "in the business," I mean a businessman who conducts business, a rainmaker, who operates internationally. On the other hand, we have a guy who hasn't yet reached his 2nd anniversary in his first piano industry job. One guy writes the checks, and the other guy draws a check.

It's clear that OE1FEU loves his job, and is a loyal employee, but I can't seriously accept the unsubstantiated opinion and chiding of a junior employee over the wisdom and experience of someone who's spent his life conducting business in the industry.

Clearly, this round goes to master88er.

This looks like an unwarranted attack on a PW member.

And not the first in this thread either. Is this kind of ********* really necessary?

Last edited by Ken Knapp; 02/05/21 12:36 PM. Reason: Profanity removed. Keep it family friendly.
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Originally Posted by master88er
Stefan Freymuth is the current Chairman of C.Bechstein.

Market Screener did not work on my mobile phone, hence this for reference:
Stefan Freymuth is a businessperson who has been at the head of 9 different companies. Mr. Freymuth holds the position of Chairman-Management Board & CEO for C. Bechstein Pianofortefabrik AG [since 2017], Co-Managing Director at Kuthe GmbH., Co-Managing Director at Arnold Kuthe Angloterra GmbH and Co-Managing Director at Arnold Kuthe Betriebsvermögens GmbH (both are subsidiaries of Kuthe GmbH.), Co-Managing Director at Arnold Kuthe Beteiligungs-GmbH, Co-Managing Director at Arnold Kuthe Finanzvermögens-GmbH, Managing Director at Sapphire Beteiligungs GmbH, Co-Managing Director at Carl Bechstein Liegenschaften GmbH and Co-Managing Director at Arnold Kuthe Liegenschaften GmbH.

https://www.bloomberg.com/profile/company/8594694Z:GR
Kuthe GmbH provides real estate services. The Company offers construction and management of office buildings. Kuthe serves customers in Germany.

Also see http://www.kuthe.de/ which gives the company name as Arnold Kuthe Immobilienverwaltungs- GmbH and currently has a gallery of its properties.

Note: Collins Dictionary says Möbel is the German translation of 'furniture'.

The Bechstein supervisory board publishes annual reports on the company's activities on the website under Investor Relations (you may have to Google for them).


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I think there’s a misunderstanding here.
Based on company format like AG, a public company, the company is run by but not owned by the board of directors. You’d have to look at the trade registry, Handelsregister, to verify ownership. An Aktiengesellschaft like Bechstein is owned by the Gesellschafter or shareholders; not the directors (who get paid to run the company). Only in non public companies like Sauter (?) would the owner also be the CEO or similar.

The degree of personal attacks openly tolerated on this forum astounds me, with "**********“ the latest. So it’s ok to call people ****** and their posts ******?

Last edited by Ken Knapp; 02/05/21 12:38 PM. Reason: Profanity removed. Keep it family friendly. NOTE: You complain about profanity then quote it???????

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Windjammer
If you believe a post is inappropriate, you should use the report post option ( drop down list upper right hand corner). A moderator of the group of moderators will review.
Moderators do not scan these forums.


"Music, rich, full of feeling, not soulless, is like a crystal on which the sun falls and brings forth from it a whole rainbow" - F. Chopin
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Originally Posted by Windjammer
The degree of personal attacks openly tolerated on this forum astounds me, with "**********“ the latest. So it’s ok to call people ******* and their posts ******?

How is pointing out the nasty vindictiveness (AKA **********) in this thread a personal attack?

Last edited by Ken Knapp; 02/05/21 02:22 PM. Reason: Profanity removed. Keep it family friendly.
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Originally Posted by master88er
With all due respect Madame, your posts are so outrageous that you might consider moving to the USA and running for Congress!

Maybe you should leave politics aside.

From this link you posted: The initiative for its development came from piano manufacturers Steingraeber & Söhne in Bayreuth.


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Originally Posted by master88er
While it has little to do with the resultant product, there are only two German manufacturers that have principal majority ownership by the founding family: Blüthner and Steingraeber.

According to Piano Buyer
https://www.pianobuyer.com/brand/forster-august/
Quote
After the reunification of Germany and privatization, Wolfgang and his family once again owned their company. August Förster GmbH is now managed in the fifth generation by Wolfgang’s daughter, Annekatrin Förster.

My impression was that August Förster is family owned.

Last edited by Skjalg; 02/05/21 12:26 PM.
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1. Let's keep the profanity off the forum.
2. How about if you think something is horrible you refrain from quoting it?
3. If something is directed to a person it is better if THEY report it IF THEY consider it offensive.
If I only had a dime for every time someone reported what someone said to someone else and that someone else did not find it offensive at all...


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Ken Knapp, thanks for stepping in. I apologize for quoting the content I took exception to (if only for purposes to identify that content). I messaged you privately to highlight that profanity is still quoted on this page - I'll refrain from quoting it in public, of course.
Originally Posted by Gretel
Originally Posted by master88er
With all due respect Madame, your posts are so outrageous that you might consider moving to the USA and running for Congress!

Maybe you should leave politics aside.

From this link you posted: The initiative for its development came from piano manufacturers Steingraeber & Söhne in Bayreuth.

Oh, nobody doubts that the initiative for the ZDH label came from S&S. We're all curious to hear what sources you have for your claim that "Steingräber basically invented their own label." Do you believe S&S control the content and certification process of the ZDH post-approval?

Do you have any additional ways to detract from the fact that we're discussing Bechstein and Bechstein refuses to answer these very straightforward questions:

1. Did Bechstein historically ever seek BVK certification and were they in the reject pile among the 95 or so applicants?
2. Does Bechstein source non-European timbers and non-German timbers for its most expensive instruments (upright and grands), and if so, what percentage of timer in the final instrument is non-German sourced? If the precise % is not known or subject to variation, what is the approximate % in line with the public statements that Sauter, S&S, Grotrian, Bluethner, and others have released?
3. Did Bechstein's executives - contrast: 2nd year sales person earning a living off sales commission - contact Larry Fine in the last 2-3 years to update Larry Fine with critical manufacturing and sourcing updates that Larry Fine refused to update in the most recent annual update (because they were not properly documented)? Or did Bechstein's executives just never reach out to sources like Larry Fine because they don't have information to update with - just like Bechstein haven't updated their own official website on sourcing statements since 2016, as documented on archive.org?

These are factual questions with factual answers.

Last edited by Windjammer; 02/05/21 02:33 PM.

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Originally Posted by Windjammer
3. Did Bechstein's executives - contrast: 2nd year sales person earning a living off sales commission

Who's the 2nd year sales person?

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Originally Posted by johnstaf
Originally Posted by Windjammer
3. Did Bechstein's executives - contrast: 2nd year sales person earning a living off sales commission

Who's the 2nd year sales person?
Da Stoascheißerkoarl! (Austrian insider joke)


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Originally Posted by Skjalg
Originally Posted by master88er
While it has little to do with the resultant product, there are only two German manufacturers that have principal majority ownership by the founding family: Blüthner and Steingraeber.

According to Piano Buyer
https://www.pianobuyer.com/brand/forster-august/
Quote
After the reunification of Germany and privatization, Wolfgang and his family once again owned their company. August Förster GmbH is now managed in the fifth generation by Wolfgang’s daughter, Annekatrin Förster.

My impression was that August Förster is family owned.

My sincerest and deepest apology. This was a stupid over-sight on my part and you are correct, August Förster would be the third company still in the hands of the founding family.


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FORMER/Semi-Retired: USA Rep.for C.Bechstein & Sauter; Founder/owner R. KASSMAN Piano; Consultant - GUANGZHOU Pearl River Piano Co.

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Fraulein Gretel,

As I stated in my first post, the link was merely one example of an independent, outside source performing an examination of a companies source claim. As you may (or may not) know, there are others. As it happens, ZDH has warranted other piano companies as well, and here is a link: Another ZDH warrant

The fact that one stalwart manufacturer got tired of the ongoing shenanigans, and encouraged a reputable agency to develop a certification process, does not diminish its veracity.

But, madame, as others have opined you seem to clearly miss the point: A manufacturer accused of being loosely-goosey with the truth can resolve the issue by “opening up the doors and windows, rather than pulling the blinds and locking the gate.”

In reality, those of us who have traveled to piano factories far and wide, and have seen production of product and components in one location alleged to be produced in another, have learned to believe what we see. Trade shows and pre-arranged group factory tours prove little, if anything.


Russell I. Kassman
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Originally Posted by master88er
But, madame, as others have opined you seem to clearly miss the point: A manufacturer accused of being loosely-goosey with the truth can resolve the issue by “opening up the doors and windows, rather than pulling the blinds and locking the gate.”

In reality, those of us who have traveled to piano factories far and wide, and have seen production of product and components in one location alleged to be produced in another, have learned to believe what we see. Trade shows and pre-arranged group factory tours prove little, if anything.

Is there any specific point you want to address here or is it just general innuendo towards companies that actually grant you access to their manufacturing sites?

Just asking for a friend.

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Originally Posted by OE1FEU
Originally Posted by master88er
But, madame, as others have opined you seem to clearly miss the point: A manufacturer accused of being loosely-goosey with the truth can resolve the issue by “opening up the doors and windows, rather than pulling the blinds and locking the gate.”

In reality, those of us who have traveled to piano factories far and wide, and have seen production of product and components in one location alleged to be produced in another, have learned to believe what we see. Trade shows and pre-arranged group factory tours prove little, if anything.

Is there any specific point you want to address here or is it just general innuendo towards companies that actually grant you access to their manufacturing sites?

Just asking for a friend.

Another drive-by swing by Team Bechstein.

Can you bill this use of time under outreach activity to the company? "Engaged on social media to help contribute to a positive image of the Bechstein brand."

If so, are we so certain that nothing communicates positive brand image better than avoiding pointed factual questions?

I'm sure the next unproductive ad hominem is in the works, but while you're at it, we're all curious to hear about the things that would do so much to help sell the Bechstein brand. To wit:

1. Did C. Bechstein get rejected by the BVK?
2. What's the percentage of German-sourced timber in C. Bechstein instruments manufactured in Germany?
3. Did C. Bechstein employees reach out to Larry Fine about point 2. in the last 2-3 years?

We're waiting.

Last edited by Windjammer; 02/05/21 10:37 PM.

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Not all of us.

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Originally Posted by Maestro Lennie
Not all of us.

thumb


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Gentlemen, I was using the royal plural.


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Originally Posted by Windjammer
We're waiting.

My guess is - He put You on His ‘Ignore List’


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Originally Posted by Windjammer
Gentlemen, I was using the royal plural.


Oh no, you can’t. Not everyone shares your secret agenda and innuendo.


"Music, rich, full of feeling, not soulless, is like a crystal on which the sun falls and brings forth from it a whole rainbow" - F. Chopin
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