Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Adult Beginners Forum Why are beginners reaching beyond their grasp?

Thanks for this. Love Jarrett and somehow missed the news of what happened to him post-2nd stroke until only recently (dealing with Covid recovery, both my own and my dad's had me in a fog since November). I wish I had seen him when he played at Carnegie a few years back. Oh well. I'm just glad he's still with us. Hoping he can find peace somehow and stays healthy.

Glad you liked it. I also enjoy his Over the Rainbow. That piece is easier than Danny Boy so some may want to try it. Don't worry all the beginners out there your hands won't fall off if you attempt a piece like it. For many with some determination you can get through a piece like this but it could take a long time (months, a year?) but really it's not that difficult if you really want to learn it. For those a more experienced it's not that difficult to sight read through this piece if you like it. When I was teaching myself the piano (past childhood), these were the kinds of pieces I worked on to challenge myself in the early years. A lot more fun than exercises and scales wouldn't you say?

Oh most definitely haha. BTW thanks for the other vid. That's another great one from a great show. That 'Encore' is legendary!

I like a challenge I suppose. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Although both those pieces are magical, I think they're way too difficult for beginners and even many intermediate players. Over the Rainbow is about four pages long, so if it takes someone months or a year to learn it, this would generally be inappropriate from a pedagogical perspective.

Jarret’s transcriptions are around an RCM 9 level. I’ve played his transcription of Shenandoah. I have the sheet music for Over the Rainbow and it’s more demanding than Shenandoah. I think it would be beyond frustrating for beginners to try to play these pieces. He uses frequent harmonic shifts and 10ths in his playing so if you can’t reach a 10th you have to come up with a work around.

Complete beginners I wouldn't have them even try such pieces. They just have to figure their way around the keyboard. Somewhat more advanced beginners I think they could do it. The piece is slow enough and not so note heavy that they can learn the piece if they put their mind into it. From a pedagogical perspective I could see why many teachers would say this piece is unnecessarily challenging but if an advanced beginner were to learn a piece like this it can be the reward that keeps them in this art for a lifetime. I personally think far too many adults who unlike children genuinely want to learn the instrument drop out because they are not seeing results or playing music that inspires them. I can't remember a time in the past 40 years where I saw playing the piano a chore and I think that has a lot to do with the fact that I learned almost exclusively by just playing music that inspired me or challenged me. That drove my practice, not testing, a critical teacher, or other external factors. For intermediate pianists this piece should not be difficult to play. To truly master, well that is a whole other story, but who ever really masters a piece? Martha Argerich used to say how she never felt like she mastered a piece that there's always another level on which to improve upon.

That is true, there is a 10th in there and I don't have a problem playing those but some even advanced players have trouble playing 10ths. So only attempt if you are a beginner or intermediate with fairly long fingers. I sight read through the piece, I think that piece should be attainable for intermediates and some advanced beginners IMO but yeah they would have to put the work in. Frustration is just a word for those who don't have patience. (I like that, maybe I'll coin the phrase.)

I think it would be the lack of technical skills rather than patience to cause frustration to a beginner or intermediate level pianist attempting pieces at this level.

I'll give you it's a stretch piece for a beginner pianist but I don't see why an intermediate would not be able to tackle this piece at tempo at which it is played. Other than the 10th's where would they have a problem? The challenge in this piece is in the interpretation, proper tone production, and voicing imo to do this piece justice, but looking over the score I don't see any technical difficulties for an intermediate. I would say learn it to work on those technical challenges. This is a beautiful piece that any intermediate should be able to learn. To write something like this, well that's a whole other story.

Over the Rainbow

Jethro, I just got a security warning when I clicked on your link, with multiple popups and controls were disabled for a few seconds until I pressed Esc.

I think we have very different definitions of "advanced beginner". It's also possible that if an advanced beginner tried one of these transcriptions they'd get so frustrated that it would turn them off to piano. If Jarrett's Shenandoah is really a grade 9 piece as one poster said, then even that piece seems very inappropriate for what I think most would call an advanced beginner. And Shenandoah is easier than Danny Boy.

Well that's entirely possible. You have to understand the perspective where I'm coming from. I didn't even know that child, adult or otherwise that one could even be tested on their piano abilities. I had never heard of RCM or ABRSM until maybe 3 years ago. I've been a member here since 2007 but stuck to the piano forum talking about pianos. So the idea of levels and beginner, intermediate, advanced is kind of foreign to me. I thought to learn the piano you just went to an old lady's house and she taught you piano and perhaps played in a few recitals. If you were good enough you auditioned at a University.

Because I was mostly self taught until I took 2 or years of lessons at a conservatory in my twenties I had no limits on what pieces I got to play. I just played whatever I wanted to and a piece like this wouldn't be one I would shy away from. I would just work on it until I got it. This would be I would say entering in my "intermediate" stages of learning? I think it might have been a good thing that nobody was telling me what I should play and what I shouldn't play. This was in the 80's so no internet existed at that time.

I've been sharing my experiences over the past year because interacting with you guys I get a sense of how people nowadays are learning the piano- with method books, RCM syllabus etc.. and I have a feeling that some are struggling more than they should or not feeling like they progressing as fast as they want. Well, I'm just offering my perspective. Yes I see myself as a beginner still because I want to learn what you guys are learning and I have a long way to go. I'm just saying perhaps playing more music and challenging yourself with progressively more challenging pieces such this might just be the way to go. Perhaps you are not challenging yourself enough. I never felt frustrated in this journey in fact it was/is a whole lot of fun. It's not for everyone. I get that.

Hmm I don't know why its doing that, it seems to work fine on my end.

Jethro, Why don’t you record your version of Keith Jarrett’s Over the Rainbow and post it here. Then you can tell us what the challenges were, if any.

You know PianogrlNW there are reasons why I don’t upload videos of my playing. At least not yet and my reasons why have been explained already in this thread. I could have posted or joined the online recitals but for me my music is something very personal and to bring peace and some joy to my life. I built a medical practice and work 12 hour days and I have tons of stress in my daily life. What little I can do with the piano and with what little time I have to do it gives me solace.

There are people who are genuine in what they post. I would like to think I am one of them. I feel my musical journey is just beginning in latter part of my life. I accept that I have a lot to learn and I’m trying to learn a lot from you guys. But I have a musical experience that I think is somewhat different than others and I want to share it with other adult learners who may be struggling or are frustrated with their progress and at times I feel their frustration. If I have a different perspective to offer I wanted to share to to maybe help or to show that there could possibly be another way. It doesn’t hurt to try does it? Not all of us were fortunate to have proper instruction when we were younger.

I share my music with my family and my music teachers who are qualified and caring enough to judge my progress. The one thing I have learned is that music snobbery doesn’t just come from those who profess to know so much but as the OP has demonstrated even from those who know so little.

Also PianogrlNW if I misunderstood the intent of your post my apologies in advance. Sometimes I just get tired of some of the nonsense I read.

Wow, that is really good. My attempts at that were really pathetic and I came to realize I was just punishing myself. (Jethro’s Moonlight).

I’ll try to return to it again down the road.

The OP should realize the stories of people with autism who demonstrate extraordinary abilities at piano. People have brain injuries and suddenly play piano like a classically trained pianist.

I can’t remember the guy’s name but there was a guy with no piano experience but one day he was looking at a piano and had an epiphany, he suddenly “knew” how to play piano and and began playing expertly. No head injury, no autism... just an epiphany. He gives concerts in his spare time.

It all says, (to me at least), that everyone comes with their own inborn potentials. We don’t all start at the same place. So each person has to find their way.

I dislike the somewhat elitist attitude of telling people what not to play. Yes, there is such a thing as attempting something too difficult, but there is also, to put it politely, chickening out at the challenge and making up excuses. And the latter is more common and easily disguised as fake humility imo. I can't help but cringe when people proudly announce that they will never go past grade 3, and take it one step at a time. And it's even worse when others support such a fatalistic attitude.

Also, I'm not quite sure what beginner means anymore. I have often been called a beginner on this forum several times, but I certainly don't think of myself as one.

It's surprising how similar our experiences are. There were no pianists in my circle, or people who even remotely played the piano. It was liberating, and I never really thought about how easy or difficult pieces were, but as you mention, just playing whatever I liked, and what seemed reasonable to attempt. I think there is an aspect of comparison and competition which stifles learning. Your intuitive assessment of how this piece is "intermediate" is also something I can relate to, as that is how I would think of pieces as well.