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I suppose that I shouldn’t mention tuning pin bushings, maybe they just keep the dirt out of the hole or soak up that CA before it gets to the target. Forget I mentioned it.

“The merry go round broke down” - the loony tuned song.


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Originally Posted by Ed McMorrow, RPT
The whole process of boring the hole. Stringing the piano. And tuning all conspire to make the hole take on a tapered size from top to bottom.
I think that is an excellent way to put it. There are so many things that together conspire to have the hole take on a tapered shape. For those of us that tap the pins and use all three lengths of tuning pins in the piano, this progression of short, medium, then longer pins also work towards the conspiracy of conical/tapered holes.

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Has anyone noticed that for every conversation that piano411 enters, he sucks all the oxygen out of the room, and fills it with himself? Then it is all about him, all the time. Whatever merit his arguments may have, they are overshadowed by his desperate need to be right all the time, and the toxicity that ultimately accompanies his efforts.

Whatever direction a conversation may have had prior to his entry, it is always redirected and taken over by him. If he can't win the argument by merit, he beats you down with incessant repetition and makes you want to leave.

There is a scene in the film "Farenheit 451" where the film transitions to a TV channel where a man is holding a baseball bat over a prone figure and ploddingly striking it over and over and over again. This is repeated every time it comes back to this channel. It is devoid of human feeling and never changes.

Rather than bringing us towards light and understanding, piano411 pulls us towards the darkness. There is nothing for us to gain here, as we can never convince him of anything, that simply cannot be allowed in his world view.

This is why I no longer participate in any dialog with him.


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Originally Posted by WilliamTruitt
This is why I no longer participate in any dialog with him.
Yet, here you are--in a thread that I started about the tuning pin twist--talking about me. Why? Why take the time away from the topic and point it directly at a user? In all fairness, you've decided to make it about me. Sadly, this happens every time someone here doesn't have the data to back up there claims. They make it personal instead.

In any event, what was being talked about is that tuning pin holes are tapered, whether we want them to be or not. Whether we do it intentionally or not, that is the end result. It is/was the traditional method of prepping the tuning pin holes prior to installing tuning pins. Again, it is not a new concept, it is part of the old-world piano making tradition. Roughing up and refining the tuning pin holes using a tapered round file is how it is done. If you don't want to do it, that is fine, the holes will get there on their own. I've done it both ways, so I have an opinion on both approaches. In fact, I have an opinion on everything that I have tried. And, I am constantly refining my technique every day.

So, your comment that you can never convince men of anything isn't true in the slightest. What you can't convince me of is about things and processes that I have already eliminated from my repertoire based on sound and logical reasoning.

There are six ways to Sunday showing and demonstrating that piano tuning pin holes are not cylindrical. It is not repetition to show, in all the different ways, that this can be demonstrated or observed.

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@piano411: For what it's worth, participating in this conversation has been exhausting for me as well. I'm sure you're not deliberately trying to make people's heads explode, but I've felt some of the frustration that others have expressed. I have a hard time putting my finger on precisely what is bugging me, but I think it has something to do with the imperious way you interact with others and an apparent refusal to accept things beyond your own experience. I was going to just quietly disengage, but since it came up again I figured I'd say something.


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I think this forum is safer now.

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Good riddance..... once again.


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Banned again. Permanently perhaps? I guess the "time out" didn't work.

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Folks, do not count 411's actions as just unsocial rudeness. They are antisocial, sociopathic actions. To demand civility in such a situation is like bringing a knife to a gun fight, only worse, because such an individual will use your own morals against you. They will feign indignation over being offended when you call them out for their unsocial behavior, when "all" the were doing was <blah, blah, blah> and so "you "bad" guys are blaming me, the victim!" (I could rule the World if people would just stop offending me. Bwhahahaha!) Which brings up a thorny question: Isn't being intolerant of intolerance, itself being intolerant?

Anyhoo, the Moderators here are really great folks. They've firmly but politely sat me down a few times when I've gone too far. I do not know what the final straw in 411's being banned this time was. I do know what it was last time, but since the Moderators decided to delete that exchange, I will not mention what it was. I do believe I know how to bring such a situation to a quicker conclusion, whether 411 returns or whether another Troll pops up. It is not by "calling him out" on his behavior. That only let's him know where the line is drawn and indicates where our own morals can be used against us. Rather it is just keep "playing the ball, not the man." Point out the faults in the "logic" of his posts without attributing any "unfairness" to how they are posted. Stick with What, not Who, which is a good idea anyway. This should both frustrated him and embolden him to cross the Moderator's line all the quicker, resulting in being banned, hopefully permanently if it should be 411 again.

You may think that this will forewarn him in case this is just his second strike, before permanent banning. I don't think so, and understanding why can lead us to compassion. He just doesn't have his own moral compass. He can only pick up a moral direction from others. He may not even understand what friendship is. The compassionate thing is to not allow him opportunities to hurt others for his own benefit.


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Jeff,

I believe you are largely correct and so I agree with you. I would add only that I believe (simply by observing the global symptom set) that he suffers from a mental/emotional condition that prevents him from even recognizing "the line" between appropriate and inappropriate behavior. I am not excusing him in any way, since with determined effort one can still learn and apply proper behavioral guidelines (but it requires a tutor and none of us are in that position nor have that responsibility). It also requires a degree of humility.

In a certain way I feel sorry for him in that he clearly grasps the field of piano technology (and is doubtlessly very good in his field), but lacks the social and communication skills to effectively interact with others in a productive way. Thus, his "troll-like" behavior (which I find highly offensuve) is (I think) a result of his passion for what he thinks is the "correct" way of doing things. But his "tunnel vision" on this prevents him from accepting others' point of view.

I will repeat that I am NOT justifying, excusing, or minimizing his behavior. In fact I came VERY close to quitting entirely myself out of frustration. I felt great relief when he was gone the first time, only to be stunned when he was back. However, true to my personal assessment I figured that, given a little time, he would again manifest the pattern for which he became noted. Didn't take terribly long either.

I could be wrong in my diagnosis, but I am certainly glad to no longer have to deal with it. If he attempts to re-enter under a different screen name I think we will recognize it in short order. I also believe he was using multiple screen personas (but this is just a guess and I can't prove it). Thanks to the moderator(s) for taking appropriate action.

Peter Grey Piano Doctor


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I found zero dialogue, only endless dichotomy.


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I was checking back every couple days to see when Bradley would be banned again. What a relief he's gone now.

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Quote
In fact I came VERY close to quitting entirely myself out of frustration.

I did in fact quit, and cancelled my Gold subscription. Now that things are safer, I will re-start it (it still showed, as it had a while to run).

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Originally Posted by Gene Nelson
I found zero dialogue, only endless dichotomy.

I am not a psychologist, so I can't comment on the mental compass of the poster. However, being a tech, my impression was that 411 was not a tech with practical experience, but a poseur. An intelligent person can read enough about anything on the net these days, and it appeared to me that 411 was trying to establish himself as the ultimate tech by telling us of the most esoteric techniques, the nuances visible to only the most discerning, etc. while not actually offering anything beyond his own assurance that his way was the way of the masters. All the defining characteristics are of a dilettante amusing themselves as a hoax.
Regards,

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Originally Posted by Ed Foote
Originally Posted by Gene Nelson
I found zero dialogue, only endless dichotomy.

I am not a psychologist, so I can't comment on the mental compass of the poster. However, being a tech, my impression was that 411 was not a tech with practical experience, but a poseur. An intelligent person can read enough about anything on the net these days, and it appeared to me that 411 was trying to establish himself as the ultimate tech by telling us of the most esoteric techniques, the nuances visible to only the most discerning, etc. while not actually offering anything beyond his own assurance that his way was the way of the masters. All the defining characteristics are of a dilettante amusing themselves as a hoax.
Regards,


Perhaps you are right Ed, the whole thing is bizarre. What I perceived was someone that was knowledgeable, but just enjoyed upsetting the apple cart. In the middle of a discussion he would throw in something ridiculous, not related to the discussion, suggesting that it was related, and then diving into an argument with someone that took the bait by contesting it.


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Phew, phew and phew!
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Agreed Ed
And what’s the best treatment for such a thing?
Getting your hands dirty, put that information to work, like repin and rebush an entire action, hang a set of upright hammers, chase down squeaks and rattles, regulate dampers/hammer string mating on an old Steinway upright, Work on an old birdcage that’s been neglected for five decades, feel and deal with pin twist while learning aural tuning and there’s more - all great mind medicine.

Last edited by Gene Nelson; 02/01/21 04:27 PM.

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Originally Posted by Gene Nelson
Agreed
And what’s the best treatment for such a thing?
Getting your hands dirty, put that information to work, - all great mind medicine.

Well, first, I have to go back and check where all the wires are in the becket holes of the last 26 pianos I strung....

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Originally Posted by Ed Foote
Originally Posted by Gene Nelson
Agreed
And what’s the best treatment for such a thing?
Getting your hands dirty, put that information to work, - all great mind medicine.

Well, first, I have to go back and check where all the wires are in the becket holes of the last 26 pianos I strung....
Best check the shape of the hole first...


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Shudder......

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