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Hello. I am new here (login approved just a few seconds ago), but I really need your help. I was trying to find information for the last few days about many different piano brands, but I am still pretty lost. Here is may case:

My wife is a brilliant person and I am eager to buy her new piano for her 30. We just moved to a new house, we have a space for an upright piano and a budget around 4500 € max. She knows about this present, because I am no expert, so this is more like a help for both of us. She was mostly playing on the electronic pianos and very old Petrof at her school few years back, but she likes to play and want to jump in with something that will stay with our family for a few decades. We are really trying to find the best with this limited budget.

I was trying to find a brand new piano, but a lot of them are currently out of stock in my country (especially Yamaha B1 with the price just right for us and I also learned that the new Yamahas aren't really made in Japan or something). So we decided to start looking for an older pianos and we found some. I would really appreciate your help choosing the right one. I know it's hard for you to be 100% sure without touching the piano or seeing by your own eyes, but maybe some advice on a brand or mechanics inside would be really amazing.

These are our current options:

1. Rieger Kloss 123 by C. Bechstein (mechanics by Detoa and Renner). The price is 4000 €. You can see and hear it here: https://klavire.eu/index.php/sk/pianina-sk/0-all?cm=0&pid=15

If you scroll down on this website you can find information in english and a video of an actual sound of this piano.

2. Hohner 120. Not so much info about this one. Even my wife was uncertain about this brand. The price is 3800 €. Same website, but without ENG transations: https://klavire.eu/index.php/sk/pianina-sk/0-all?cm=0&pid=55

3. Yamaha - Eterna ER30 121. The price is 4500 €. You can find it here: https://klavire.eu/index.php/sk/pianina-sk/0-all?cm=0&pid=14

4. Kawai K-18 EL from 2003. The price is 3800 €. You can find it here: https://klavire.eu/index.php/sk/pianina-sk/0-all?cm=0&pid=23

It's the only shop with used pianos in my country that was talking to me for almost hour, talking about different things and options, willing to lower the price and so on. Because the COVID restrictions in my country, I cannot visit the shop to try the piano (or my wife to be clear), so there is only an option to look at the picture, hear the sound on the video and ask for your help.

My wife spent the whole night deciding and she really likes Rieger Kloss, but she wasn't sure if the brand is ok (the internet is pretty chaotic for this one as I learned that it's actually a Petrof in the past and Bohemia in the US).

Thanks in advance for your help. Oh, there is also one piano for 1800 €. It's just a regular sale on the internet and it is Yamaha M108, but I am waiting for info and photo for this one.

Sorry for my English and any other not-so-piano mistakes.

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In 2006 a poster here said:
'The Eterna was a very low end piano sold by Yamaha. For the price offered, $ 2800.00 (sold for about 2400.00 new in Vancouver at the time)it is far too high a price for the options that are out there today.'

I went to the site you linked and there was a translated statement at the bottom of the piano's description that made me think that this particular piano is not new.
'The tool is after a complete professional service, the condition of an almost new tool'
Ian


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None of the pianos I have mentioned are new. All of them are just refined to "be like new" by a professional.

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Most new Yamahas are still made in Japan. Some of the lower priced Yamaha uprights and grands are made in Indonesia to Yamaha specifications. Buying used allows you and your wife to buy a better piano at a lower price than new but it needs to be inspected by a piano technician you trust. You don’t mention where you’re located so what’s readily available might be different. I would suggest your wife try a good used Yamaha U1 and U3 and a Kawai K200 and K300. Those are popular studio uprights and can last many years. Also, if your wife wants to trade up later those models are easier to resell or trade in. Best Wishes on your search.


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I hate to say this, but can you wait until you can actually visit the shop? I do not recommend buying a used piano without playing it first, and also having it inspected by an independent piano technician.

Have you asked the dealer what their return policies are? Would they be willing to put the piano in your home and then allow you to return it if it didn't meet your wife's needs?

Alternatively, if you can afford a new Yamaha upright, you might wait for that to become available. I don't think you need to worry about the Yamaha not being made in Japan, they are still very good and reliable instruments.


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I certainly can wait. So, it's better to buy a brand new Yamaha U1/U3 or Kawai K200/K300 than any of the pianos I have listed? The U series is above our budget, so the more realistic is Kawai. What about Yamaha B series? Is it worth it?

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I apologise I should have read your post more carefully. I looked at all the photographs of the Rieger Kloss 123 and to me it is has the best specification. The audio has been recorded far too loud and much too fancy playing, but it sounded good to me and is in tune. The Renner hammers are top quality and have been reshaped and in good condition. It has a silencing rail for quiet playing.
A good find in my opinion.
Ian


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Originally Posted by Rennurten
I certainly can wait. So, it's better to buy a brand new Yamaha U1/U3 or Kawai K200/K300 than any of the pianos I have listed? The U series is above our budget, so the more realistic is Kawai. What about Yamaha B series? Is it worth it?
New is generally better but also more expensive than used. But new Yamahas or Kawais may not be in your budget.

As a previous poster said, it's usually much better to try out a piano in person and very important to have it inspected by a tech if the piano is used. This applies even if the used piano is sold by a dealer and has a warranty because it can be a hassle to get involved with a warranty issue So if you can wait until piano stores are open by appointment it makes more sense to do that. It's hard to judge a piano's tone on the internet and impossible to judge it's touch.

To help deal with all the confusion about buying a piano, I recommend reading as many articles that apply to your situation in the Acoustic and Digital Piano Buyer. A free link to this bible about buying a piano is on the top left side of this page.

Last edited by pianoloverus; 01/28/21 09:37 AM.
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Originally Posted by Rennurten
I certainly can wait. So, it's better to buy a brand new Yamaha U1/U3 or Kawai K200/K300 than any of the pianos I have listed? The U series is above our budget, so the more realistic is Kawai. What about Yamaha B series? Is it worth it?

No, I meant find a used Yamaha U1, U3, Kawai K200 or K300. Those are extremely popular uprights so they should be easier to find used. Again I don’t know your location so what’s available might be very different. Yamaha b series are nice new or used but the U series is better. I’m not at all familiar with the models you listed so I can’t make any recommendations.

And of course your wife has to love it and really enjoy playing it and hearing it. That’s really the most important thing.

Last edited by j&j; 01/28/21 09:51 AM.

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Kawai K200 is the only one, that we can afford right now. Other than Yamaha B1 or B2. The U series is way above our limit. Now I am pretty lost, if we should wait and save more money or maybe be more realistic and just order a brand new Yamaha B1/B2 or Kawai K200 (and wait to march/april because it's nowhere in stock). We are pretty confident, that we are not going to buy a digital piano at any cost. It's just an instrument without a soul for us, but maybe we are overreacting.

Last edited by Rennurten; 01/28/21 09:54 AM.
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Consider Feurich 122

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Maybe I’m just confused. The models I listed would be nice to find used, and then they could be in your price range. If you’re buying new then the b series or the K200 would be a great choice. Whichever your wife likes better.


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Originally Posted by j&j
Maybe I’m just confused. The models I listed would be nice to find used, and then they could be in your price range. If you’re buying new then the b series or the K200 would be a great choice. Whichever your wife likes better.

Then we should order K200 or B1 (others are too pricey for us) and wait. The only B1 in my country (Slovakia BTW, that is the reason why is everything out of stock, we are really small country) is in white color and we are not ok with white, I guess.

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I meant that if you are buying a used piano, you should not buy one until you can first play the pianos in person and have them evaluated by an independent piano technician.

But if you are able to buy a new piano, and it's a Yamaha or a Kawai, it might be ok to buy one without playing it first.

This is just my opinion of course....

It's really hard to predict how long the lockdown (or other covid restrictions) will last. But if at all possible, it will be easier to make a decision on what to buy if you can wait until your wife can go to the shop and play some pianos in person.

Whatever you decide to do, good luck!


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Gosh, 4000 Euro is a lot to spend on something sight unseen, especially a piano that you want to be in the family for many years! A piano is such a personal thing and I think very much worth the wait to go play in person. Once your wife is able to do so it will likely be apparent which pianos she likes more than others. Plus, every piano can be different, even across the same make and model.

I just helped a friend buy a 2 year old Kawai 506N and the new ones were about your budget range. If you still want to buy during covid, I think it's a very nice piano to consider. Is this model not in stock where you are?

If you can wait, that would be the best option by far. Maybe when you can shop for pianos in person again, you could increase your budget as well smile


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Originally Posted by Beemer
I apologise I should have read your post more carefully. I looked at all the photographs of the Rieger Kloss 123 and to me it is has the best specification. The audio has been recorded far too loud and much too fancy playing, but it sounded good to me and is in tune. The Renner hammers are top quality and have been reshaped and in good condition. It has a silencing rail for quiet playing.
A good find in my opinion.
Ian

Concerning the Rieger Kloss action. Here is a link form a poster here you might find interesting:
http://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthre...action-vs-renner-action.html#Post1295778
Ian


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I would recommend waiting. None of these four pianos sounds very good, but the Bechstein is the best of the four in my opinion. Still, it sounds ungainly (difficult to control the sound and touch). I would wait for the Yamaha M108. My experience is that I sold Yamaha pianos for three years when I was younger. I have owned a Yamaha M1A and a Yamaha C108 in the past for several months. You should try to keep as many dollars in your pocket as possible during Covid because the future is uncertain, and go for the least expensive one. Later, it's easy to trade the M108 in for something better.

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I have a Kawai K-200 purchased in 2016 and I've really enjoyed it. For how inexpensive it is, it's a great option.

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Originally Posted by Candywoman
I would recommend waiting. None of these four pianos sounds very good, but the Bechstein is the best of the four in my opinion. Still, it sounds ungainly (difficult to control the sound and touch). I would wait for the Yamaha M108. My experience is that I sold Yamaha pianos for three years when I was younger. I have owned a Yamaha M1A and a Yamaha C108 in the past for several months. You should try to keep as many dollars in your pocket as possible during Covid because the future is uncertain, and go for the least expensive one. Later, it's easy to trade the M108 in for something better.
I want to echo these remarks. If you take away anything from this thread, please don't get a Yamaha (below U range), especially not for a loved one.

I'm currently renting a Yamaha b2 (not much longer though, yay!) and it's a deeply miserable experience. I'm glad I got it to scratch the piano itch but I'll celebrate the day it leaves the house and I have a semi-decent instrument. There's no polite way of saying this, but a Yamaha b_ instrument is just a glorified type writer. It's a type writer that gives off sound, but not in a very controlled manner.

What's worse, though you receive a type writer with 88 keys, the only semi-meaningful sound you'll get is from four, maybe five octaves. So you end up paying for the instrument and delivery of a full scale instrument.
But really, what you end up having sit in your living room is basically this:
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Now ask yourself this question. If your wife or special other asks or hopes you to get her a piano, would she be happy with the above? If not, stay away from Yamaha b's.

Last edited by Windjammer; 01/29/21 06:29 PM.

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Rieger-Kloss is a respected manufacturer of pipe organs. The following ratings of piano brands rates the Rieger-Kloss branded pianos highly in general, so if your wife likes the piano, and a piano tech finds it to be in good condition, it likely is a good buy:

http://pianoguide.org/pianoratings.html


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