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#3074146 01/26/21 04:31 AM
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So I am a complete newbie who wants to learn the piano. I have been spending unreasonable amounts of time trying to figure which DP to get, the problem is since I dont have any experience playing piano, I really dont know how judge if a given action is good or not. Below are the options that I am considering:
1. ES110 (tried at a local store):
Good:
- Sounds seems good.
- The action seemed easiest (less resistance)
Bad:
- The keys were a bit "bouncy" after left it seemed bounce bit before settling. No idea if its good or bad but intuition is this probably shouldnt happen (this also happened on es920 the dealership had to a lesser degree though).
- I saw some review which said this action is least like a grand piano. Is this true, would I learn incorrect behaviour if i learnt to play on this?

2. FP30 (tried at a local store):
Good:
- The sound was decent too.
- Action wasnt bouncy.
Bad:
- The action required more effort (was heavier), less natural than es110 to me. Not sure if this is how a grand piano feels or if this is better for learner.

- This seems like a really bad time to pick fp30 since fp30x is around the corner for not too much more but no idea when it will actually be available. Either way seems like the prudent thing would be to wait i.e. postpone this purchase.

3. Korg D1 (only read online reviews):
Good:
- I had read a lot about how amazing the RH3 action be much better than other DPs in same range. Is the action so much better than Es110 and fp30?

Bad:
- Havent tried this one out firsthand so everything is someone else's opinion online
- No speaker, its not the end of the world but definitely an inconvenience.
- Aparently sounds aren't as good.


All these seem to be in the similar ball park price wise. What would you guys recommend to pick amongs the 3.

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I'll keep this simple (others will weigh in so it's not like you won't get a variety of opinions!):

1. You liked the ES110 - thought it sounded good and the action was easy.
2. Don't worry about the "bounce" - it's not an actual problem, altho some folks have decided to freak out about it.
3. Buy the ES110!
4. Play it for a couple of years. Decide then if you want to upgrade.

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Yes, don't worry about the "bounce" : all acoustic grand pianos bounce, it's due to their mechanism design. Then it's a great feature to have bounce, for a more realistic touch experience.

Generally, Korg DPs haven't the best keybed, don't confuse Korg Rh3 with Kawai RhIII.

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I started with a casio px-160. The key action was very light and very bouncy and noisy.
I didn't care and it certainly didn't make me quit piano. Sure down the road I upgraded and I now have the quite heavy and not bouncy at all nwx Yamaha action. Also very silent.

I say if you liked the Kawai, it is a great choice. Certainly a better start than entry level Casio. Nothing against Casio but they ain't Kawai.

Oh and the Kawai is still a fully weighed action. I don't believe you would learn incorrectly. The casio action was fully weighed. I got a teacher a year into my learning process and one thing he was very impressed about my self learning was actually my technique. He had nothing to correct from the time I spent with the technique I developed while playing on the entry level Casio.

Last edited by mareg; 01/26/21 08:22 AM.

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I really like my Korg RH3 keybed: very comfortable to play, not too heavy, not too light, smooth & even. No clicks, no odd loud keys, not thumpy. Responds well to my level of play (beginner). Maybe an advanced player might prefer something more nuanced, though at this stage not sure what that would entail. If I had to get another digital piano, Korg would get my first look.

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Korg D1 is good for one thing rock , pop . Its still good to learn on , i have one i use it for playing chords mostly in a band but for solo piano there is better .

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Originally Posted by doudou
Yes, don't worry about the "bounce" : all acoustic grand pianos bounce, it's due to their mechanism design. Then it's a great feature to have bounce, for a more realistic touch experience.
I experience little to no bounce on the acoutics I play, certainly nothing like what some of the DPs I've played have had. But while it can be an irritant on some DPs, it is not an obstacle to learning to play.

Originally Posted by pd112
The action required more effort (was heavier), less natural than es110 to me. Not sure if this is how a grand piano feels
Grand pianos vary a lot. Some can be heavy feeling. Though in my experience, most of them feel lighter than many DPs do. This is complicated by the fact that people aren't always talking about the same thing when they talk about an action feeling "heavy" -- it can refer to taking more effort to press the key down, or the speed of the return, or how much pressure is exterted back against the fingers while holding/lifting the key.

Originally Posted by pd112
I had read a lot about how amazing the RH3 action be much better than other DPs in same range. Is the action so much better than Es110 and fp30?
I liked the RH3 action in the SV1; I do not like it on the Kronos 73/88, it feels heavier. I don't know why. I haven't tried it on the D1.

Bottom line to me is that no low cost action feels especially like a grand piano, but all of these are perfectly adequate for learning to play.

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As an ES110 owner for 4 years (and now ES920), the action is a bit bouncy yeah but when you're playing it's not noticeable unless you put your head at the level of the keys while playing.

I tried the FP30, a few Yamahas, and the Korg D1. They're all about the same quality level, so if you like the ES110 action go with it. It's lighter on average but it's not going to make you learn "wrong."

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Originally Posted by pwl
I'll keep this simple (others will weigh in so it's not like you won't get a variety of opinions!):

1. You liked the ES110 - thought it sounded good and the action was easy.
2. Don't worry about the "bounce" - it's not an actual problem, altho some folks have decided to freak out about it.
3. Buy the ES110!
4. Play it for a couple of years. Decide then if you want to upgrade.

Good Advice.

Just do it.


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Originally Posted by doudou
Yes, don't worry about the "bounce" : all acoustic grand pianos bounce, it's due to their mechanism design. Then it's a great feature to have bounce, for a more realistic touch experience.

Generally, Korg DPs haven't the best keybed, don't confuse Korg Rh3 with Kawai RhIII.

Regarding the Korg D1 and Korg RH3 action, I think some of the appeal may be that it's the same action as Korg puts in their much more expensive DP's (e.g., Korg SV1, SV2). In fact, it's the best keybed Korg makes. Now maybe it's not that great, but seems like it must at least be a decent action. I'm not expecting world-beating action for $700. But if it's decent enough action for a $2k SV2, then it's probably among the better available in the sub $1k options.

However, I agree with those who say if he liked it, go with the ES110. Any of them will work, depending on personal preferences. And, honestly, I think a big part of it is just being "accepting", psychologically, of the piano you're playing on. Certainly that seems to me true for beginners.

I have an FP-10, which generally feels good but which I sometimes think feels too heavy and sluggish. I've played a few others Casio S-1000, Yamaha P-125, FP-30 (which seems the same), and I don't feel like any of those would be an upgrade. I don't even necessarily want an "upgrade", just sometimes wish it had a keybed that feels a little lighter/faster. Some of the heaviness can be relieved with a different touch/velocity curve, but not all.

In fact, I've been playing a bit on a $99 synth keyboard. It has its limitations, but for a beginner with the right mindset, I think it would work fine, even for learning piano. It's definitely lighter and faster than the FP-10 action.
I kind of like going back and forth between them, focusing on different things. There's a lot more to learning piano than just hyper-expressive touch. (I remember a scene in old movie "Running on Empty" where River Phoenix, playing a gifted young pianist, is practicing on what is literally a board -- that is, a piece of wood -- on which piano keys were painted. Obviously not optimal. But he was a practicing concert pianist. Apparently those boards used to be a thing . . . maybe someone here knows about that.)

Anyway, if I do actually upgrade from FP-10 it will probably be to something more expensive than ES110 or Korg D1. Just wanted to offer a few thoughts.

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Perhaps there's some misunderstanding about "bounce".
I think that the degree of bounce matters. And the force of the bounce matters more.

I always found that the Yamaha GHS-derived keyboards had a forceful bounce (rebound), likely because of the leaf spring in the mechanism.
Whereas a proper grand piano has a less forceful rebound.

I must use caution when speaking in such generalities ... but I think it characterizes the point.
Originally Posted by anotherscott
Originally Posted by doudou
Yes, don't worry about the "bounce" : all acoustic grand pianos bounce, it's due to their mechanism design. Then it's a great feature to have bounce, for a more realistic touch experience.
I experience little to no bounce on the acoutics I play, certainly nothing like what some of the DPs I've played have had. But while it can be an irritant on some DPs, it is not an obstacle to learning to play.

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Bounce means that, when you release a key, it comes all the way up, but then bounces back down a little and then comes back up before finally resting.

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Originally Posted by anotherscott
Bounce means that, when you release a key, it comes all the way up, but then bounces back down a little and then comes back up before finally resting.

That is also my definition of bouncing. And it is often accompanied by a very audibly sound when it hits the upper limits before bouncing back down.


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The main thing is to start with a weighted keyboard. Also check how comfortably you can play near the fallboard, and check the white key/ black key balance. I started on an unweighted 61 key keyboard. The keys may have been light & easy to press, but bottoming out on the keybed transmitted a lot of impact to my hands/wrists/elbows. Having to press harder near the fallboard didn't help things, & not getting black/white keys to sound simultaneously was frustrating. After two months, I was hurting. Being 65 means you don't adjust to new physical demands like you use to (even if one is a long time cyclist & kettlebell enthusiast).

Switching to a weighted keyboard helped enormously. Mine feels "cushioned," is the best I can describe it -- not hitting bedrock on every note. It is less stressful to play near the fallboard too. Much, much easier on my hands. All my issues cleared up except for occasional soreness at the base of my thumbs, but that existed before taking up piano.

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Any of those will do.
And time spent thinking about it is time when you don't have a piano to start learning on, and delaying your entry into the piano world.

You don't have the skill/experience required to judge detailed points for yourself, so don't waste your time.And you don't know what features you will like or want further down the line.

None of those you mention is a bad keyboard for the price.
If you like one and can afford it, just buy it and get on with it. smile


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You must be new here Lillith. The point of the forum is to argue endlessly over minor details, not give practical advice and spend time learning to play piano.

Can someone please break out the 1g weights to measure the force of every key of the ES100 and rent a 10,000 FPS high speed camera to analyse this “bounce” for my physics white paper.

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Originally Posted by Lillith
Any of those will do.
And time spent thinking about it is time when you don't have a piano to start learning on, and delaying your entry into the piano world.

You don't have the skill/experience required to judge detailed points for yourself, so don't waste your time.And you don't know what features you will like or want further down the line.

None of those you mention is a bad keyboard for the price.
If you like one and can afford it, just buy it and get on with it. smile

This is fair, basically the premise was I dont really know what i am doing due to lack to practical experience, so I want to make sure I get something that wont need replacing due to demerits in a yr or two since $700 is not a small amount to drop on a DP.

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Here is an interesting video for you from a reputable source :
https://www.merriammusic.com/pianos/digital-pianos/best-digital-pianos-for-beginners/

Based on that video, I believe you're on the right path to choose a great DP for yourself.

Last edited by mareg; 01/26/21 03:36 PM.

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Originally Posted by pd112
So I am a complete newbie who wants to learn the piano. I have been spending unreasonable amounts of time trying to figure which DP to get, the problem is since I dont have any experience playing piano, I really dont know how judge if a given action is good or not.

In your case, I would suggest to stop doing research on beginner DPs and just buy ES110. Spend your time and energy on developing piano skills. Spend 2-3 years playing it and improving your skills. At that point, you will be ready for an upgrade.

Osho


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Originally Posted by pd112
This is fair, basically the premise was I dont really know what i am doing due to lack to practical experience, so I want to make sure I get something that wont need replacing due to demerits in a yr or two since $700 is not a small amount to drop on a DP.

The Kawai should be easy to sell for $400+ in a couple of years, so I don’t think it’s worth worrying about that much (bearing in mind the probable $2000+ you may want to spend on a replacement acoustic or digital). It should definitely be good enough for more than 2 years, even if you practice a lot.

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