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Hi,

KAWAI NV20 : wanted features


_ CPU
latest fast ARM CPU

_ Audio :
optical SPDIF or RCA in/out
Internal Audiocard : USB audio class compliant devices (No drivers needed on OSX or WIN10)
DAC : AK4499
ADC : AK5572EN
Balanced audio with groudloop protection
Bluetooth 5.0

Keyboard/action :

_ Same as NV10 : Millenium III, but regulated like a Grand / Real Damper / Pedal
_ Optical sensor (under key) for Note OFF release with release velocity (not in NV10.... but in Y. N1X....)
-> Key-off Effect and real Undamped String Resonance, String Resonance

Design :
_ look of N3X, with authentic wooden soundboard

Audio :

Devialet Audio with 27Hz (push push) or KEF new SUB, and powerfull multi speaker

Another ideas ? smile

Regards,

O

Last edited by owfrappier; 01/25/21 02:48 AM.

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Well, I've not played the NV10 so can't really comment, but that's a fairly techy list, and its not really clear how that's going to make it a better musical instrument?

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Exactly.
Originally Posted by spanishbuddha
... that's a fairly techy list, and its not really clear how that's going to make it a better musical instrument?
I like the NV10 as it is. But if I wanted more ... my list would include capabilities, not specifications.

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It makes no sense. Once upon a time there was a similar topic where users expressed wishes for the successor of the MP11. MP11SE came out, and not a single wish was implemented. After that, there were similar cases, after which I was finally convinced that making such wishes is a waste of time.

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I’m curious as to when we agreed on it being the ‘NV-20’? Was there a memo I didn’t get?

For all we know, it could be called the NV-11, or 12, or.....you get the point.

So why did we settle on 20?

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Originally Posted by Pete14
For all we know, it could be called the NV-11, or 12, or.....you get the point.

So why did we settle on 20?

Kawai James has hinted that we should think in multiples of 5.


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wink

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Originally Posted by spanishbuddha
Well, I've not played the NV10 so can't really comment, but that's a fairly techy list, and its not really clear how that's going to make it a better musical instrument?

+1.

I want none of the things you mentioned. I want them to completely get rid of the bad audio reproduction system - amp + speakers and do a complete redesign on that. Take some clues from AvantGrand N2 (not N1). The current system, IMHO, is like putting $300 cheap tires on a $200000 Lamborghini.

Osho


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Originally Posted by Osho
I want none of the things you mentioned. I want them to completely get rid of the bad audio reproduction system - amp + speakers and do a complete redesign on that. Take some clues from AvantGrand N2 (not N1). The current system, IMHO, is like putting $300 cheap tires on a $200000 Lamborghini.

Osho

I think we're seeing that "more/bigger speakers" doesn't translate into "more realistic" sound. Over the last 9 months, I've been on dozens of Zoom calls with piano teachers and students for recitals/performances, and as horrible the audio quality is (including noise cancelling, cut-outs, and extreme compression), it's painfully and immediately obvious when someone is playing on an acoustic, be it a old upright spinet or a large Steinway grand, versus any kind of digital.

I wonder if there's any research out there about what makes for a real, present acoustic sound, as opposed to something that just sounds like a recording played back through speakers.

I'm honestly not a really picky/sensitive person when it comes to audio, and even an N3X sounds obviously "fake" to me compared to sitting at a real piano, so I'm not sure exactly what can be done to improve the speaker situation....


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I haven't even tried a NV10 and I'm not even a Kawai user anymore and I've already had one too many hybrid instruments, but I would personally purchase a NV1, which would be exactly like the NV10 minus the embedded sounds and speakers. Or in other words, a VPC1 version with the NV10 keyboard/damper action. But that's 100% impossible, so why am I bothering posting that... laugh

Originally Posted by Gombessa
...it's painfully and immediately obvious when someone is playing on an acoustic, be it a old upright spinet or a large Steinway grand, versus any kind of digital.

I wonder if there's any research out there about what makes for a real, present acoustic sound, as opposed to something that just sounds like a recording played back through speakers.

I'm honestly not a really picky/sensitive person when it comes to audio, and even an N3X sounds obviously "fake" to me compared to sitting at a real piano, so I'm not sure exactly what can be done to improve the speaker situation....
That's a 1-million dollar question. I'd love to know the answer to that. My wild guess is pianos radiate sound from their entire soundboard in a pretty unique way. And no, that's not the same as using a transducer attached to a wooden panel to replay regular sounds recorded through external microphones which I find rather silly.

Last edited by CyberGene; 01/25/21 12:52 PM.

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Originally Posted by Gombessa
Originally Posted by Osho
I want none of the things you mentioned. I want them to completely get rid of the bad audio reproduction system - amp + speakers and do a complete redesign on that. Take some clues from AvantGrand N2 (not N1). The current system, IMHO, is like putting $300 cheap tires on a $200000 Lamborghini.

Osho

I think we're seeing that "more/bigger speakers" doesn't translate into "more realistic" sound. Over the last 9 months, I've been on dozens of Zoom calls with piano teachers and students for recitals/performances, and as horrible the audio quality is (including noise cancelling, cut-outs, and extreme compression), it's painfully and immediately obvious when someone is playing on an acoustic, be it a old upright spinet or a large Steinway grand, versus any kind of digital.

I wonder if there's any research out there about what makes for a real, present acoustic sound, as opposed to something that just sounds like a recording played back through speakers.

I'm honestly not a really picky/sensitive person when it comes to audio, and even an N3X sounds obviously "fake" to me compared to sitting at a real piano, so I'm not sure exactly what can be done to improve the speaker situation....

The goal of my suggestion was not to create a "more realistic" sound. It was just to create an acceptable and good DP sound for the price. I have heard better sounding DPs (Yamaha N2, CLP-685, N3X) and IMHO, Kawai is not close to the amp+speaker technology of those products.

Osho


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All this talk makes me wish I had spent more time on speakers when I auditioned the NV10. I spent nearly all of the time on headphones.

But I think my mind is made up. I'm going for the N1X ... when it becomes available again.

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Originally Posted by Osho
The goal of my suggestion was not to create a "more realistic" sound. It was just to create an acceptable and good DP sound for the price. I have heard better sounding DPs (Yamaha N2, CLP-685, N3X) and IMHO, Kawai is not close to the amp+speaker technology of those products.

Interesting. You have a set of high end monitors atop your NV-10, right? Have you piped the native output from the piano to them, and compared against the internal speakers? If so, what do you think are the main differences?

Maybe our priorities are just different, but it would be key for me to "reasonably fooled" into thinking a digital piano output was actually an acoustic. When I auditioned the N2 and N3X, it took about a hot second for me to write them off as "sounding no more convincing than the average DP." From that perspective, I found the NV-10 no worse than either of those, and IMO a bit better than the N1/N1X. So to me, "acceptable DP sound" from speakers is really hard to separate from "realistic acoustic sound."

I think in that respect, the NU1 does a pretty good job, and the combo silent pianos like the transacoustics do the best job.


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Originally Posted by CyberGene
I haven't even tried a NV10 and I'm not even a Kawai user anymore and I've already had one too many hybrid instruments, but I would personally purchase a NV1, which would be exactly like the NV10 minus the embedded sounds and speakers. Or in other words, a VPC1 version with the NV10 keyboard/damper action. But that's 100% impossible, so why am I bothering posting that... laugh

.

Yes, good idea : a NV1 minus the embedded sounds and speakers, plus Release velocity optical, and fake Damper up/down linked/motor with a midi pedal.

smile


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It doesn't have to be a motorized damper link because you will lose the feedback from the keys to the pedal. However if you've seen a Rhodes piano (the real one): they have detaching sustain pedal that's still mechanical smile But even that's not needed! A real piano action will be so heavy that it would be silly to make this in a portable cabinet similar to VPC1. I'm OK with that being a huge non-portable instrument. I simply don't need any sounds (Garritan CFX for me, please!) and speakers.


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I'm thinking that Kawai will rely on the soundboard for a better sound; hopefully for the better.

Feature-wise, *extensibility*. For the price, the NV20[25, 30 ...] should be able to take advantage of new Kawai samples, 3rd party samples and improved modeling algorithms. That means some CPU and memory overhead. For me, that would be more important than anything else. Yes, midi & audio ports can take advantage of these (I will wire in Pianoteq 7 just for 'Steinway B Gentle'), but a top end digital grand should be connected and auto-update for bugs and new compatible features.

Aesthetically, satin black with Nickel hardware.

Did I mention *extensibility*?

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One simpler way to have an extensible model is to put samples in a Flash RAM. Nord proposes and interesting library, then we can choose the favourite pianos (and other instruments).


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yeah and a multi-TB SSD that could be replaced, upgraded and backed up (or everything re-downloaded if necessary). And plenty of CPU to handle future processing loads (features, modeling). And auto-updatable ROM.

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These pianos already have 88 features. They don't need more. Nix the fixtures.

Instead ... they need better sound.

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- I agree with Osho on the speakers: I tried both the NV10 and N3X, and the latter is winning for the sound system. It feels way better, although it won't be enough to fool any pianist.

- Form factor is a matter of taste and space I guess, but I do like the N3X grand look, better than NV10/n1x. Soundboard, why not.

- Although I'm usually a nerd for other tech hardware, I don't really care about CPU power as long as there is a future-proof interface to connect to an external virtual instrument.

But are we going to see any Novus from Kawai this year?


I post piano stuff on my instagram page --> https://www.instagram.com/marchelune smile
I own an old Roland FP-4, looking for a hybrid piano to upgrade to!

Current work: Beethoven's Sonata No. 17 (Der Sturm) Mv. III.
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