2017 was our 20th year online!

Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 3 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments.
Over 100,000 members from around the world.
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

Shop our online store for music lovers
SEARCH
Piano Forums & Piano World
(ad)
Best of Piano Buyer
 Best of Piano Buyer
(ad)
Pianoteq
Steinway Spiro Layering
(ad)
Wessell Nickel & Gross
PianoForAll
Who's Online Now
69 members (Carey, Animisha, ambrozy, 8ude, Anglagard44, chaplincap, 14 invisible), 563 guests, and 533 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
(ad)
Estonia Pianos
Estonia Pianos
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Hop To
Page 1 of 3 1 2 3
Joined: Jan 2021
Posts: 4
M
Junior Member
OP Offline
Junior Member
M
Joined: Jan 2021
Posts: 4
Hi all, I’m a Piano Teacher and I’ve just sold my basic Yamaha acoustic as I need the option of headphones and volume control. I’ve played lots of older low value digital pianos before in schools and found them ok. I wondered if people feel that a hybrid piano such as Kawai NV5 worth the extra £2k than say a CA99? I get it has a more realistic action but it’s still a digital sound in terms of output.


E L
Joined: Jun 2013
Posts: 3,759
P
3000 Post Club Member
Offline
3000 Post Club Member
P
Joined: Jun 2013
Posts: 3,759
You know, as of lately I’ve been asking myself the same question:

Is it worth the extra dough, or should I just save that extra 2/3/4K for a rainy day?

It seems that once you say ‘real action’ the rest is supposed to be crap by comparison, but no one asks is this ‘real action’ a good real action?

I explain: yes, the design follows that of an acoustic piano action, but the similarities end right there because it’s all about procedural/manufacturing quality; such as, quality/curation of wood and related materials; implementation in terms of regulation; and many other aspects related to production that we know nothing about.

I sometimes wonder if the wood that isn’t good enough for their acoustics ends up in their ‘hybrids’.

Yes, the hybrids are good; but are they that much better than their digital counterparts to command such premium prices? I don’t know for sure, but I suspect not!

Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 838
M
mwf Offline
500 Post Club Member
Offline
500 Post Club Member
M
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 838
I find they kind of cheat you with the hybrids, I'm more referring to the grand hybrids as they charge you loads for a grand action and put poor quality speaker systems in them, unless you're paying for the very top end hybrids like N3X or N2 by Yamaha.

Also you have the headache of action regulation that will need to be done after playing for some time.

Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 1,147
1000 Post Club Member
Offline
1000 Post Club Member
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 1,147
IMO, an upright hybrid and a grand action hybrid needs to be separated when comparing. I personally would never pay a premium for an upright hybrid, but my N2 was an easy decision and feel it is superior to any DP with folded action.


AG N2 | ES 110 | REFACE CP | GK MK & MP amps
Joined: Jun 2013
Posts: 3,759
P
3000 Post Club Member
Offline
3000 Post Club Member
P
Joined: Jun 2013
Posts: 3,759
I noticed you did not include an “H” in your introductory clause (IMO); so this implies your opinion is not ‘humble’ and, therefore, it is rude!

You say that your N2’s action is better than any folded action, but a digital piano is not just an action.

What about the sound engine connected to that action, is that not important?

Your N2’s sound engine is now outdated and simply cannot compete with the new RGE2 with VRM, behavioral modeling, and brand new samples.

I would hesitate between the N1X and CLP-775, but it would be a no-brainer choosing between the N2 and the 775.... I would choose the 775 in a heartbeat!

Yes, I know, ‘it’s all about the grand action’, but is it really?

IMHO!

Joined: Dec 2018
Posts: 1,597
U
1000 Post Club Member
Online Content
1000 Post Club Member
U
Joined: Dec 2018
Posts: 1,597
While some non-hybrid actions are quite nice, I would always prefer a real action with real escapement.

If that's worth 2k extra, well that's very personal. Im happy with my vpc-1 imitation grand action, but if someone gave me 10k, yes i'd probably use some of that to get something with a real action.

In my opinion: real grand action > real upright action > imitation grand action

Joined: Sep 2020
Posts: 98
K
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
K
Joined: Sep 2020
Posts: 98
If the goal in researching acoustic grand action is to enable it to repeat fast, doesn't DP action enable ultra fast repetition as long as sensors are placed in right places, and therefore should be designed and marketed as faster repetition than even an acoustic grand? Even the slightest movement of keys can potentially be configured to trigger a repetition without having to retract back to escapement point. But it seems not desired because the strategy is to replicate the slower repetition of APs by only triggering at escapement point, therefore simulating acoustic.

Joined: Feb 2018
Posts: 13
Z
Junior Member
Offline
Junior Member
Z
Joined: Feb 2018
Posts: 13
Originally Posted by Pete14
I would hesitate between the N1X and CLP-775, but it would be a no-brainer choosing between the N2 and the 775.... I would choose the 775 in a heartbeat!

A Fool is a Fool is a Fool.


Yamaha AvantGrand N2. Sennheiser HD 598 SE / Sennheiser IE 80.
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 1,147
1000 Post Club Member
Offline
1000 Post Club Member
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 1,147
Originally Posted by Pete14
I noticed you did not include an “H” in your introductory clause (IMO); so this implies your opinion is not ‘humble’ and, therefore, it is rude!

You say that your N2’s action is better than any folded action, but a digital piano is not just an action.

What about the sound engine connected to that action, is that not important?

Your N2’s sound engine is now outdated and simply cannot compete with the new RGE2 with VRM, behavioral modeling, and brand new samples.

I would hesitate between the N1X and CLP-775, but it would be a no-brainer choosing between the N2 and the 775.... I would choose the 775 in a heartbeat!

Yes, I know, ‘it’s all about the grand action’, but is it really?

IMHO!

You're "H" argument IMHO inflames (or maybe it's sarcasm,) either way it don't harm me but adds to your written history, not mine. <anyway>

I've never had a moment that I said to myself "this sound sucks." I don't get caught up in the narrative that it's old (so am I.) The whole package of the N2 is an enjoyable experience every time.

Hey you have an opinion, go with it. I would try to loose some of that anger I perceive in your response to me and many other posts. Sorry, it's just the way I feel. It don't bother me. In fact it helps me keep my sanity to practice reading people by their written expression.


AG N2 | ES 110 | REFACE CP | GK MK & MP amps
Joined: Sep 2018
Posts: 134
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
Joined: Sep 2018
Posts: 134
Originally Posted by Music_with_emma
Hi all, I’m a Piano Teacher and I’ve just sold my basic Yamaha acoustic as I need the option of headphones and volume control. I’ve played lots of older low value digital pianos before in schools and found them ok. I wondered if people feel that a hybrid piano such as Kawai NV5 worth the extra £2k than say a CA99? I get it has a more realistic action but it’s still a digital sound in terms of output.
I play an acoustic upright, occasionally an acoustic grand and sometimes a good digital piano. I am comfortable with the quality of sound produced by digitals, which after all never need tuning. I am less comfortable with the touch of the keyboard which I can never adjust to in the short periods I have on digital pianos. However I would love to try a hybrid with a grand action as I believe I could be tempted to purchase. There is a Youtube video elsewhere on this forum in which Artur Pizzaro explains why he has bought a Yamaha hybrid for practice. He says it contains the same action as Yamaha C series grands.

Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 13,184
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 13,184
@36251: I might pay a slight premium for an upright action ... or maybe not. After all, the latter will need regulation. Is the improved action worth that much?
Originally Posted by 36251
IMO, an upright hybrid and a grand action hybrid needs to be separated when comparing. I personally would never pay a premium for an upright hybrid, but my N2 was an easy decision and feel it is superior to any DP with folded action.
But I'm definitely willing to pay for a grand action. The NV10 and N3X are really so much better than any digital piano action.

@Pete14: Not everyone knows that you are Piano World's sarcasm-meister. So people might take offense (or take offence, even) ...
Originally Posted by Pete14
I noticed you did not include an “H” in your introductory clause (IMO); so this implies your opinion is not ‘humble’ and, therefore, it is rude!

Joined: Jun 2013
Posts: 3,759
P
3000 Post Club Member
Offline
3000 Post Club Member
P
Joined: Jun 2013
Posts: 3,759
I’m not trying to ‘harm you’, 36251, (don’t be so sensitive); this fight is between me and the N2; you simply happen to own one.

Now, I believe the N2 is enjoyable and perhaps even quantifiably good, but that is not the question posted in this thread; the question is whether the N2 and other hybrids’ “superior quality” makes them worth the extra premium, and as many others believe, I don’t think that is the case; especially with the N2 (hence my beef with the N2; not you).

We keep saying that specs don’t matter, yet they very much do. Of course, I get what Mac says, ‘you still need to play the instrument’, but before one does that, the specs can give a clear picture of what to expect. After all, these ‘instruments’ are part computer/part instrument by definition. Would you be happy with a 1991 Dell computer?

Further elaborating on the matter of specs: when Kurzweil released their ‘triple-strike’ piano sample it won them all the accolades and awards in the world and even earned Kurzweil the nickname ‘The Steinway of digitals’. Fast forward to today, and even an entry-level Casio will sweep the floor with the ‘triple-strike’ in every sense of the word. This is just one example where it’s all about the specs.

The N2 does not have VRM; a technology which I initially mocked, yet now am convinced is a huge step forward (even Kawai is now implementing something like this). A piano’s resonances are as important as the fundamental and, once again, the N2 lacks these modeled resonances amongst other things.

Going back to the initial question, the N2 fits the perfect profile of an instrument that is grossly overpriced -at around 9/10K- considering its technological limitations and other issues like the ‘crescendo’ effect that Yamaha never corrected.

Finally, I am not angry but rather pissed off; there is a difference, you know!

Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 1,474
E
EPW Offline
1000 Post Club Member
Offline
1000 Post Club Member
E
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 1,474
My vote is yes it is if you can afford it. I even loved playing the Yamaha NU1X too. But if I was going to go the Hybrid route I would save up a little extra and get the Grand action. It really was a treat to play the Yamaha N1X.

Pete14 sarcasm? I never would of guessed LOL

@Pete14 want happen to your sabbatical wink


All these years playing and I still consider myself a novice.
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 3,805
S
3000 Post Club Member
Offline
3000 Post Club Member
S
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 3,805
If you have a need to, and difficulty adapting to an acoustic piano action, just like aplha2735 in this thread, then the additional cost is worth it to you. If you just want to make music on a keyboard style instrument, or don't have the difficulty adapting when needed, then no.

Joined: Nov 2016
Posts: 1,403
D
1000 Post Club Member
Offline
1000 Post Club Member
D
Joined: Nov 2016
Posts: 1,403
Originally Posted by Pete14
Yes, the hybrids are good; but are they that much better than their digital counterparts to command such premium prices? I don’t know for sure, but I suspect not!

Of course, it's subjective, but my opinion is, yes!

I've owned what many here consider top tier digital actions, i.e., ES8, MP11SE, etc, and I play (don't own) two acoustic grand pianos fairly regularly. As an adult beginner I found that it was more difficult for me to transition between real acoustic actions and the best digital actions. Owning an N1X solved that problem.

Also, I think a real acoustic action is more conducive for developing nuanced dynamic expression when learning the piano. Folded digital actions and even the long pivot Kawai Grand Feel action doesn't provide (for me) the tactile feedback necessary for developing dynamic expression for someone that wants to also play real acoustic pianos.

Kawai James once said - and I'm sure others have, too - get the piano with the best action you could afford. For me that is the N1X hybrid. I should also mention that the look of the N1X, and the experience of sitting behind it really presents to the senses the illusion of playing a real acoustic piano. I've found that to be very inspiring in my quest to make music. The N1X beckons me to sit down and play it. I can't say that for any other digital piano I've owned.

God Bless,
David


Yamaha AdvantGrand N1X
Duane Shinn - 52 Week Crash Course - Completed
Duane Shinn - Praise and Gospel Course - In Progress
Greg Howlett - Inspirational Improvisation - In Progress
Joined: Jun 2013
Posts: 3,759
P
3000 Post Club Member
Offline
3000 Post Club Member
P
Joined: Jun 2013
Posts: 3,759
David, I can’t say I’m very happy with the term ‘folded’ when referring to a digital piano action.

It seems, to me, derogatory; now, I know you didn’t come up with the term, but I would appreciate it if henceforth we all start calling these actions ‘specialized digital actions’ (SDA).

It’s about time digital pianos start getting some r.e.s.p.e.c.t. ‘round here!

Joined: Nov 2016
Posts: 1,403
D
1000 Post Club Member
Offline
1000 Post Club Member
D
Joined: Nov 2016
Posts: 1,403
Originally Posted by Pete14
David, I can’t say I’m very happy with the term ‘folded’ when referring to a digital piano action.

It seems, to me, derogatory; now, I know you didn’t come up with the term, but I would appreciate it if henceforth we all start calling these actions ‘specialized digital actions’ (SDA).

It’s about time digital pianos start getting some r.e.s.p.e.c.t. ‘round here!

That's too Woke for me. I'll stick with reality. smile

God Bless,
David


Yamaha AdvantGrand N1X
Duane Shinn - 52 Week Crash Course - Completed
Duane Shinn - Praise and Gospel Course - In Progress
Greg Howlett - Inspirational Improvisation - In Progress
Joined: Aug 2017
Posts: 1,634
O
1000 Post Club Member
Offline
1000 Post Club Member
O
Joined: Aug 2017
Posts: 1,634
Originally Posted by Pete14
David, I can’t say I’m very happy with the term ‘folded’ when referring to a digital piano action.

It seems, to me, derogatory; now, I know you didn’t come up with the term, but I would appreciate it if henceforth we all start calling these actions ‘specialized digital actions’ (SDA).

It’s about time digital pianos start getting some r.e.s.p.e.c.t. ‘round here!

Do we have to get politically correct about piano actions so we don't hurt their 'feeling's? eek eek

Osho


Mason & Hamlin BB
Kawai Novus NV10 + VST + Genelec 8050B monitors.
Current VST favorites (in the order of preference): Pianoteq 7/VSL Synchron Concert D//Garritan CFX/Embertone Walker D Full

[Linked Image]
Joined: Aug 2017
Posts: 1,634
O
1000 Post Club Member
Offline
1000 Post Club Member
O
Joined: Aug 2017
Posts: 1,634
Originally Posted by David B
Originally Posted by Pete14
Yes, the hybrids are good; but are they that much better than their digital counterparts to command such premium prices? I don’t know for sure, but I suspect not!

Of course, it's subjective, but my opinion is, yes!

I've owned what many here consider top tier digital actions, i.e., ES8, MP11SE, etc, and I play (don't own) two acoustic grand pianos fairly regularly. As an adult beginner I found that it was more difficult for me to transition between real acoustic actions and the best digital actions. Owning an N1X solved that problem.

Also, I think a real acoustic action is more conducive for developing nuanced dynamic expression when learning the piano. Folded digital actions and even the long pivot Kawai Grand Feel action doesn't provide (for me) the tactile feedback necessary for developing dynamic expression for someone that wants to also play real acoustic pianos.

Kawai James once said - and I'm sure others have, too - get the piano with the best action you could afford. For me that is the N1X hybrid. I should also mention that the look of the N1X, and the experience of sitting behind it really presents to the senses the illusion of playing a real acoustic piano. I've found that to be very inspiring in my quest to make music. The N1X beckons me to sit down and play it. I can't say that for any other digital piano I've owned.

+1 to everything.

Osho


Mason & Hamlin BB
Kawai Novus NV10 + VST + Genelec 8050B monitors.
Current VST favorites (in the order of preference): Pianoteq 7/VSL Synchron Concert D//Garritan CFX/Embertone Walker D Full

[Linked Image]
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 1,474
E
EPW Offline
1000 Post Club Member
Offline
1000 Post Club Member
E
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 1,474
Does God Bless the Folded action or only hour Hybrid Action David?

Is the folded action devils worship. Hmmm I actually think Pete14 has a point here and we need you to proclaim the Gospel of the Digital Piano Action. Or maybe not smile


Seriously now, hope you are doing well in your ministry David.


All these years playing and I still consider myself a novice.
Page 1 of 3 1 2 3

Moderated by  Piano World 

Link Copied to Clipboard
(ad)
Faust Harrison Pianos
Faust Harrison 100+ Steinway pianos
(ad)
Couch to Concert Hall
Couch to Concert Hall
(ad)
PianoDisc

PianoDisc
(ad)
Piano Life Saver - Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
(ad)
Mason & Hamlin Pianos
New Topics - Multiple Forums
Advice on a 1977 Yamaha M1AFX
by RamziKeys - 03/04/21 11:21 AM
Suggestions for specific shoulder pain, LH opened voicing
by Mason&Hamlin57 - 03/04/21 11:05 AM
Two Treble Clefs at Sheet Music of Forrest Gump Theme
by Bavaria Tom - 03/04/21 06:35 AM
Franck Prelude Fugue and Variations op 18
by ZigZagStory - 03/04/21 03:18 AM
Download Sheet Music
Virtual Sheet Music - Classical Sheet Music Downloads
Forum Statistics
Forums42
Topics205,389
Posts3,066,658
Members100,709
Most Online15,252
Mar 21st, 2010
Please Support Our Advertisers


Faust Harrison 100+ Steinways

Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver

 Best of Piano Buyer

PianoTeq Bechstein
Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers

Virtual Sheet Music - Classical Sheet Music Downloads



 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
| Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter |


© copyright 1997 - 2021 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5