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I asked the branch manager to tune GX2 to test and I visited shop again to check if there is any wrong sounding strings with muting rubber. I checked the tuning status first but I couldn't believe it's tuned. I found several notes that I checked several days ago still out of tune. I checked every string and found around 6 strings have false beat. 1 string in lower treble made buzzing sound. Wavy sound of F# in bass sounded better today.

After back home, I watched several youtube clips to see if other pianos have same metallic noises. Yamaha CFX souded metalic buzzing noise in high treble as well.



In this video, especially between 00:20 ans 00: 25 , same noise that I heard from Kawai GX2.

I also tried K800 upright piano and it sounded really good with great light weight touch. Especially bass sound was very clean. Generally I felt Kawai upright piano has lighter touch than Grand piano with Miii action. If K800 was grand , I must buy it.

Last edited by tony3304; 01/22/21 06:12 AM.
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I don’t know if you’re being obsessive or if you’re actually taking the right route here. You may find that you won’t find a piano without imperfections on it so you’ll perhaps have to adjust your tolerance level to this.

I’ll be honest with you, I’m incredibly picky as well but it started to make my life miserable when I worked in concert or practice rooms as I obsessed over the state of the piano. It made shopping for a piano very difficult as well, because I could hear every little thing that I didn’t like.

I’ve heard false beats on so many pianos now from Steinway to Pearl River, and not two pianos of the same model had exactly the same issues. Eventually I started to reach a place where I could cope with imperfections and I heard some imperfections as characteristics rather than flaws. It really depends on what actually is going on because sometimes these flaws can make the piano sound warm, but sometimes they can make the piano sound ugly.

Honestly now I don’t even bother wincing when a piano is screaming out of tune and the scale has been set incorrectly otherwise I’d never practice, but I do admit I prefer practicing on a good instrument.

I do understand where you’re coming from but it feels to me like you’re going to have to start spending a lot more money than you initially thought: first you’re going to have to buy the piano with the fewest imperfections and then you’re going to have to invest in a technician who will have to spend a lot of time fixing whatever imperfections there are.

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Yes, you are absolutely right. Logically I understand the imperfection of piano is characteristics but it was hard to change my sensitivity. Sometimes I find zero false beat piano and it is not even brand new one(It was 20 yrs old Kawai RX2). It sounded unbelivably clean and warm. Fortunately the all false beat strings are in treble area. I may need to live with it or I have to wait another piano stock in and check it again and again

Last edited by tony3304; 01/22/21 06:36 AM.
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You might ask the shop to fix false beats before buying and see if the results satisfy your expectations.

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They will not fix them. They don't know what is 'false beat'. The shop actually sells electric guitar and keyboard and I know the tuner who works for them. He almost destroyed my previous Yamaha grand piano.
I asked him to fix false beat but he couldn't hear what I hear and pretended to he could listen. Then he tried to voice down the false beating key with lots of needling , finally it made the notes lifeless muffled sound. He will make the sound worse and worse.
Maybe I have to lower my expectation from the consumer grade piano. False beats are not very noticeable at the moment. Maybe I will buy the piano in next week if they discount a little more.

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Seems a mistake, for you, to buy this piano; and from this dealer, so two mistakes.

I would buy the K800, but I'm happy with a quality upright.

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Originally Posted by tony3304
[img]Generally I felt Kawai upright piano has lighter touch than Grand piano with Miii action. If K800 was grand , I must buy it.

You can lighten an M3 action in a Kawai grand. It may be heavy in the showroom due to tight rail bushings and hammers settling and sitting too low. A tech can easily address these and regulate the action, which should lighten the touch significantly. Cut balance rail punchings, lighter capstans, and a Pitchlock Touchrail are also relatively inexpensive options that can further lighten the action on a grand. If you really like the sound of the GX, I wouldn't rule it out. You can get the action lightened to the touch you want.


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Tony3304 - I think you need to first find a great tech that can hear and understand the imperfections you find and could try to tune it to your standards. Also, maybe the GX isn’t and won’t be perfect enough. Have you tried an SK2?


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The question is which techs would you recommend in New Zealand?

Not so long ago JF described the dearth of techs in Scotland. PLV deemed this to be just be a datapoint, an exception that proves the rule that there are plenty of good techs around.

From Tony's description of three techs' attempts to voice his Yamaha, New Zealand, North Island or South Island, appears to be another such datapoint.

I will not go into Scottish connections with New Zealand as outwith the realms of this forum.


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Originally Posted by Withindale
The question is which techs would you recommend in New Zealand?

Not so long ago JF described the dearth of techs in Scotland. PLV deemed this to be just be a datapoint, an exception that proves the rule that there are plenty of good techs around.

From Tony's description of three techs' attempts to voice his Yamaha, New Zealand, North Island or South Island, appears to be another such datapoint.

I will not go into Scottish connections with New Zealand as outwith the realms of this forum.
.

I consider a good tech to be AT LEAST as important as the piano. If I couldn’t find one, I would buy a great digital. Not to have a good tech is asking for years of headaches


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Well there are connections between NZ and Scotland for sure, but I don't know if piano technicians fall within that! It's true that in Scotland there is a dearth of good piano technicians. There are only two or three who are capable of concert work, and they're cracking on a bit. By concert work, I mean trusted to work with the world's top pianists. But Scotland is a small country, 5 million people or thereabouts, and outside of the two largest cities, it is quite a sprawling place. To travel from Edinburgh to Wick (and I have played in Wick and the piano tuner was from Edinburgh) by car can take about 8 hours or more, the roads are treacherous, and it can take just as long by train. You can fly, it takes an hour, but it's not a frequent flight.

Anyway, all that aside, the good news here is that you have found one piano that you like, a K800, and although it's an upright, you find the tone works for you. You may find another GX2 that doesn't have false beats. These things can be unpredictable in production pianos.

Most people are not as sensitive as you, even the people making the pianos, so things will go unnoticed at manufacturing level at times, tiny things that to the factory seems small, can be very important to an individual customer.

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Actually, there is no such thing as a false beat. The beat is real and true. It is an aspect of the soundscape of THAT piano. Techs refer to them as "false" only because they interfere with the "partials" beats they are generally listening to. Many good musicians like these additional "beats" as they feel it lends a depth and thickness to the sound of the piano. A good tech learns how to filter these as needed. It's a matter of perception and attitude.

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Originally Posted by P W Grey
Actually, there is no such thing as a false beat. The beat is real and true. It is an aspect of the soundscape of THAT piano.

Peter's comment may sound like a piano technician's apologia, but it is not.

According to measurements by physicists, some of the soundscape Peter mentions is due to longitudinal waves. There are two types, both producing audible sounds at frequencies different from partials:

1. Free-response longitudinal waves arise from the local increase in tension caused by the wire’s elongation, and they have frequencies determined by the length of the wire and its speed of sound.

2. Forced-response longitudinal waves, induced by nonlinear mixing of transverse waves; they occur with significant audible power at frequencies that don’t correspond to transverse overtones.

Better buy another another piano than ask a technician to fix the soundscape of the one you just bought.

Last edited by Withindale; 01/23/21 11:37 AM.

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Unfortunately, it is only one left GX2 in NZ. I am not interested in Yamaha CX at all, if I could choose other pianos, I would've choose other about three months ago because of the unkind and unpleasant staff.

NZ is unbelivably small country, it's totally different country like Korea or Japan where I have hundreds of options and world cheapest piano price esoecially for Japan made piano.

If I want to try another GX2, I am not sure when they will stock in again. Maybe next year? or two years later?

I've just started to adjust myself rather than adjusting piano. If I live in big country, I must have better option but I don't want to move to other country just for piano.

I am realising it's almost impossible to find the piano that satisfying me in all aspects. Also if I think every piano has its own voice and character, I could accept little imperfection as the unique character of the piano.

Last edited by tony3304; 01/24/21 05:21 AM.
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Originally Posted by tony3304
I am realising it's almost impossible to find the piano that satisfying me in all aspects. Also if I think every piano has its own voice and character, I could accept little imperfection as the unique character of the piano.

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It's not in my town and have to buy flying ticket. SK2 is out of my budget. GX2 is more than enough for me. Thanks

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Originally Posted by tony3304
It's not in my town and have to buy flying ticket. SK2 is out of my budget. GX2 is more than enough for me. Thanks

Shigeru line is on a completely different level.

After the purchase, a Master Piano Artisan visits each Shigeru Kawai buyer to prepare the piano at their home to the finest detail.
https://shigerukawai.com/master-piano-artisans.html

Here is little sound excerpt of his/her 2017 SK2, posted by a PW member recently on a thread about audio interfaces for recording piano:
https://soundcloud.com/user420806068/soundchecksk2rmebabyface1lineaudiocm4

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I agree with you that the sound of that CFX in that video is metallic.

Might be well the design of these pianos. Yamaha is known to be on the sharp side.

If your GX2 sounds like that too, and you don't like it, then just move on. I would not bother asking a re-tune, just move on to the next piano/dealer and continue till you find something you overall like right away. I think I tested almost 100 pianos and visited many dealers before I found something I liked.


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