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Here it is, warts and all. If you want to say it would be different with a tensioned string attached, or using an impact hammer, or if if if, go ahead and make your own video and post it! smile

"Demonstration of the twist of a piano tuning pin. The card with graduations is fastened to a wire that is attached to the foot of the pin. The pointer is attached to the the becket hole at the head of the pin. As the pin is rotated back and forth in a piece of pinblock material (with a tuning lever, not shown), you can see the amount of twist the pin develops as indicated by the pointer and the graduated card. This twist is mostly in the head of the pin. When torque is released, there is a small amount of residual twist. This is indicated by the pointer not quite returning to zero. The residual twist is in the portion of the pin in the pinblock and is maintained by friction. No marine mammals were culturally exploited during the making of this video."



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That is very cool and well done! Thanks very much.

All the best.


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Superb!

Bring back piano411 to write tripe about it. No, please don't.....

Last edited by David Boyce; 01/19/21 06:54 PM.
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Very nice, thank you
Can’t help but consider if the tapered tip of the pin plays a roll in testing. But the foot of the pin moves so clearly the pin is twisting

My hypothetical question would be: if you had this sort of visual information for every pin during a tuning, after the string is at pitch and your going to leave it alone, would you prefer the indicators to be equal? Or offset slightly?? Reasoning??

Last edited by Gene Nelson; 01/19/21 07:08 PM.

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Originally Posted by Gene Nelson
Very nice, thank you
Can’t help but consider if the tapered tip of the pin plays a roll in testing. But the foot of the pin moves so clearly the pin is twisting

My hypothetical question would be: if you had this sort of visual information for every pin during a tuning, after the string is at pitch and your going to leave it alone, would you prefer the indicators to be equal? Or offset slightly?? Reasoning??

That is a very good question. I would turn that question around. Where would the indicators be after an experienced tuner is done and has set the pin?

I don't have access to a shop right now, but I would like someone who has access to a grand to make a video with an actual pin in a block in a piano with a string.

Come spring time I will hopefully be able to and will try if no one has done it yet,

I don't think it will change much in how I or most of us are tuning and setting pins, but you never know. Plus it's really interesting!

Thanks again Jeff.


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Originally Posted by Gene Nelson
Very nice, thank you
Can’t help but consider if the tapered tip of the pin plays a roll in testing. But the foot of the pin moves so clearly the pin is twisting

...

Don't follow you about the tapered head of the pin. Since it is not between the two data points (becket hole and foot) it could be egg mushroom or omelet shaped and wouldn't matter.


Originally Posted by Gene Nelson
...

My hypothetical question would be: if you had this sort of visual information for every pin during a tuning, after the string is at pitch and your going to leave it alone, would you prefer the indicators to be equal? Or offset slightly?? Reasoning??


I see no need for the visual info as I can feel when the pin is at the limits of the residual twist (didn't show that on the video). But where to leave it? After rendering the string, I normally perform "the monkey's tail" as per the article "The marshmallow Zone" leaving everything feel relaxed. My reasoning? That's where it will end up on it's own, so might as well put it there in case it turns out to not be stable where the foot is after all.


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Tapered tip is narrower than the body of the pin so it may be a bit weaker, twist before anything else and that is where the hammer engages it. Probably not an issue.
Also the Beckett hole makes that area a bit weaker.
Probably not an issue.


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Originally Posted by Gene Nelson
Tapered tip is narrower than the body of the pin so it may be a bit weaker, twist before anything else and that is where the hammer engages it. Probably not an issue.
Also the Beckett hole makes that area a bit weaker.
Probably not an issue.

Oh, I was thinking about the effects on the demo, not when actually tuning. (Gotta get my head out of the lab...) Sure, it all makes some difference. Most important I think is a good balance between the pin in the block and the string across the bearing points.


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1. Amount of max twist, and residual twist should be proportional to tightness of a pinblock
2. String is constantly exerting force on pin, so there must always be twist "to the left" you can't just set it where you want
3. Because of that there should be less untwisting to sharp after going flat than untwisting to flat after going sharp

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Originally Posted by ambrozy
1. Amount of max twist, and residual twist should be proportional to tightness of a pinblock
2. String is constantly exerting force on pin, so there must always be twist "to the left" you can't just set it where you want
3. Because of that there should be less untwisting to sharp after going flat than untwisting to flat after going sharp

The string will only exert about 20 in lb. But sure, there will always some CCW force from the string.


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Excellent work Jeff, thanks very much.
(Shame old 411 left just too early to see it)

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Originally Posted by N W
Excellent work Jeff, thanks very much.
(Shame old 411 left just too early to see it)

Nick

Thank you and everyone else for the compliments.

I am sure 411 is seeing it, just unable to comment on it.


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Originally Posted by Gene Nelson
Tapered tip is narrower than the body of the pin so it may be a bit weaker, twist before anything else and that is where the hammer engages it. Probably not an issue.
Also the Beckett hole makes that area a bit weaker.
Probably not an issue.

Hey Gene, you're in the PTG. If you think their Forum is interested, you could post the video there. I only mention it because there didn't seem to be any that actually demonstrated the pin twist. Here's the URL:

https://youtu.be/L16o9RyxPCE


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Originally Posted by UnrightTooner
Originally Posted by Gene Nelson
Tapered tip is narrower than the body of the pin so it may be a bit weaker, twist before anything else and that is where the hammer engages it. Probably not an issue.
Also the Beckett hole makes that area a bit weaker.
Probably not an issue.

Hey Gene, you're in the PTG. If you think their Forum is interested, you could post the video there. I only mention it because there didn't seem to be any that actually demonstrated the pin twist. Here's the URL:

https://youtu.be/L16o9RyxPCE

I’ll do that.


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FWIW: while you were working on your experiment I did do a brief search of the PTG piano tech archives and did not dig up any similar investigation.


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Originally Posted by Gene Nelson
FWIW: while you were working on your experiment I did do a brief search of the PTG piano tech archives and did not dig up any similar investigation.

Perhaps because it is so obvious.


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Much better than my crude setup. Nice job Jeff!

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NIce demonstration Jeff. Would it be possible to have two indicators at the same time? The other possibly attached to the foot of the pin?

-chris


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Originally Posted by Chernobieff Piano
NIce demonstration Jeff. Would it be possible to have two indicators at the same time? The other possibly attached to the foot of the pin?

-chris

Yes... that is where the graduated card is attached. This measures the angular difference between the becket hole and the foot of the pin, nothing else. smile


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Oh ok! I couldn't tell as there wasn't enough footage (or close up) of the set up. Could you shoot a video of the foot catching up after its forced to move?

-chris


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