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#3069977 01/16/21 05:31 PM
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Yamaha N1X v Kawai NV10 - which is best for playing VSTs through like garritan CFX. Only through speakers, I never use headphones when I play or record. I have an audio interface already - Steinberg UR22 and a Kawai CA99 which I want to trade in for a hybrid.

Please, what are users experiences in the sound quality via the speakers of these hybrids? Both VSTs and built in sounds... Speaker system is probably most important factor for me, as important as action almost.

NV10 maybe too much of a risk with reliability issues?

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I think you've got to try it out for yourself, the two are quite comparable imo, to the point where it's mostly personal preference.

Painting in broad strokes, the NV10 probably has a slightly better speaker setup (more/bigger/more powerful speakers). The N1X has the advantage of an audio interface for noiselsss digital audio in from your VST. Both are great for controlling VSTs, you may find that you lean one way or the other based on the feel of the action, the cost, the looks, the UI, etc.


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Beware, the minimum latency of a N1X as an audio interface is nearly 10ms.

Whether it is low enough depends of you.


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I didn't like sound any VSTs played through NV10's speaker system. I have tried: Garritan CFX, Pianoteq, VSL Concert D and others. FYI.

I would suggest that you take a laptop (or even desktop if that's what you have) in the store and actually hook up the VST sound output to Line In of the DP and listen it yourself. VST sound through these speaker systems is very much a matter of personal preference. That will also give you a chance to try out N1X's interface to see if the latency is acceptable for you.

Osho


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Kawai Novus NV10 + VST + Genelec 8050B monitors.
Current VST favorites (in the order of preference): Pianoteq 7/VSL Synchron Concert D//Garritan CFX/Embertone Walker D Full

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Piano speakers are always a disappointment. If you're going to the trouble of using a VST for better sound, there's no point in spoiling that sound by routing it to the piano speakers. That would be like preparing a fine soufflé ... and then dousing it in ketchup.

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Originally Posted by MacMacMac
Piano speakers are always a disappointment.

At least, the NU1X is doing a pretty good job with the built-in audio interface.


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Originally Posted by Frédéric L
Beware, the minimum latency of a N1X as an audio interface is nearly 10ms.

Whether it is low enough depends of you.

That's not confirmed with a Mac - which might be less - because Macs appear to be more efficient when it comes to running piano samples (no need to install drivers).

God Bless,
David


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Originally Posted by MacMacMac
Piano speakers are always a disappointment.
Were you disappointed by the N3X speakers too? shocked


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I honestly think I'll just get the clp785, superior speaker system, better clarity and overall sound for vsts, plus newer samples of cfx and bosendorfer. Ideally I'd buy the nv10, but too many issues with it... Kawai won't come out to fix my current ca99 as it is...

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Originally Posted by MacMacMac
Piano speakers are always a disappointment. If you're going to the trouble of using a VST for better sound, there's no point in spoiling that sound by routing it to the piano speakers. That would be like preparing a fine soufflé ... and then dousing it in ketchup.

For the most part i agree but exclude the fantastic speakersystems in CLP785, CLP795, LX17, LX708,...

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When comparing the 2 for playing vst's i think the point about sensors has to be made.

- Nv10 has hammer sensors
- N1x has hammer sensors + key sensors

Because of the extra sensors the n1x can send note-off velocity which controls "adaptive release samples" in most better vst's.

This adds to the realism, but I think most people don't think it's a big factor. If it's important to you is personal, but it's good to know.

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Originally Posted by mwf
Kawai won't come out to fix my current ca99 as it is...

Please feel free to send me a PM with more details, however I expect the Covid-19 pandemic may be affecting the ability for servicing techs to visit customers.

Kind regards,
James
x


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They obviously can't come because of covid but now the backlogue of customers will be so high it won't get looked at is what I meant when they finally can come out.

It's a great shame as I was set on an NV10, now it's clp785 or n1x as I can't trust Kawai with something that expensive and I'd be more worried about it being faulty than looking forward to enjoying it. TBH I'm worried about an N1X as ot seems they have issues too and will it even be regulated properly out the box... Of i have any issues with any hybrid or dp no one is coming out to fix anytime soon.

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Hey mwf! I purchased the CLP 785 with a similar goal to you and I have been very happy with it so far combining it with Noire Pure. The speakers are extremely powerful (loud) and it is a lot of fun to play. I have no regrets about choosing this over the NU1X. Having said that, the sound does strike me as a little "boxy" and less full than I would have liked upon first playing, even despite its volume. I think this is due mostly to the speaker placement. This effect is less noticeable once a song gets going and everything fills out, but during softer/less-busy sections, it sticks out a little more. I usually get over it pretty quickly and then I just enjoy the experience, but it still isn't exactly what I was looking for in terms of capturing the quality that good headphones provide (of course, that's a high bar to clear). This can be fixed to some degree with EQ, especially by slightly increasing the bass. In comparing samples, samples with a stronger sense of attack also seem to mask this issue. I'm still playing with settings to get it just right for my room, but I have roommates that hate loud noises, so I have to do it during 15 minute windows when they go outside. wink While I haven't had a chance to try it in person, I have a strong suspicion that the 795 may be better than the 785 for VST sound quality and feel a little more natural.

Your impression may be different from mine. My friends can kind of see where I'm coming from, but they are very impressed with the quality.


Even with the limitations, I still vastly prefer this setup to using a lesser midi controller and external speakers. The instrument looks great and adds a nice ambience to the house. Have fun with your purchasing decision!

Last edited by Tozen; 01/18/21 02:56 PM.
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Originally Posted by Tozen
Hey mwf! I purchased the CLP 785 with a similar goal to you and I have been very happy with it so far combining it with Noire Pure. The speakers are extremely powerful (loud) and it is a lot of fun to play. I have no regrets about choosing this over the NU1X. Having said that, the sound does strike me as a little "boxy" and less full than I would have liked upon first playing, even despite its volume. I think this is due mostly to the speaker placement. This effect is less noticeable once a song gets going and everything fills out, but during softer/less-busy sections, it sticks out a little more. I usually get over it pretty quickly and then I just enjoy the experience, but it still isn't exactly what I was looking for in terms of capturing the quality that good headphones provide (of course, that's a high bar to clear). This can be fixed to some degree with EQ, especially by slightly increasing the bass. In comparing samples, samples with a stronger sense of attack also seem to mask this issue. I'm still playing with settings to get it just right for my room, but I have roommates that hate loud noises, so I have to do it during 15 minute windows when they go outside. wink While I haven't had a chance to try it in person, I have a strong suspicion that the 795 may be better than the 785 for VST sound quality and feel a little more natural.

Your impression may be different from mine. My friends can kind of see where I'm coming from, but they are very impressed with the quality.


Even with the limitations, I still vastly prefer this setup to using a lesser midi controller and external speakers. The instrument looks great and adds a nice ambience to the house. Have fun with your purchasing decision!

Thanks for this, very useful indeed. The kawai CA99 I have is boxy, very much so.

If i was to get a clp795 I would imagine that I'd just be annoyed with myself as for that money I could get a N1X or Nv10, which clearly have far superior actions. But I'd say your spot on with your assessment, it's bound to have a vastly superior sound system which would bring the samples and vst to life, but i couldn't pay £7500 on a dp without it being a hybrid.

I guess I could risk getting a N1X and just hope garritan CFX sounds good enough through it, hopefully better than my CA99, although it's definitely passable and okay.

I have played the N1X and I was happy enough with it, it's just i wasn't overly impressed with the clarity/clearness of the speakers... Maybe it's my ears...

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DP speakers likely are selected/designed/tuned so that
DP output -> DP speakers -> realism (which includes cabinet resonance)

VST output likely is meant for
VST output -> regular flat output speakers -> realism (but no cabinet resonance because output is from independent speakers)

to bridge the gap, could this be useful:
VST output -> split line out to DP speakers for cabinet resonance
-> plus also a line out to an EQ that sends the balance that is lacking to speakers/sub to fill the gap.

so when playing DP sounds, use DP speakers. when playing VST / other regular music (eg orchestral accompaniment), channel to the split method?

for orchestral accompaniment it seems wiser to just channel purely to independent speakers because you DON'T want cabinet resonance.

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Aside from dubious marketing claims ... where have you seen evidence of this:
Originally Posted by kailord
DP speakers likely are selected/designed/tuned so that DP output -> DP speakers -> realism, which includes cabinet resonance.

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Originally Posted by kailord
VST output -> split line out to DP speakers for cabinet resonance
-> plus also a line out to an EQ that sends the balance that is lacking to speakers/sub to fill the gap.

so when playing DP sounds, use DP speakers. when playing VST / other regular music (eg orchestral accompaniment), channel to the split method?

This is exactly what I do with my N1X. Internal samples sound the best (to my ears) using the internal speakers only. VST's are better using a combo of both internal and external monitors.

However, lately, in an attempt to protect my ears from further hearing damage, I've been running my VST's exclusively through the internal N1X speakers. I'm finding it causes a bit less ear fatigue.

God bless,
David


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Very interesting thread.

I've sold my CA97 and planning for a CA99.

I have to say that although I'm fairly happy playing the on-board sounds of the CA97, I still enjoy more PTQ and all the customization it offers.

It's been years now since I bought my CA97 (2015) and tried to get different VST's to sound good through the on-board speakers.

It's always been a frustration, since the on-board speakers are perfectly tuned up to combine well with the internal samples, as some fella well pointed out.

I've recently managed to get some satisfying results in this sense, after hours and hours of fiddling here and there, trying out different equalizations etc turns out that the cabinet resonance adds some more mid-range frequency, meaning that any input signal will be significantly colored by the mere fact of the resonance.

Also, I've noticed that I'm getting better sound when activating the sound brilliance and setting it up to 4/10, otherwise it sounds dull, even if you lower the mid frequency a bit (frequencies around 950Hz).

The bass is also remarkably weak and thin whenever played with VST (specially PTQ), so boosting it a bit either from the VST itself or from the piano EQ is always the way to go for me.

Regardless of this all, I've also tried the typical setup for VST in which my CA97 purely acted as a MIDI controller, using a pair of monitors MAudio BX5 2D with 1m distance between them, and between my ears to each of them. Horrible experience, no realism, and definitely less fun than playing it through the on-board speakers.

My conclusion is, piano speakers SYSTEM is designed to give a nice piano sound, regardless of the source of sound, it should be capable of reproducing all the needed frequencies and nuances at the proper sound levels without issues, and that requires some engineering I guess that is adding that extra value that we lack when going simple configurations with just a couple of studio monitors, this is at least my experience and it may differ from other fellas around here.

In this sense, I'd say the cons of using on-board speakers are less than those using simple monitors. None is perfect, but I still prefer the first to the latter, and if I had to use one single word to justify it I'd say realism.

Even I'm not able to forget that I'm playing a digital thing and it's never gonna be an acoustic piano, the feeling while I'm getting the sound internally differs a world to the speakers one. Again, after a lot of tweaking and frustration, not right out of the box.

My 2 cents smile

Regards,
David

Last edited by David Izquierdo; 01/19/21 07:01 AM.

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Various factors affect realism -

Direction of speakers. DP simulates upward and downward sound. Also, this direction naturally removes the higher frequencies by speaker direction roll off. So it doesn't feel so speaker-like. So monitors u might not want them in your face if u feel they seem like speakers.

DP speakers are in cabinet and vibrate the cabinet, transmitting the feeling to keys and pedal. Like a piano. For external speakers to do this, firing them at your piano isn't enough cos there's no actual physical connection, but it might be the best way to simulate. Eg pointing your sub or other speakers at the cabinet to squeeze what vibration can be transmitted to it.

For the future a high end DP might market itself with ability to use DP speakers as well as potentially extra DP-mounted speakers that engage only if having line in signal. That would benefit VST users.

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