2017 was our 20th year online!

Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 3 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments.
Over 100,000 members from around the world.
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

Shop our online store for music lovers
SEARCH
Piano Forums & Piano World
(ad)
Best of Piano Buyer
 Best of Piano Buyer
(ad)
Pianoteq
Steinway Spiro Layering
(ad)
Wessell Nickel & Gross
PianoForAll
Who's Online Now
85 members (aphexdisklavier, aesop, anotherscott, 8ude, avss01, Beowulf, agent8698, 23 invisible), 525 guests, and 567 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
(ad)
Estonia Pianos
Estonia Pianos
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Hop To
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 3,068
D
3000 Post Club Member
OP Offline
3000 Post Club Member
D
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 3,068
I have played 'Masques' and 'L'isle joyeuse' before, but never payed attention to '...d'un cahier d'esquisses' that seems to be the missing link in the originally planned 'Suite B.' Debussy actually intended to write. Due to differences betweem him and his publisher(s) and to marital situations he eventually seemed to have been okay with the publication of old pieces (revised albeit) as 'Suite B.'. Therein the 'Menuet' isn't really what it should be and the 'Passepied' isn't at all what it says, it used to be a 'Pavane', 'Clair de lune' was called:'Promenade sentimentale', but money was important then. The actual Suite B. should be, to some scholars,: 'Masques', a certain sarabande, and 'L'isle joyeuse'. The missing sarabande has been identified as: '...d'un cahier d'esquisses'. what do you think of this piece and it's insertion between the above mentioned 2 pieces to form the '2nd' and real Suite Bergamasque?


Longtemps, je me suis couché de bonne heure, but not anymore!
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 29,228
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Online Content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 29,228
All that information is very interesting to me and totally unfamiliar. I like all the pieces, and it certainly seems reasonable to play them together whether or not they really were meant as a suite.

Were the title changes you mentioned made by the publishers? I'm glad they chose not to use Promenade Sentimental.

Joined: Feb 2019
Posts: 1,622
S
1000 Post Club Member
Online Content
1000 Post Club Member
S
Joined: Feb 2019
Posts: 1,622
I think you are talking about 2 different things. One is about the actual content of suite bergamasque and the other about whether there is a second suite. The suite bergamasque was composed in 1890 so well before its publication date when Masques and the others are composed in 1905. So the suite bergamasque was already set well before the other pieces were composed (even if D revised some of them). Debussy thought about adding Masques and Isle joyeuse but finally changed his mind. In my view there is no doubt that the suite bergamasque as published is the choice of Debussy himself. The name changes may have been his own chouce or suggestions from the publisher.

I think that he made the right choice, stylistically Masques and the other 2 are written differently than suite bergamasque and regrouping them would have broken the consistency of the set.

Some think that Debussy may have thought about grouping D'un cahier d'esquisse with the other 2. Not sure if it is a fact or an assumption. I dont necessarily see a lot of connections of the Cahier with the other 2 but it is not impossible to think of grouping them together either.

Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 3,068
D
3000 Post Club Member
OP Offline
3000 Post Club Member
D
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 3,068
As Debussy had his differences with Fromont, due to the publication of 'Pelléas et Mélisande' and hence his move to Durand (et fils), he walked away from his old and sold pieces, so the '2nd' suite is a more modern attempt at an older idea, these are not different things but logical consequences of (rather mundane) developments, even a better look at things one might argue.


Longtemps, je me suis couché de bonne heure, but not anymore!
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 3,068
D
3000 Post Club Member
OP Offline
3000 Post Club Member
D
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 3,068
one might even dare to state that the 1st Suite B. was published against his will and that the 2nd Suite B. wasn't published at all, although every movement is at our grasp now, 'tristes sous leur déguisements fantasques, tout en chantant sur le mode mineur', all very mysterious, as it should be.


Longtemps, je me suis couché de bonne heure, but not anymore!
Joined: Feb 2019
Posts: 1,622
S
1000 Post Club Member
Online Content
1000 Post Club Member
S
Joined: Feb 2019
Posts: 1,622
Originally Posted by dolce sfogato
one might even dare to state that the 1st Suite B. was published against his will and that the 2nd Suite B. wasn't published at all, although every movement is at our grasp now, 'tristes sous leur déguisements fantasques, tout en chantant sur le mode mineur', all very mysterious, as it should be.

Well, Debussy sold the rights of SB in 1891 to Paul de Choudens. So the suite should have been printed much earlier, in a different state though. It is Georges Hartmann who then acquired the rights but still did not print. At his death, his nephew sold the rights to Fromont who then finally decided to print. Fromont was supposed to print Pelleas but Durand offered a better price and the deal was that he would keep SB and agree for Durand to get Pelleas.

So i dont know if Debussy did not want to publish The SB but he did sell his rights so there was no point of not publishing it and anyway it was not his decision anymore. In any case when Froment decided to go for printing, it is then Debussy who decided to revise the manuscript and also supervised the design of the title pages. The various changes of titles appear in the proofreadings. Debussy did not get any money for the print since he already sold the rights.

As to the other pieces, as i said the idea may have crossed Debussy mind to add new pieces as he supposedly played Isle joyeuse to Vines from the SB in 1903. But eventually he did not. I think the SB has always been a clearly separate work with its own identity. That D considered to print Isle Joyeuse and Masque with the Sarabande as a triptych is a possibility, unproven at this point. And that Sarabande is the Cahier is also an assumption, which i dont know if that is a real one or not. But it seems based on the history of the piece that SB has always been a fairly clear score, and stylistically it is obvious that Masques and the other pieces belong to a more modern musical concept which is posterior to the SB. I dont think there is a rationale to mix up the 2.

Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 3,068
D
3000 Post Club Member
OP Offline
3000 Post Club Member
D
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 3,068
I have never mixed up the two, but I just wondered if one has ever considered playing the 3 later pieces as a suite. For me, as a performer, that has more meaning than all other possible arguments, scholar or musical, and I think the '2d' suite is as valuable as the '1st', although it is not named as such, and it is very instructive to the artist performing any of the 7 involved pieces to be aware of their history.


Longtemps, je me suis couché de bonne heure, but not anymore!

Moderated by  Brendan, Kreisler 

Link Copied to Clipboard
(ad)
Faust Harrison Pianos
Faust Harrison 100+ Steinway pianos
(ad)
Couch to Concert Hall
Couch to Concert Hall
(ad)
PianoDisc

PianoDisc
(ad)
Piano Life Saver - Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
(ad)
Mason & Hamlin Pianos
New Topics - Multiple Forums
Fridolin Schimmel F121T
by Lokey21 - 03/05/21 05:34 PM
practice piano device sugguestion?
by MrIDK - 03/05/21 03:25 PM
NY Times article on Blind Tom
by pianoloverus - 03/05/21 02:35 PM
Sound Magic Releases Nameless Grand
by kevin5540 - 03/05/21 02:20 PM
ES110 auto power off
by FinnP - 03/05/21 12:28 PM
Download Sheet Music
Virtual Sheet Music - Classical Sheet Music Downloads
Forum Statistics
Forums42
Topics205,408
Posts3,067,011
Members100,724
Most Online15,252
Mar 21st, 2010
Please Support Our Advertisers


Faust Harrison 100+ Steinways

Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver

 Best of Piano Buyer

PianoTeq Bechstein
Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers

Virtual Sheet Music - Classical Sheet Music Downloads



 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
| Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter |


© copyright 1997 - 2021 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5