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Originally Posted by EPW
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So, is Pianoteq worth it? Or did I blow it?

Doesn't matter as you like the results. For me too on my Casio PX5s keyboard I use Pianoteq and like the results. Others might not and that is there choice.

Well, it absolutely matters to me since I produced a recording with it!



If I'm playing at home and I enjoy it, then yes, that's great. But if I'm producing a recording, I want the recording to be generally enjoyable and have musical value.

Getting this input will help me improve and make better decisions for future recordings. Will I dare make another recording with Pianoteq? laugh

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Originally Posted by navindra
Pianoteq is absolutely majestic here. Pianoteq sings effortlessly with crystal clarity and bringing out different voicings can be a joy, despite my skills and consistency in playing being limited. In the hands of an expert, responsiveness and playability is everything.

Agreed. Pianoteq is really good here!

Congratulations navindra. Thanks for sharing.


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Nice playing. Really. You seem more at ease playing this piece. On some or your previous video you looked more tense.

One thing, would you mind sharing the Pteq piano version AND preset on your videos?

Last edited by EVC2017; 12/30/20 05:24 PM.

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Originally Posted by schismal
. . . I then tried ASIO4ALL, but I get absurd levels of sound distortion (no matter what buffer I use, even at max) in every DAW that I've loaded (VSI Workshop, Reaper, Cantabrile). My next step would be purchasing an audio interface that includes its own ASIO drivers, but I'm a bit new to this and would rather not spend more money if avoidable.

Schismal --

If you're using Pianoteq:

. . . Can you use Pianoteq's built-in player,
. . . . and _not_ use a DAW ?

It may be the DAW's that are introducing latency.

I run Pianoteq on an Intel i5 laptop, using ASIO4ALL and its built-in Realtek audio interface, and don't have a latency problem.

I also disable the WiFi adapter -- it gives me audio glitches when it's enabled, even though I'm not doing any Internet work.


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Originally Posted by Max_Forte
Originally Posted by navindra
Pianoteq is absolutely majestic here. Pianoteq sings effortlessly with crystal clarity and bringing out different voicings can be a joy, despite my skills and consistency in playing being limited. In the hands of an expert, responsiveness and playability is everything.

Agreed. Pianoteq is really good here!

Congratulations navindra. Thanks for sharing.

Thanks!

Originally Posted by EVC2017
Nice playing. Really. You seem more at ease playing this piece. On some or your previous video you looked more tense.

Thanks! This was actually the hardest recording I've ever done. Everything went wrong. I was planning to sight read the music, as I normally do during practice, but I couldn't do it for the recording. Something I played perfectly well in the first half, I completely messed up in the second half. My focus was disrupted by the most trivial things, like a speck of dust on the keys. And when I thought I did get a good recording, Pianoteq revealed that I had silent or missed notes in some of the most important chords of the piece.

I will need to do a full postmortem with my teacher and ABF.

Originally Posted by EVC2017
One thing, would you mind sharing the Pteq piano version AND preset on your videos?

I've only recorded two videos with Pianoteq -- the first was with U4 à la Monk with Pianoteq 6.7 and I think it was generally well-received.

For the second one, I used Pianoteq 7.0.5 but I'm still very curious to know what people think about it generally and whether any Pianoteq users can identify the instrument independently.

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Originally Posted by navindra
I've only recorded two videos with Pianoteq -- the first was with U4 à la Monk with Pianoteq 6.7 and I think it was generally well-received.

For the second one, I used Pianoteq 7.0.5 but I'm still very curious to know what people think about it generally and whether any Pianoteq users can identify the instrument independently.

My Guess is the Bluthner


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Originally Posted by peterws
Originally Posted by navindra
For the second one, I used Pianoteq 7.0.5 but I'm still very curious to know what people think about it generally and whether any Pianoteq users can identify the instrument independently.

My Guess is the Bluthner

Good guess! It's actually the C. Bechstein.

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Originally Posted by navindra
I've been working on this for a while, so here it is:


A musical concept where I use the Novus NV10 native engine for the first half of the piece then switch over to Pianoteq 7 running on the Raspberry Pi 400.

If you know Gymnopédie No. 1, you know that the two halves are nearly identical except for the concluding measures. Hence, it's up to the pianist to create interesting musical contrasts and variations. I very much attempted to do this with dynamics and phrasing, but added a touch of individuality by switching voices as well -- I think of it as easing up on the metaphorical soft pedal.

I'm a beginner pianist, so I would never be able to match the more advanced players in this forum, but what Pianoteq afforded me here was the ability to create something individually unique, and hopefully, something musically interesting.

Down to brass tacks -- Novus vs Pianoteq.

I'll have more to say about Novus-specific things in the Novus thread. Let's just say it was not entirely a bed of roses and I experienced some frustrations.

I chose the SK-EX Romantic rendering here and, to me, it's undeniable that the sample is absolutely gorgeous. The resonances are lush and the SK-EX engine's hybrid modeling approach is extremely effective.

The playability and versatility of this Romantic rendering doesn't match the Classic rendering, let alone Pianoteq, however Romantic absolutely sings a sweet song and the more limited palette afforded only seems to make it easier to play and make it sound good. I was often tempted to finish the entire piece using just this rendering, especially since switching to a different piano with a different response mid-way can throw things off.

You be the judge on Pianoteq's timbre and overall sound. I tried to create my own personalized piano for this piece, for better or worse -- you tell me.

Frankly, I don't think anyone outside of elitist circles, not even most amateur pianists, really care about timbre in a more absolute sense. I flighted my piece with my inner circles and no one had anything bad to say -- usually it was "we like both" and "what are you even talking about". There was absolutely no criticism directed at Pianoteq, and usually it was more along the lines of "wow, that sounds really good" or "I really like both of them".

My theory is that once timbre is decent, or good enough, string resonances trumps everything. Resonance+reverb is a major component of what creates the feeling of a piece.

Pianoteq is absolutely majestic here. Pianoteq sings effortlessly with crystal clarity and bringing out different voicings can be a joy, despite my skills and consistency in playing being limited. In the hands of an expert, responsiveness and playability is everything.

I didn't tamper with any settings that might have made it easier to play consistently by restricting the tonal palette i.e. the velocity curve and dynamic settings -- so there was a lot more to work with here. The wider tonal palette makes it easier to shoot oneself in the foot, so to say, but provides for a true range of expression for a more experienced pianist. There is one regret I have -- a Pianoteq setting that I overlooked until it was too late -- but I'm not going to mention it unless someone notices it first.

Beyond the sound, Pianoteq provided a superior environment in every way:

  • Unlike with the Novus, I never lost a recording. MIDI auto-archiving is priceless.
  • Unlike the Novus, capturing MIDI with the ability to tweak voice settings and re-render extremely high quality audio is priceless.
  • Reviewing my performance on Pianoteq allowed me to identify many mistakes, such as missed or silent notes, and diagnose issues with my performance. Even when I wasn't performing on Pianoteq, it was always recording. Truly instrumental to the learning process, when you can no longer have a teacher by your side. It taught me to me listen more intently.


The Raspberry Pi 400 never broke a sweat with this piece. It was flawless and invisible.

I ran Pianoteq on it at 48000 Hz, 128 samples, and 256 polyphony (never got this high), in real time. I had two simultaneous VNC sessions open to it to monitor recordings. I controlled switching purely from the Novus touch screen.

So, is Pianoteq worth it? Or did I blow it?
Nice playing and sound Navindra, thank you for sharing.


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Originally Posted by navindra
The Raspberry Pi 400 never broke a sweat with this piece. It was flawless and invisible.

With what latency? I find that even with my MacBook Pro the latency is barely acceptable. Feels "weird", and reason becomes clear if you play both Pianoteq and internal sound together: the former is a tiny bit too late...

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Originally Posted by Del Vento
Originally Posted by navindra
The Raspberry Pi 400 never broke a sweat with this piece. It was flawless and invisible.

With what latency? I find that even with my MacBook Pro the latency is barely acceptable. Feels "weird", and reason becomes clear if you play both Pianoteq and internal sound together: the former is a tiny bit too late...

For day to day, I was using 44.1 KHz with 64 samples -- Pianoteq reports the latency as 1.5 ms. For this recording, I used 48 KHz and 128 samples which Pianoteq reports as 2.7 ms.

Obviously this isn't the E2E latency, which I also judge by enabling the local sound -- it is basically spot-on. I thought it was ever so slightly reverb-y at first but then I disabled reverb and it was fine -- I just hear the tail end of the Pianoteq duplex resonances (which feel uncannily acoustic-like and is quite remarkable).

Few things I need to note:

  • I'm using an external USB audio interface.
  • I can cause crackles by doing something like keeping the sustain pedal down and doing a glissando from the bottom of the keyboard. However, I never cause crackles with any of my actual pieces or day-to-day practice or recordings.
  • I did recompile my kernel at some point, but at the time I didn't believe it had any perceptible impact. I believe there are more real-time optimizations that can be done.

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I was tipped off on Twitter that Pianoteq ARM64 on Raspberry Pi yields a significant performance boost.

Indeed it does!

This is a glissando from the lowest bass notes with sustain pedal down the entire time. I show both the configurations I actively use here:

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

This was a significantly less taxing test on ARM32 (from before):

[Linked Image]

It's a remarkable achievement. No spikes whatsoever on a challenging test.

I only hacked up my current installation to support 64-bit ARM temporarily -- this isn't even a proper install.

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Originally Posted by Del Vento
With what latency? I find that even with my MacBook Pro the latency is barely acceptable. Feels "weird", and reason becomes clear if you play both Pianoteq and internal sound together: the former is a tiny bit too late...

That is strange, Pianoteq should normally shine by allowing for short latencies. Do you have an idea of how much the tiny bit is? On my i5 laptop with internal DAC the difference between Pianoteq and internal sound is only 7 ms, with an external DAC that is 5 ms. However, intermittently (when windows decides it has something more important to do) latency is temporarily much higher and variable. Once per hour or so. For this reason I am very interested in navrinda's solution.

@navrinda, may you posted this already and I missed it, but do you have an idea how much latency overall there is with your Pi/Pianoteq setup with respect to the internal Novus generated sound?

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Originally Posted by navindra
I was tipped off on Twitter that Pianoteq ARM64 on Raspberry Pi yields a significant performance boost.

...

It's a remarkable achievement. No spikes whatsoever on a challenging test.

I only hacked up my current installation to support 64-bit ARM temporarily -- this isn't even a proper install.

That's great; so you don't have any issues with running PT7.x on a Raspberry Pi. I've ordered an audio interface (MOTU M2) in preparation for when I receive the NV-10, so I can create the same setup as you have.

(I already had it on the LX-17, without an interface, but don't use it because of a ground loop, because the LX-17 has no minid-out.)

In the end the only difference would be that I'm running Pianoteq on an (older) Intel NUC, with an i3-6100 CPU. When I start swiping the keyboard up and down with pressed pedal, the performance index is 79, and it starts clipping at a polyfony of around 160. That

But, as said, I don't use proper audio interface at this point, and I use ASIO4ALL as the drivers. Therefore it may even become better yet.

If you have no issues on the Raspberry Pi with a performance index of 28, I don't have to worry at all with regard to the capacity of the i3. Thanks for confirming smile


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navindra, my apologies if I overlooked this, but which generation of Raspberry Pi are you using?

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Originally Posted by navindra
Originally Posted by peterws
My Guess is the Bluthner

Good guess! It's actually the C. Bechstein.

The C. Bechstein is by far the best PianoTeq model in my opinion, especially 'player position'. I find it tolerable in most circumstances.

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A Raspberry Pi 400 from Pianoteq's forum KJ.


All these years playing and I still consider myself a novice.
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Navindra: why haven't you used something like a NUC and a bluetooth keyboard with integrated touchpad? You could have put the NUC permanently behind the piano, and it wouldn't have required a cable. It would also have been faster.

I intend to velcro the MOTU 2 under the piano like you did (using industrial velcro with at least 10 pounds of carrying weight). Then I'm going to run the cables beneath the piano, using something like this:

[Linked Image]

That is cable spiral wrap, to keep the USB and midi-cable coming from the audio interface together...

[Linked Image]

... and some self-adhesive tie-wrap holders to prevent the cable sagging below the piano.

I'll run the spiraled cable from the audio interface to the back of the Novus. There, the midi-cable will divert into the Novus' back connection panel. With regard to the NUC, I don't yet know if I'll route the cable upward and put the NUC on a corner of the piano, or route it downward behind the speaker/pedal stand, and put the NUC between the wall and the piano.

Advantage of the first option is that I can turn the NUC off, advantage of the second option is that the piano itself stays clean, and doesn't look like it's got a computer connected to it.

The NUC runs Windows, which is controlled through the Microsoft Remote Desktop app on the iPad Pro 12.9. (I like Linux, and use it a lot, but not when I am not certain of hardware support such as with audio interfaces... maybe I'll someday try it on the NUC and see how the MOTU 2 works there.)

Last edited by Falsch; 01/14/21 10:47 AM.

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Originally Posted by pianogabe
I missed it, but do you have an idea how much latency overall there is with your Pi/Pianoteq setup with respect to the internal Novus generated sound?

The best I have is this:

http://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthreads.php/topics/3066346/re-pianoteq-hands-on.html#Post3066346

Otherwise, I have no idea how to measure it any better than that.

Originally Posted by Falsch
So you don't have any issues with running PT7.x on a Raspberry Pi. I've ordered an audio interface (MOTU M2) in preparation for when I receive the NV-10, so I can create the same setup as you have.

I believe someone else reported success with the MOTU M2 with a Raspberry Pi as well.

Originally Posted by Falsch
In the end the only difference would be that I'm running Pianoteq on an (older) Intel NUC, with an i3-6100 CPU. When I start swiping the keyboard up and down with pressed pedal, the performance index is 79, and it starts clipping at a polyfony of around 160.

Hahah, I never tried swiping up and down with the pedal down the whole time. Undoubtedly the Pi would fail that test as well. I never reach anywhere near polyphony 160.

This is a normal load test with the embedded Blues Demo and NY Steinway D Classical Recording, much more realistic:

[Linked Image]

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Originally Posted by Kawai James
navindra, my apologies if I overlooked this, but which generation of Raspberry Pi are you using?
Originally Posted by EPW
A Raspberry Pi 400 from Pianoteq's forum KJ.

Yes, I bought the Raspberry Pi 400 out of curiosity (not for Pianoteq) and because I was so impressed with the Raspberry Pi Zero W that I bought for Pi-hole.

Here are further details of my setup.

Originally Posted by Falsch
Navindra: why haven't you used something like a NUC and a bluetooth keyboard with integrated touchpad? You could have put the NUC permanently behind the piano, and it wouldn't have required a cable. It would also have been faster. (I like Linux, and use it a lot, but not when I am not certain of hardware support such as with audio interfaces... maybe I'll someday try it on the NUC and see how the MOTU 2 works there.)

Your plans are really impressive and elaborate! Photos of your final setup will be great. I only used velcro and light tape... and well, you can "see" the results of that in my video above. laugh

I have an Intel NUC Skull Canyon from a few years ago but it is far from silent, although I use it for desktop computing not an embedded application. I am quite allergic to fan noise and the Raspberry Pi 400 is 100% silent yet always working.

This person is using a Raspberry Pi 400 with MOTU2 on their AvantGrand N3X.

The MOTU2 looks super nice and I do wish I had gotten that one!

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Originally Posted by navindra
Your plans are really impressive and elaborate! Photos of your final setup will be great. I only used velcro and light tape... and well, you can "see" the results of that in my video above. laugh

Well, using Velcro to put the audio interface under the Novus was actually something I stole from your setup. (I've used remoting into other computers for a long, long time now, so naturally I did so with PT as well as soon as I got the iPad in 2019.) Because I need to go somewhere with the cables, I'll route them using a cable spiral and the self-adhesive tie-wrap holders. I did the same thing when I had the MP7.

Quote
I have an Intel NUC Skull Canyon from a few years ago but it is far from silent, although I use it for desktop computing not an embedded application. I am quite allergic to fan noise and the Raspberry Pi 400 is 100% silent yet always working.

This person is using a Raspberry Pi 400 with MOTU2 on their AvantGrand N3X.

The MOTU2 looks super nice and I do wish I had gotten that one!

Good to know that the MOTU M2 works with Linux. Maybe I'll try it someday.

After reviewing some audio interfaces, I ended up with this list:

Steinberg UR22 MarkII
Steinberg UR22 C
Presonus 24c
Focusrite Scarlet 2i2
Focusrite Clarett 2Pre
MOTU M2

I whittled down the list further like this:

Now, the LX-17 is connected to the NUC using USB, and then back from the NUC headphone out to the LX-17 line-in. This causes buzzing (ground loop). Therefore I want the option to use a MIDI-cable to the audio interface instead of USB.

Focusrite Scarlet 2i2 -> No midi interface.

I also intend, at some point, to replace my 9 year old Sennheiser HD 598 with a HD 600 2019 version, which has a 300 Ohm impedance. I want to be able to use this headphone directly with the audio interface. I might not use this function, but... you never know.

Steinberg UR22 MarkII -> poor headphone amp
Steinberg UR22 C -> poor headphone amp
Presonus 24c -> OK headphone amp, but it's on the back

These are left:

Focusrite Clarett 2Pre -> €325
MOTU M2 -> €200

The Focusrite is easy to obtain, the MOTU M2 is sold out everywhere. I ordered it at Thomann, where it's stated that it would be available somewhere in the next week or so. Between these, the M2 and the 2Pre seem to deliver the same quality with regard to audio. The 2Pre has its own power adapter, and therefore it has a MASSIVE headphone amp. It can even power a 600 Ohm headphone to absolutely ear-deafening levels.

On the other hand, it greatly distorts every headphone with less than 100 Ohm impedance. The MOTU M2 seems to be able to drive everything from 16 Ohms to 300, from at least OK to very good levels, and doesn't distort. Because of the distortion of the low impedance headphons, the higher price, and the added functionality that I don't use, I've dropped the Clarrett and thus the MOTU M2 was left as the only option.

I just hope I don't have to wait for it as long as I have to wait for the Novus. Pictures will take a while... at the moment, I don't expect to receive the Novus before April.

PS: You don't have to go and swap the Presonus for the M2. I've had my finger on the trigger for the Presonus, but decided against it because the headphone jack is on the back, and less powerful than that of the M2. If you do not intend to use the headphone jack (I might actually never use it... I don't know yet), the Presonus is a very solid choice.

Last edited by Falsch; 01/14/21 01:46 PM.

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