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Originally Posted by Maximillyan
Originally Posted by TimM_980
Originally Posted by P W Grey
Max,

I'm curious. It was announced several months ago that Russia was first to have a vaccine and that it was very effective. Whatever happened with that? Never heard a thing after the initial announcement. Do you know? I figure you being there you would be better able to say.

Peter Grey Piano Doctor

Russia has only vaccinated a million people so far. They have a population of 144.5 million people.
There is a vaccine (СПУТНИК) in Russia, vaccination has begun now. Vaccines volume are negligible here. It is not recognized as a vaccine in the entire scientific community until now.
Max, will you have a vaccine in KZ? Wishing you all the best, David.

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Originally Posted by piano411
Originally Posted by RonTuner
Funny, that statement seemed to be a public health statement and based on data as opposed to a political belief.
There's nothing funny about SARS-COV-2. The manner in which a government approaches public health is a political issue. How and when people must cover their face, is a political issue. Disallowing public gatherings is a political issue. Who and when someone should get a vaccinated is also a political issue. Contrary to your opinion, Boyce presented no data, but even if it were to have been presented, the manner in which the government collects the data is also a political issue.

The is a forum that is supposed to stay away from the political issues and talk about piano stuff. It is pretty easy to do.

These are not political issues. They are matters of science and of public health; they concern how to protect oneself and how to protect others. They are surely of direct concern to piano tuners and technicians. I am so sorry to hear about Tim's colleague and friend and wish him the very best for a full and quick recovery.

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Guys, I am hearing many concerns about this topic turning political. No doubt it can easily happen. Here is my suggestion.

Limit discussion to how YOU are addressing YOUR own concerns about the coronavirus, and maybe how you are addressing the concerns of your customers. Maybe you want to wear certain protective equipment, maybe you don't. Maybe you wish to use some sort of disinfectant, or not. If there are regulations limiting you conducting your business, talk about how you are dealing with them.

But get into whether you think someone's concerns are appropriate or not and it is going to cause contention. Get into the fairness or unfairness of restrictions placed upon your business is going to lead to contention.

In other circumstances, I would just shut down the topic and that would be that. BUT, I understand that you need to be able to discuss and share ideas on how to deal with the virus, so I am not closing it. UNLESS, it gets contentious or political, then I'll shut it down. So be kind, considerate, and understanding of the concerns and worries of others.


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I watch the up-to-date information that the CDC puts out and adjust my actions according. They've stated that under normal conditions the virus is not airborne. I ask if anyone in the house is being quarantined, if anyone has shown any cold or flu-like symptoms in the last 7 days, or if anyone has recently received a vaccine. As long as the answer is no, then there is not much to get overly worked up about. We don't greet with a hug for the time being, people don't stay in the same room with me, and I make it a point not to go around licking the piano keys--so far, that game plan seems to be working just fine.

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The last information on the CDC website was updated Oct 28, 2020 - Even that outdated info states the virus is primarily spread through the air.

"COVID-19 most commonly spreads during close contact
People who are physically near (within 6 feet) a person with COVID-19 or have direct contact with that person are at greatest risk of infection.
When people with COVID-19 cough, sneeze, sing, talk, or breathe they produce respiratory droplets. These droplets can range in size from larger droplets (some of which are visible) to smaller droplets. Small droplets can also form particles when they dry very quickly in the airstream.
Infections occur mainly through exposure to respiratory droplets when a person is in close contact with someone who has COVID-19.
Respiratory droplets cause infection when they are inhaled or deposited on mucous membranes, such as those that line the inside of the nose and mouth.
As the respiratory droplets travel further from the person with COVID-19, the concentration of these droplets decreases. Larger droplets fall out of the air due to gravity. Smaller droplets and particles spread apart in the air.
With passing time, the amount of infectious virus in respiratory droplets also decreases.
COVID-19 can sometimes be spread by airborne transmission
Some infections can be spread by exposure to virus in small droplets and particles that can linger in the air for minutes to hours. These viruses may be able to infect people who are further than 6 feet away from the person who is infected or after that person has left the space.
This kind of spread is referred to as airborne transmission and is an important way that infections like tuberculosis, measles, and chicken pox are spread.
There is evidence that under certain conditions, people with COVID-19 seem to have infected others who were more than 6 feet away. These transmissions occurred within enclosed spaces that had inadequate ventilation. Sometimes the infected person was breathing heavily, for example while singing or exercising.
Under these circumstances, scientists believe that the amount of infectious smaller droplet and particles produced by the people with COVID-19 became concentrated enough to spread the virus to other people. The people who were infected were in the same space during the same time or shortly after the person with COVID-19 had left.
Available data indicate that it is much more common for the virus that causes COVID-19 to spread through close contact with a person who has COVID-19 than through airborne transmission. [1]
COVID-19 spreads less commonly through contact with contaminated surfaces
Respiratory droplets can also land on surfaces and objects. It is possible that a person could get COVID-19 by touching a surface or object that has the virus on it and then touching their own mouth, nose, or eyes.
Spread from touching surfaces is not thought to be a common way that COVID-19 spreads"

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/prevent-getting-sick/how-covid-spreads.html


From the footnote:
"The term “airborne transmission” has a specialized meaning in public health practice
Airborne can be used to describe any size particle (e.g., droplet, dust, pollen) capable of travel through the air. For respiratory droplets, that can include droplets that are close to the source and those that have moved farther away. However, most infectious disease and public health experts reserve the term airborne specifically for use in the context of airborne transmission to describe infections capable of being transmitted through exposure to infectious, pathogen-containing, small droplets and particles suspended in the air over long distances and that persist in the air for long times."

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Originally Posted by RonTuner
Even that outdated info states the virus is primarily spread through the air.
No, it says "most commonly spreads during close contact." Close contact is within 6 feet for more than 15 mins. Later they state the limited situations where it "can sometimes be spread by airborne transmission." Then they go on to say "available data indicate that it is much more common for the virus that causes COVID-19 to spread through close contact with a person who has COVID-19 than through airborne transmission." SARS-CoV-2 is the virus, COVID-19 is the disease. There is a difference, and the CDC is clear that they are talking about those that have the disease.

Piano tuners don't need to be in close contact with people for longer than 15 mins. So, it is easy to avoid the CDC's close contact issues.

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Originally Posted by David-G
Originally Posted by Maximillyan
Originally Posted by TimM_980
Originally Posted by P W Grey
Max,

I'm curious. It was announced several months ago that Russia was first to have a vaccine and that it was very effective. Whatever happened with that? Never heard a thing after the initial announcement. Do you know? I figure you being there you would be better able to say.

Peter Grey Piano Doctor

Russia has only vaccinated a million people so far. They have a population of 144.5 million people.
There is a vaccine (СПУТНИК) in Russia, vaccination has begun now. Vaccines volume are negligible here. It is not recognized as a vaccine in the entire scientific community until now.
Max, will you have a vaccine in KZ? Wishing you all the best, David.
thanks, David
I think that so to be but... Kazakhstan's vaccine has not recognized to world society to,
Be we pray,
Max

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So for techs to reduce the risk of transmission to or from their clients while in the home, it is good to consider situations of increased risk and what can be done to reduce the risk.

1 Since there are documented cases of transmission from asymptomatic infections, consider everyone a possible vector - you included! It doesn't really matter if everyone feels fine, that's one of the tricky things about this virus.

2. A negative test is only a snapshot of that moment in time. Similar to us taking a humidity reading at the piano and then assuming that reading will be constant for the next week or so, a negative test even a few days ago is no guarantee that someone wouldn't test positive today.

3. There have also been documented cases of transmission from a person no longer in the room. For us, this means that while we are working in a client's home, there is a slight risk from the air we breathe, hence using a well-fitted quality mask the whole time. If you are "at-risk", requesting the family to stay out of the room for a couple of hours before you arrive should lower the number of suspended viral particles greatly. Same for at-risk clients, they can reduce possible exposure by staying out of the piano room for a bit after we leave.

So we can reduce close contact - where the virus hitches a ride on small droplets that travel through the air. 6 ft is the commonly quoted minimum - but with the new more infectious variants, there are suggestions to increase that to 10 ft. The danger points then are when the client meets us at the door and at the end of the appointment - especially if talking is involved.

Buried in the CDC and other reports is the bit about more viral particles being shed during speaking, singing, laughing. Consider your vocal cords to be similar to those ultrasonic mist humidifiers. Though not as efficient, the vocal cords seem to be able to break down the droplets to a smaller size to hang in the air longer, meaning that there is potential for an increased amount of virus being released into the air.

That means those time of talking to each other are times of increased risk of transmission. A quick look at the mask worn by the client should give you an indication of how well it fits and whether you should increase your distance - consider as you move through the space just occupied by the client and visa-versa what could potentially be hanging or slowly dropping through the air.

Since most of the infections come from breathing in virus hitching a ride on little droplets transmitted through the air, the best protection is still a quality mask that fits so the wearer breathes through it, not around.

Stay healthy and be well!

Ron Koval

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If you are in the US and want to purchase high filtration masks, they are becoming more available from on line industrial supply stores. Search for 'N95' at zoro.com [1]. You can tape the valve from the inside to filter your exhaled breath, if desired.

If N95s aren't your thing, high quality KN95 and KF94 masks are also becoming available. Aaron Collins has done extensive measurements on them and trying to spread the word [2].

If you want more protection than a cloth mask (30-60%) these masks are affordable ($2-$3) and offer superior filtration (95%+), and perhaps a bit of peace of mind.

[1] https://www.zoro.com/3m-n95-disposable-white-particulate-respirator-w-valve-10pk-8511/i/G2152001/
[2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gu0GkjOpOj0

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Originally Posted by RonTuner
1 Since there are documented cases of transmission from asymptomatic infections, consider everyone a possible vector - you included! It doesn't really matter if everyone feels fine, that's one of the tricky things about this virus
It is comments like this why I think no good will come from piano tuners shoveling out health advice on a forum like this. People need to do their own research,
and talk with their own healthcare providers. Ron's statement is in my opinion tantamount to fear porn. The world doesn't need any more of this. People are scared as it is.

The CDC has looked into presymptomatic or asymptomatic transmission. Where did the documented cases Ron talks about come from? "Most reports of presymptomatic (9–12), asymptomatic (13–15), or a combination of presymptomatic or asymptomatic SARS-CoV-2 transmission (16,17) were from China (Table 1). Presymptomatic or asymptomatic primary patients were typically exposed to SARS-CoV-2 during travel from Wuhan or another city in Hubei Province, China (9–16). " They literally listed a handful of cases total in the world. Not hundreds, not thousands. All of the reported cases involved "close contact," usually family members sharing meals, or family members visiting in hospitals. They can't even rule out that these cases didn't have alternative exposure.

They also stated "the detection of SARS-CoV-2 RNA in presymptomatic or asymptomatic persons does not prove that they can transmit the virus to others. "

Even if someone tests positive, is asymptomatic, and is labeled a SARS-CoV-2 infection, they can't even state if they can spread the virus or not. "Although RT-PCR identifies viral RNA and cannot determine whether infectious virus is present, infectiousness can be inferred from cycle threshold (Ct) values. The RT-PCR Ct value represents the number of PCR cycles required to detect SARS-CoV-2 RNA; lower values indicate higher viral load and imply higher infectiousness (20–22)."

People who have symptoms know it. In this day and age, they are not likely to flaunt it. People will sequester themselves automatically. If people cough in public these days, the whole room stares daggers. People will automatically shun the sick in the current environment. If you test positive, the government will most likely force you to quarantine anyway. In the cases of airborne transmission, it was with infected people expressing symptoms, not asymptomatic cases.

So, again I state, I follow the updated information that the CDC puts out there and adjust my actions accordingly. I ask if anyone in the household has exhibited cold or flu-like symptoms, and if anyone has tested positive or under quarantine. If the answer is no, then according to the CDC, if I avoid "close contact," by not exceed the 15 min 6-feet bubble, then I'll be fine working on a piano. Especially if no one is in the room with me. This is based on current data. Not irrational fear mongering. This is what our government tells us.

If other people want to take extra precautions, that's fine. I just have a problem with people doing it in the name of science, when that is clearly not the case.

https://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/26/7/20-1595_article

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Originally Posted by RonTuner
So for techs to reduce the risk of transmission to or from their clients while in the home, it is good to consider situations of increased risk and what can be done to reduce the risk.

1 Since there are documented cases of transmission from asymptomatic infections, consider everyone a possible vector - you included! It doesn't really matter if everyone feels fine, that's one of the tricky things about this virus.

2. A negative test is only a snapshot of that moment in time. Similar to us taking a humidity reading at the piano and then assuming that reading will be constant for the next week or so, a negative test even a few days ago is no guarantee that someone wouldn't test positive today.

3. There have also been documented cases of transmission from a person no longer in the room. For us, this means that while we are working in a client's home, there is a slight risk from the air we breathe, hence using a well-fitted quality mask the whole time. If you are "at-risk", requesting the family to stay out of the room for a couple of hours before you arrive should lower the number of suspended viral particles greatly. Same for at-risk clients, they can reduce possible exposure by staying out of the piano room for a bit after we leave.

So we can reduce close contact - where the virus hitches a ride on small droplets that travel through the air. 6 ft is the commonly quoted minimum - but with the new more infectious variants, there are suggestions to increase that to 10 ft. The danger points then are when the client meets us at the door and at the end of the appointment - especially if talking is involved.

Buried in the CDC and other reports is the bit about more viral particles being shed during speaking, singing, laughing. Consider your vocal cords to be similar to those ultrasonic mist humidifiers. Though not as efficient, the vocal cords seem to be able to break down the droplets to a smaller size to hang in the air longer, meaning that there is potential for an increased amount of virus being released into the air.

That means those time of talking to each other are times of increased risk of transmission. A quick look at the mask worn by the client should give you an indication of how well it fits and whether you should increase your distance - consider as you move through the space just occupied by the client and visa-versa what could potentially be hanging or slowly dropping through the air.

Since most of the infections come from breathing in virus hitching a ride on little droplets transmitted through the air, the best protection is still a quality mask that fits so the wearer breathes through it, not around.

Stay healthy and be well!

Ron Koval

All very good advice. Also wash your hands before removing your mask and avoid touching your face during the tuning.

All the best!


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Originally Posted by jsilva
Since the start I’ve encouraged people to take whatever measures make them feel safe, and if TimM feels he needs to shut down his business then he can do that.

But we do need to have a sense of perspective and not live in fear. (snip)

Just relax, and be wise.

I agree that living in fear is not helpful. But being careless and saying this is just like a bad flu is irresponsible. You are ignoring the rather extreme stress that hospital workers are going through now to try to keep patients alive!

Covid-19 is not as deadly as many old plagues, but it is MUCH more communicable. The hospitals would not be overwhelmed as they are currently are if what you say were accurate. So yes, if one is older or immune compromised in some way, you should be EXTRA careful, but don't blow this off as no big deal. Maybe where you live it hasn't become so serious. But in larger cities, it has become serious indeed!


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There are precedents for airborne spread. They had a big news splash about this restaurant in china where the person nearest to the AC Vent was infected, and he infected many of the other patrons.

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This link was sent to me to consider some time ago. Interested in what others may think. Makes sense to me.


https://articles.mercola.com/sites/...1204&mid=DM737628&rid=1026553105


Peter Grey Piano Doctor


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Dr. Joseph Mercola has a very long history of promoting alternative health solutions of highly questionable value. I personally wouldn't trust anything he says nor any of the products he sells. But you are all welcome to make up your own minds. Here's a link to an article about Mercola from the Center for Science in the Public Interest:

Article about Dr. Joseph Mercola by the Center for Science in the Public Interest


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One never knows for sure what's true or what isn't on the internet.

Peter Grey Piano Doctor


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I do urge everyone not to promote any conspiracy theories of the sort propagated by this so-called Dr Mercola. (Frankly, if he was practicing as a doctor in the UK, he would have been struck off by the General Medical Council for the rubbish he is promoting, like another British ex-doctor who claimed that childhood vaccinations caused autism, making $$$$$ out of his unfounded conspiracy theories which has led to - and is still leading to - the unnecessary deaths of hundreds of thousands of children in many countries.)

Here in the UK, the government shows the public simple graphs regularly on TV. The hospitalization and death rates from Covid-19 follow hard on the heels of the nation's positive test rates, with a lag of about a week or two. You could easily predict the coming shape of their curves simply from the positive rates. No bullish•t, just straightforward and easy to understand information. No need even to show what's happening in hospitals right now, close to breaking point, with doctors and nurses under great strain, and everyone hoping that the vaccinations will soon put an end to the misery. (Sometimes, I wish I could drag one of those C-deniers with me into a Covid ward so they can see what's happening for themselves. Maybe they'd like to enjoy a tête-à-tête with someone who tested positive but has no symptoms too? I happen to know a few. Are you feeling lucky?)

Let me just relate one recent story, where the distraught daughter of her recently deceased mother went on TV to exhort everyone to stick to the lockdown rules. Her mother went to a wedding a few weeks ago - where no-one was ill or had Covid symptoms. Unfortunately, someone at the wedding did have Covid without knowing it. Her (middle-aged) mother contracted the illness and eventually died in hospital.


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Today the total number of Covid deaths in the UK surpassed 80,000. The television news last night illustrated this graphically, with footage of the 2012 London Olympics Stadium filled to capacity - 80,000. That entire crowd, wiped out.

There are some government statistics for the UK here: https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/

The U-shaped curves show how the initial sharp lockdown reduced transmission and hospital admission rates. But a combination of relaxed lockdown rules, the onset of winter, and a new more transmissible strain of Covid, have seen the curve rise sharply again, with the April peak of hospital admissions now exceeded.

There is a new ad campaign, with a short message from Professor Chris Whitty, the government's Chief Medical Officer:

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Another 54,940 cases diagnosed in the UK in the last 24 hours, and over 500 deaths in the same period.

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Originally Posted by David Boyce
Another 54,940 cases diagnosed in the UK in the last 24 hours, and over 500 deaths in the same period.


2 days ago the United States reported over 4,058 covid deaths on that day. Yesterday we had 3,500 die from Covid. I don’t know how anybody could still equate this to a bad flu.

Here in Los Angeles we have around over 200 people dying a day from covid. One every 8 minutes.

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