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Thank you, it is useful but it kind of muffles the sound off all notes. A per note equalizer and total volume control would still be in my wishes.

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Of course the dynamic depends only of how you strike the string, it is impossible to do the same dynamic harsh and mellow- because when you say those two different words you are talking about 2 different dynamics.
But the movements you make to produce the dynamic you want are very important for controlling the sound you want. And slower movements are sometimes important in slow pieces to relax the body and as a consequence have more control.

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Regarding the performance "mumbo-jumbo", I largely agree with the fact it has nothing to do with how the piano produces sound.

However, if a pianist acts weirdly at the piano, for the reason of him being "in the zone" so to speak, suffering with the piece, being into trance, experiencing tribal instincts, producing weird grimaces or thinking that vibrating the key will produce vibrato - so be it! If that helps him/her feel the piece and perform it well, who are we to forbid him from doing so? I've seen videos of myself from aside and I've realized I look ridiculous. But I'm not doing it intentionally, it just comes from me feeling the piece. I'd love to be immobile at the piano similar to Vladimir Horowitz for instance, but if I actively try not to move, I can't play. I remember once I was at a wedding party and they asked me to play something for the couple. I sat at the piano and started playing and after a while some crazy girl came and said "Smile, please smile! You look so sad!!!" and I tried, and she kept repeating it and I started feeling weird, I couldn't play well anymore while someone would just distract me with asking not being "sad" at the piano... One of the most embarrassing and at the same time enraging moments I've had as an amateur pianist.

I believe that teachers should not teach mumbo-jumbo. But they should't discourage pianists to play and act any way they do at the piano either.

Last edited by CyberGene; 01/07/21 12:34 PM.

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Originally Posted by CyberGene
Regarding the performance "mumbo-jumbo", I largely agree with the fact it has nothing to do with how the piano produces sound.

However, if a pianist acts weirdly at the piano, for the reason of him being "in the zone" so to speak, suffering with the piece, being into trance, experiencing tribal instincts, producing weird grimaces or thinking that vibrating the key will produce vibrato - so be it!

That's my take as well. Intellectually, I can believe that the velocity at the hammer at the instant of strike is the only hammer measurement that matters. And it doesn't matter one way or another if the player feels they need to move differently, in the end it's still hammer velocity that is changing. But so be it if they have some kind of behavior/action that results in the velocity they need/want to play the piece as they desire.

Originally Posted by CyberGene
after a while some crazy girl came and said "Smile, please smile! You look so sad!!!"

Funny aside, I had a girl say this exact same thing to me when I was 14, and I remember it to this day as one of the the best, most welcome and helpful piece of unsolicited advice I've ever gotten (I think this long predates the popularization of the acronym "RBF").

Originally Posted by CyberGene
and she kept repeating it and I started feeling weird, I couldn't play well anymore while someone would just distract me with asking not being "sad" at the piano... One of the most embarrassing and at the same time enraging moments I've had as an amateur pianist.

Ouch, yeah, I could see constant badgering just suck you out of the zone.


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Originally Posted by Gombessa
Originally Posted by CyberGene
after a while some crazy girl came and said "Smile, please smile! You look so sad!!!"

Funny aside, I had a girl say this exact same thing to me when I was 14, and I remember it to this day as one of the the best, most welcome and helpful piece of unsolicited advice I've ever gotten (I think this long predates the popularization of the acronym "RBF").

Haha, one of my earliest memories as a kid was when I was a first grader, and apparently I had already gotten this habit of watching "through" people without actually noticing them (while having a deep thought) and having RBF, and some third-grader came to me and attacked me with the words "why are you watching me like this, pr*ck, you wanna fight, here's your fight!!!" and punching me in the face, in a totally WTF moment for me laugh

So, yeah, I've received that advice so many times outside the piano and it might indeed have been one of the best advices I've had, judging by I'm still alive and nobody beat me in a bar or something, so far 🤣

So, I learned to have a calm face when idle or thinking. But playing the piano... no way! Too hard to control my face then.

Last edited by CyberGene; 01/07/21 12:54 PM.

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Originally Posted by CyberGene
[and some third-grader came to me and attacked me with the words "why are you watching me like this, pr*ck, you wanna fight, here's your fight!!!" and punching me in the face

Oh my. Just gonna leave this here:

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I...like the Austrian way better.


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Originally Posted by Gombessa
Originally Posted by CyberGene
Regarding the performance "mumbo-jumbo", I largely agree with the fact it has nothing to do with how the piano produces sound.

However, if a pianist acts weirdly at the piano, for the reason of him being "in the zone" so to speak, suffering with the piece, being into trance, experiencing tribal instincts, producing weird grimaces or thinking that vibrating the key will produce vibrato - so be it!

That's my take as well. Intellectually, I can believe that the velocity at the hammer at the instant of strike is the only hammer measurement that matters. And it doesn't matter one way or another if the player feels they need to move differently, in the end it's still hammer velocity that is changing.

I don't think anybody can argue with that, so let's set it aside and go back to the initial discussion of having different timbre for the same loudness.

As a physicist I agree with all who said this is not possible in the piano: both loudness and timbre for the piano depend on hammer speed at the time it hits the strings. So same loudness equal same timbre. However, that is "actual" loudness, which is different from perceived loudness. And before you think I am switching to the metaphysics, take a look e.g. at https://www.speech.kth.se/music/5_lectures/weinreic/weinreic.html which discusses the topic in the context of piano designing/building. The physiology and psychology of sound perception is such that we may not necessarily be correct when we say "these two things have the same loudness". Hence, the mumbo-jumbo might have some shade of truth into it, and it may be possible to play two things which will be perceived as having the same loudness and different timbre.

In effect this is similar to what we do with legato. In piano, it's impossible to get legato sound like in bowed strings. The sound decays, so if we wanted true legato, each subsequent note should have a lower volume to "tie" with the previous one which has decayed, so we could play only a few notes, not long phrases. Instead we "fake it", largely with a similar illusion of having a subsequent note of a higher volume (compared to the previous one whose sustain has decayed) "appearing" to have the same volume. And in fact, you would find lots of mumbo-jumbo about this topic too: search for how to achieve the perfect legato on the piano and how the fingers should "walk", "dance" or whatever on the keys to achieve it. From the digital perspective this is even harder, because the sympathetic resonances of the strings in the moment you have both the dampers up, for both notes which are legate with each other (strangely though, I have not found many people claiming that legato is harder on a digital as I have found saying that timbre control is, as we are discussing here: I suspect this is due to the fact that timbre on a digital is poor to begin with, but this last thing is my speculation)

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Originally Posted by Gombessa
Funny aside, I had a girl say this exact same thing to me when I was 14, and I remember it to this day as one of the the best, most welcome and helpful piece of unsolicited advice I've ever gotten (I think this long predates the popularization of the acronym "RBF").

laugh

Never heard of the term RBF until now. Had to look it up. OMG. I have this, for as long as I can remember. I can't count the times I've been asked:

"Is something wrong?"
"Are you angry?"
"Why are you looking so irritated?"

Nothing wrong, not angry, and not irritated. This is how I look when everything's -perfectly fine- smile

Then I invariably get told: "In that case, I hope to never see you become angry..."

Even when I feel like I'm smiling from ear to ear, for example for a picture, the result is *still* a picture in which I look like I'm going to rip your head off in the next few seconds. (And even I think so myself.)

Well, back to the NV-10 maybe grin

Last edited by Falsch; 01/07/21 01:30 PM.

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I had to look it up myself. RBF, I also have it. Hey maybe all piano players have it. So which came first the RBF or the piano playing. Sort of like the chicken or the egg.

Maybe we should start a support group sub-forum on Pianoworld for all afflicted with RBF wink


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yes, legato is definitely much harder in a digital. Every time I switch from a digital to an acoustic legato just seems easier! In fact these hybrids are really good for practicing because they have the same action of a grand but the dynamics are much harder to achieve, wich forces you to pay more attention to your technique.

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Originally Posted by navindra
Skill set aside, I've now done multiple recordings with the Novus NV10 and I’ve explored several of the Novus' SK-EX engine renderings, always striving to make my best musical choices for each piece.

  • Classic: This really is the best all-rounder daily driver rendering and is always a safe choice. It’s no wonder that it’s the default. It’s very versatile, very responsive, has a great dynamic range, and sounds absolutely wonderful. (post, recording)
  • Rich: By default, this one cranks up resonances for a big and lush sound -- I customized it somewhat. Not something I would use every day but so suitable for many pieces. (post, recording)
  • Boogie: I had sincerely planned to use Boogie but that one actually failed me in the end… Pianoteq U4 won. (post, recording)
  • Romantic: Finally. (post, recording)

Wow, this is absolutely gorgeous! Your playing in the Gymnopédie is excellent (is it the last thing you did? great progress).

Piano wise, I think (like you wrote and most people told you) that all of them are ok. Yet, I can clearly hear all of them as digital. Less so in the "Rich" setting which is my favorite for listening (it may not be for playing according to what you wrote).

Thanks for sharing!

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Originally Posted by Gombessa
I...like the Austrian way better.

100% agree


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Originally Posted by timitalia
I agree with you that timbre and tone quality in the end of the road can be reduced to physical facts like the velocity the hammer hits the strings, but that doesn't help the pianist and from this it can't be deduced that an optimal, holistic body movement triggered by whatever mental program (like "play from within the keys") is esoteric nonsense.
I just want to make clear, that this is not what I said. On the contrary, I said that things like "the teacher in the video is not wrong when teaching these techniques, because they actually can alter the sound in a desirable way." and "so it is very good advice to be relaxed".
I'm not dismissing the advice or the teaching style as esoteric nonsense. I think it is very good advice. My point was simply, that employing these techniques allows you to more easily achieve the desired tone/timbre by subconsciously playing the correct velocity. But some people argue that they allow you to change the timbre independently from the velocity. And that is an esoteric believe, because it would require some sort of esoteric connection between the pianist and the instrument that doesn't go through the physical path of "hammer strikes string with given force".
But by no means do I think that such teaching or playing techniques are nonsense. And personally, I also don't have problems with the pianist doing whatever, even greatly exaggerated, movements he/she wants, to achieve the desired results.
timitalia, what this boils down to is, that you asked if we think that the NV10 allows you to play such subtle nuances. My convoluted answer was, yes, it does, since it all depends on the velocity alone, on acoustic and DP alike, so if you can control the velocity on the acoustic to achieve this, for example using the techniques you mentioned, then you can apply the same techniques on the NV10 to achieve similar results. Within the limits of the instrument of course. As said, it's not comparable to a finely regulated concert grand. But neither is a run-of-the-mill 10,000€ baby grand.


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Originally Posted by navindra
I've always thought the Novus Romantic rendering was something special. It sounds absolutely gorgeous on the Novus sound system, is easy to play, and can be made to sing.

Nicely played, Navindra.

I think I'm in the minority in that I can't get along with the Romantic character. Overall, I do like its timbre, and it's one of the few rendering characters that doesn't have the very bright (some might say shrill?) trebel end from the SK-EX Rendering resonance engine. Also, it doesn't exhibit the little key-off click/snick sound that I can hear in the SK-EX samples that sours a lot of the other beautiful tones like Rich/Ballad piano.

However, the Romantic is also the only character that has this odd left-right oscillating "leslie/doppler effect" reverberation going on that really stands out when you hit a lone chord or key. It's not so evident on speakers but is really prominent over headphones, and I always feel that the sound is bouncing back and forth in my head whenever I play it smile I've never heard of anyone else mention/complain of this, so I think it's just me.


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Originally Posted by Gombessa
I think I'm in the minority in that I can't get along with the Romantic character. Overall, I do like its timbre, and it's one of the few rendering characters that doesn't have the very bright (some might say shrill?) trebel end from the SK-EX Rendering resonance engine. Also, it doesn't exhibit the little key-off click/snick sound that I can hear in the SK-EX samples that sours a lot of the other beautiful tones like Rich/Ballad piano.

However, the Romantic is also the only character that has this odd left-right oscillating "leslie/doppler effect" reverberation going on that really stands out when you hit a lone chord or key. It's not so evident on speakers but is really prominent over headphones, and I always feel that the sound is bouncing back and forth in my head whenever I play it smile I've never heard of anyone else mention/complain of this, so I think it's just me.

Thank you!

This one is easily remedied actually -- in the menu, just change the Ambience type from Echo to something like Natural and that effect will be disabled.

I also find that Echo is not always suitable for day-to-day use, but I decided to leave native reverb in the recording as my original plan to apply the same external reverb to both the Novus and Pianoteq didn't pan out.

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Originally Posted by navindra
This one is easily remedied actually -- in the menu, just change the Ambience type from Echo to something like Natural and that effect will be disabled.

Oh?? I can't believe I've never tried that, thanks for the tip.

If this works out, I may have found a new favorite sound on the NV-10...


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Where are the Myth Busters when you need them?

(They're blowing up drones, or launching dummies on rockets, or other silly stuff. That's where.)

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Originally Posted by Del Vento
Originally Posted by navindra
  • Classic: This really is the best all-rounder daily driver rendering and is always a safe choice. It’s no wonder that it’s the default. It’s very versatile, very responsive, has a great dynamic range, and sounds absolutely wonderful. (post, recording)
  • Rich: By default, this one cranks up resonances for a big and lush sound -- I customized it somewhat. Not something I would use every day but so suitable for many pieces. (post, recording)
  • Boogie: I had sincerely planned to use Boogie but that one actually failed me in the end… Pianoteq U4 won. (post, recording)
  • Romantic: Finally. (post, recording)

Wow, this is absolutely gorgeous! Your playing in the Gymnopédie is excellent (is it the last thing you did? great progress).

Thank you! Yes, the list is in chronological order, so they could be taken as progress videos. laugh

The recording was extremely challenging to me and I quickly realized I was not ready to do it the way I wanted, but I finally decided to "ship it" and close the 2020 chapter.

Originally Posted by Del Vento
Piano wise, I think (like you wrote and most people told you) that all of them are ok. Yet, I can clearly hear all of them as digital. Less so in the "Rich" setting which is my favorite for listening (it may not be for playing according to what you wrote).

Thanks for sharing!

Good to know that Rich sounds best to you in the recording. I believe the feedback has been thoroughly consistent on this.

What are the things that stand out as digital sounding in the other recordings? Possibly, it may be the reverb.

I'm starting to understand tone/timbre criticisms a little more... feedback and these insights definitely help a lot.

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Originally Posted by JoBert
Originally Posted by timitalia
I agree with you that timbre and tone quality in the end of the road can be reduced to physical facts like the velocity the hammer hits the strings, but that doesn't help the pianist and from this it can't be deduced that an optimal, holistic body movement triggered by whatever mental program (like "play from within the keys") is esoteric nonsense.
I just want to make clear, that this is not what I said. On the contrary, I said that things like "the teacher in the video is not wrong when teaching these techniques, because they actually can alter the sound in a desirable way." and "so it is very good advice to be relaxed".
I'm not dismissing the advice or the teaching style as esoteric nonsense. I think it is very good advice. My point was simply, that employing these techniques allows you to more easily achieve the desired tone/timbre by subconsciously playing the correct velocity. But some people argue that they allow you to change the timbre independently from the velocity.
I suspect (though I have no evidence for this and am no expert on this topic) that the velocity of the hammer when it strikes the string is one of the component of what sound is produced. The other component could be the acceleration of the hammer at that instant. For example, in one case: a hammer strikes the string with velocity V, but its acceleration was A1. And, in another case: the same hammer strikes the string with velocity V, but its acceleration was A2. If A1 is significantly higher than A2, will the transfer of energy from hammer to string be different? And, will the resulting tone will be different? That said, given acoustic piano action's physics: is it even possible that the hammer can strike the string with the same velocity but two different accelerations? I am not sure.

In other words, velocity of 0-127 is not a complete model of the interaction between hammer and the string at the point of impact. There has been arguments made that 128 layers of midi is not sufficient for the abstraction of hammer striking string. And, some have proposed a higher level of midi resolution. Some really ridiculously expensive acoustic player systems (such as Steinway Spirio R) boldly advertise 'high resolution'. There are some bold marketing claims that this makes a difference.


Quote
Spirio's high-resolution system uses proprietary software to measure hammer velocity up to 800 times per second at up to 1,020 dynamic levels, as well as proportional pedaling for the damper and soft pedals at up to 100 times per second for as many as 256 pedal positions. As a result of this high-resolution sampling, delicate damper and keyshift pedaling, subtle phrasing, and soft trills are reproduced with great accuracy.

Given all these, there is some theoretical credence to the argument that Digital piano cannot completely model the change in tone with different types of strikes in a real acoustic piano. Whether this is true or not will need some scientific experiment and results. I am not aware of any.


Originally Posted by JoBert
And personally, I also don't have problems with the pianist doing whatever, even greatly exaggerated, movements he/she wants, to achieve the desired results.
I agree with this. Pianist or any other musician can do whatever she/he wants as long it creates a beautiful sound. Indian classical music singers have been criticized for excessive hand movements (such as here by Pandit Bhimsen Joshi - one of my most favorite singers). Some may not like the hand movements, but, no one can argue with the most amazing performance in that video. For the same reason, I have never understood so many objecting to Glenn Gould's excessively low chair, nose 12 inch away from keys, crossing legs at Piano or fidgeting on the chair during concertos when he is not playing.

Osho

Last edited by Osho; 01/07/21 08:39 PM.

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Originally Posted by Osho
Originally Posted by JoBert
Originally Posted by timitalia
I agree with you that timbre and tone quality in the end of the road can be reduced to physical facts like the velocity the hammer hits the strings, but that doesn't help the pianist and from this it can't be deduced that an optimal, holistic body movement triggered by whatever mental program (like "play from within the keys") is esoteric nonsense.
I'm not dismissing the advice or the teaching style as esoteric nonsense. I think it is very good advice. My point was simply, that employing these techniques allows you to more easily achieve the desired tone/timbre by subconsciously playing the correct velocity. But some people argue that they allow you to change the timbre independently from the velocity.
I suspect (though I have no evidence for this and am no expert on this topic) that the velocity of the hammer when it strikes the string is one of the component of what sound is produced. The other component could be the acceleration of the hammer at that instant. For example, in one case: a hammer strikes the string with velocity V, but its acceleration was A1. And, in another case: the same hammer strikes the string with velocity V, but its acceleration was A2. If A1 is significantly higher than A2, will the transfer of energy from hammer to string be different?

That is not how physics work. What it matters it is only:
- momentum (speed and mass, hence just speed, assuming hammers and strings are not changing their masses depending on how a pianist pushes the keys)
- geometry of the impact (obviously, but also not changing, unless the pianist breaks anything laugh )
- mechanical characteristics (such as deformability of strings, hammers and other parts -- also not changing, not in absolute terms, but not changing with other than speed itself: e.g. materials are less deformable and more brittle during high speed impacts)

As a Physicist myself, I cannot think of anything that would allow changing the volume and the timbre of the piano sound separately!!

However, see my previous message: I can think of a variety of psychological and physiological ways to make the perception different, for example two different volumes perceived as identical, like "what is longer" in the Ponzo optical illusion: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ponzo_illusion
A good pianist will probably use many of them. Hard to demonstrate them with sound, but very easy with sight. For another less known, pretty simple and extremely compelling example see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lilac_chaser

What you see is not what is happening, and similar illusions certainly exist for our ears too.

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