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@jeffcat Interesting, I did not know these calhoun experiments

The conclusion of the Calhoun mice experiments boils down to this

Originally Posted by https://fee.org/articles/john-b-calhoun-s-mouse-utopia-experiment-and-reflections-on-the-welfare-state/
By relieving individuals of challenges, which then deprives them of purpose, the welfare state [everything provided for free] is an utterly unnatural and anti-social contrivance. In the mouse experiment, the individuals ultimately lost interest in the things that perpetuate the species. They self-isolated, over-indulged themselves, or turned to violence.

Regarding the self-isolated ones, they were the final remaining mice.

Quote
Dr. Calhoun called these individuals “the beautiful ones.” Their time was devoted solely to grooming, eating and sleeping. They never involved themselves with others, engaged in sex, nor would they fight. All appeared [outwardly] as a beautiful exhibit of the species with keen, alert eyes and a healthy, well-kept body. These mice, however, could not cope with unusual stimuli. Though they looked inquisitive, they were in fact, very stupid.

So I guess you are saying that humanity is also heading down this path?


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Originally Posted by wouter79
So I guess you are saying that humanity is also heading down this path?

We see very clear allegories of the deteriorated behavior in human society. As in we're already well into this path.

It's only a partial model. Of course humanity has a more robust intellect. But if we get side swiped by climate change, there's the possibility that we miss the window of recovery.

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I did not read the experiment, just the summary. As far as I'm concerned, why must the species "be perpetuated?". I personally will have no children, live out my 50 years indulging myself in art and good things, and then die out. If only all 7 billion of us would do the same, but that's not happening unfortunately.

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Originally Posted by iamandrew3
I did not read the experiment, just the summary. As far as I'm concerned, why must the species "be perpetuated?". I personally will have no children, live out my 50 years indulging myself in art and good things, and then die out. If only all 7 billion of us would do the same, but that's not happening unfortunately.


The following only represents the perspective of an impartial 3rd party observer ::

This sounds offensive, but it's hypothetical. No one is judging you. laugh

The description in your post would mean you are a failure as a lifeform. As a limited conscious node, you can not know for certain the decision to be voluntarily celibate is correct. There may be more optimal solutions but you've chosen to merely experience hedonism to no purpose.

The brain's hedonic loop is designed with the definitive purpose of motivating the <obsessive> pursuit of perpetual life.

The Arts in it of itself does not elevate you, you're using it as a narcotic to numb away your inability to propagate. Your indulgence in the arts and good things is virtually identical to a drug addict accepting the street corner + heroin. The only small difference is you live in a better cage.

Again, HYPOTHETICAL.. laugh there is assumed agency, if you lean more towards determinism, then it is what it is. you're correct wherever you fall.

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Originally Posted by jeffcat
The Arts in it of itself does not elevate you, you're using it as a narcotic to numb away your inability to propagate. Your indulgence in the arts and good things is virtually identical to a drug addict accepting the street corner + heroin. The only small difference is you live in a better cage.

Is this from a "university"? They often seem to lay down "iron rules" that have no basis whatsoever in reality, truth or common-sense and could more accurately be described as undiluted clap-trap!

https://www.thefreedictionary.com/claptrap

My appreciation of the arts has very little to do with being a junkie and only a person with little experience of both would suggest anything so detached from fact.

I don't "indulge" in art. I both enjoy and work at art.

I am not driven by an obsessive desire for art,

I do not commit crimes or abdicate my responsibilities because of art,

I do not let others suffer while I "indulge" in art.

I may spend many weeks and months, years even, trying to play Schuberts Impromptu No 4 or Mead Lux-Lewis's Honky Tonk Train Blues only to find I still can't play them to my satisfaction, let alone anyone else's.

In other words I actually CHOOSE to WORK at it. It is not a thing I do for the pleasure I get from the work itself, I am practicing in the HOPE that I shall achieve my objective. There is no guarantee. I have set out on a long difficult path through choice, I am not choosing a quick cheap "mind-numbing" thrill.

Furthermore I do not do that at the expense of the people who love and care for me or who I love and care for.

In fact my motivation for art is completely different to the impulse that compels drug-addicts, many of whom would actually like to be free of their habit.

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Originally Posted by iamandrew3
I did not read the experiment, just the summary. As far as I'm concerned, why must the species "be perpetuated?". I personally will have no children, live out my 50 years indulging myself in art and good things, and then die out. If only all 7 billion of us would do the same, but that's not happening unfortunately.
I agree. The species doesn't have to be perpetuated. I am already 53 without children, and am also indulging in individualistic pleasures, and will eventually die. Nothing wrong with it. Humanity is going to die out anyway. We just don't know if it will happen in maybe 5 years, 5.000 years, or 5 billion years. But it will happen.

Last edited by patH; 01/05/21 05:50 PM.

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And what exactly does all this have to do with pianos? grin


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Originally Posted by Carey
And what exactly does all this have to do with pianos? grin
Apparently, some people find it selfish or hedonistic to play the piano while there are people starving in Africa.
Maybe it is selfish or hedonistic; but that doesn't mean that there's anything wrong with it.

Last edited by patH; 01/05/21 06:26 PM.

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Originally Posted by patH
Maybe. And if, as I assume from an earlier post of yours, you consider "behavioral sink" to be a bad thing, the "first world" is doing the "third world" a favour by exploiting them.

That's called being a neo-nazi. I don't have the authority to say it's wrong though, I can only make the observation.

Originally Posted by patH
I agree. The species doesn't have to be perpetuated. I am already 53 without children, and am also indulging in individualistic pleasures, and will eventually die. Nothing wrong with it. Humanity is going to die out anyway. We just don't know if it will happen in maybe 5 years, 5.000 years, or 5 billion years. But it will happen.

Again, I said in my other post, if someone chooses this, it's OK, but from the perspective of the impartial 3rd party, the refusal to procreate, the fatalism, the hedonism, are all hallmarks of behavioral sink, which is a degenerate state, making such persons sub-human, a lower lifeform. The decisions would be a sickness from the perspective of a normal lifeform.

If you subscribe to determinism and Give up, then those choices are rational, not right, but at least rational. For this arrangement to be Right, it can only be justified if no one was able to do more while also being happy, which isn't the case.

In most cases, the observation is that reality as distorted by hedonism is often the cause of a despondent life. The system of stimuli gives modern humans incorrect expectations while doling out disproportionate reward.

Choosing sex with women should be the easiest damn choice, but when you can DIY, purchase pleasure without procreation, play piano, and eat pizza, well suddenly, biology broke.

Much like the mice having unlimited food. The thought process and behaviors designed around scarcity is distorted until the mice can no longer ascertain which way is up. This is the same as a human never running out of food or pleasure in his own lifespan.

It's not likely the correct behavior, because food and pleasure ARE NOT unlimited in longer time scales, we can run out, an asteroid could hit us, the western world eating so much meat has caused the bulk of green house emissions, a CME could occur any moment, we're statistically over due.

You guys are misreading me, I am not judging you. I am only putting the observation into words.

Last edited by jeffcat; 01/05/21 06:55 PM.
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Originally Posted by jeffcat
Originally Posted by patH
I agree. The species doesn't have to be perpetuated. I am already 53 without children, and am also indulging in individualistic pleasures, and will eventually die. Nothing wrong with it. Humanity is going to die out anyway. We just don't know if it will happen in maybe 5 years, 5.000 years, or 5 billion years. But it will happen.

Again, I said in my other post, if someone chooses this, it's OK, but from the perspective of the impartial 3rd party, the refusal to procreate, the fatalism, the hedonism, are all hallmarks of behavioral sink, which is a degenerate state, making such persons sub-human, a lower lifeform. The decisions would be a sickness from the perspective of a normal lifeform.
This sentence is self-contradictory. By using qualifiers like "sub-human", "lower" or "degenerate" as opposed to "normal", you are admitting that you are not impartial, but are applying value judgments. So you are judging and not just observing. Nothing wrong with it. Just admit it.

And I choose what to do with my time and resources.


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Originally Posted by patH
Originally Posted by jeffcat
Originally Posted by patH
I agree. The species doesn't have to be perpetuated. I am already 53 without children, and am also indulging in individualistic pleasures, and will eventually die. Nothing wrong with it. Humanity is going to die out anyway. We just don't know if it will happen in maybe 5 years, 5.000 years, or 5 billion years. But it will happen.

Again, I said in my other post, if someone chooses this, it's OK, but from the perspective of the impartial 3rd party, the refusal to procreate, the fatalism, the hedonism, are all hallmarks of behavioral sink, which is a degenerate state, making such persons sub-human, a lower lifeform. The decisions would be a sickness from the perspective of a normal lifeform.
This sentence is self-contradictory. By using qualifiers like "sub-human", "lower" or "degenerate" as opposed to "normal", you are admitting that you are not impartial, but are applying value judgments. So you are judging and not just observing. Nothing wrong with it. Just admit it.

And I choose what to do with my time and resources.

Absolutely not, the cognitive dissonance is your own. You are your own adversary. I already said, standby as an impartial observer, these are the words.

There is a value, but no judgement. You want a description for yourself without numbers, that's illogical, A lifeform that has chosen despondency and death is a lower lifeform. There are values applied to make that description, But as I've said, I am not judging you for it.

It's like saying well you got a 23 on a your lifeform test, but that's not a failing grade. Ok, we can attach whatever word you like, but it's a number lower than these lifeforms over here which scored 83.

If you have 1 penny less in your head, you have 1 penny less. I don't hate you or love you for it. Not a judge.

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Originally Posted by jeffcat
Originally Posted by patH
Originally Posted by jeffcat
Originally Posted by patH
I agree. The species doesn't have to be perpetuated. I am already 53 without children, and am also indulging in individualistic pleasures, and will eventually die. Nothing wrong with it. Humanity is going to die out anyway. We just don't know if it will happen in maybe 5 years, 5.000 years, or 5 billion years. But it will happen.

Again, I said in my other post, if someone chooses this, it's OK, but from the perspective of the impartial 3rd party, the refusal to procreate, the fatalism, the hedonism, are all hallmarks of behavioral sink, which is a degenerate state, making such persons sub-human, a lower lifeform. The decisions would be a sickness from the perspective of a normal lifeform.
This sentence is self-contradictory. By using qualifiers like "sub-human", "lower" or "degenerate" as opposed to "normal", you are admitting that you are not impartial, but are applying value judgments. So you are judging and not just observing. Nothing wrong with it. Just admit it.

And I choose what to do with my time and resources.

Absolutely not, the cognitive dissonance is your own. You are your own adversary. I already said, standby as an impartial observer, these are the words.

There is a value, but no judgement. You want a description for yourself without numbers, that's illogical, A lifeform that has chosen despondency and death is a lower lifeform. There are values applied to make that description, But as I've said, I am not judging you for it.

It's like saying well you got a 23 on a your lifeform test, but that's not a failing grade. Ok, we can attach whatever word you like, but it's a number lower than these lifeforms over here which scored 83.

If you have 1 penny less in your head, you have 1 penny less. I don't hate you or love you for it. Not a judge.
It's possible that we have different opinions on what is "judgement". I say: By arbitrarily assigning values, you are making a judgement.

Who said that despondency and death is lower? You did. It's your subjective opinion, just like saying that playing the piano is "lower" than procreating.

To assign values on metaphorical "lifeform tests", you need to establish a scale. And assigning values on this scale is not impartial. It's judgemental.

And as far as I know, I've never had coins implanted in my head.


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Originally Posted by patH
It's possible that we have different opinions on what is "judgement". I say: By arbitrarily assigning values, you are making a judgement.

Who said that despondency and death is lower? You did. It's your subjective opinion, just like saying that playing the piano is "lower" than procreating.

To assign values on metaphorical "lifeform tests", you need to establish a scale. And assigning values on this scale is not impartial. It's judgemental.

And as far as I know, I've never had coins implanted in my head.

They're not arbitrarily assigned values. We share a common language and common comprehension and I've followed the conventions.

You're now disagreeing that a lifeform that CHOOSES death and despondency isn't a lower lifeform.

I can agree that to be one isn't a good or bad thing, no one can make that call. But if you want to jump out of the world's shared comprehension all together, that's just delusional.

It's like saying a broken car isn't broken. 23 on test isn't a failed grade, not having cones in your eye doesn't mean you're colorblind.

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I started to clean up the political nonsense form this topic. The more I look at it, the more I think it DOES NOT BELONG HERE TO BEGIN WITH.

Pianos people. Performing.

Politics are prohibited on the forum. PERIOD.

If you can't resist posting about politics, I can help you resist.

TOPCI CLOSED.


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