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Tony O Offline OP
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Dear forum members,

My first post here and I hope to tap the collective wisdom with my question. A couple of days ago I traded in my Roland HP603 that I had for 2 years and got Dexibell Vivo H10. I have to admit that I did not try one in person before ordering and made a leap of faith based on what I read and saw online and that brings me to my dilemma:

  • I absolutely love the Dexibell sound
  • It looks every bit as awesome in person as it does on the pictures and videos online
  • It has high-quality bi-directional digital USB-audio connection to the computer allowing me to ditch the analog-to-digital Focusrite converter for my on-line lessons


but, unfortunately, I am unable to overcome the issue that the keyboard is just too hard for me to play. I am struggling and find myself unable to produce the right tone in passages that I had no problem playing on HP603.

  • as confirmed by Dexibell support (which is superb, BTW), the touch weight is "... progressively decreasing from 90 grams in the lower keys to 75 grams in the upper keys". My fingers and hands get very tired and I am concerned that I will run into issues with my hands if I keep playing on it.
  • in addition to that, I think my specific instrument must be extra stiff on some keys (or needs to be broken in) as I feel some black keys are extra challenging to play softly (On default settings I keep running into a silent treatment as "escapement" notch activates and the note doesn't play


Here is what I did:
  • Went to a store nearby and played a bunch of acoustic uprights and grands -- none of them felt nearly as hard to play
  • Found another store that had H10 on display. It too felt "heavy" to play, but didn't have the extra "escapement" issue on black keys and felt a bit more manageable (sorry for the flaky description here).
  • Played with key-touch settings / velocity curve which certainly changes how sensitive the keys are to the touch (e.g. by raising the velocity curve offset by 5-10, I was able to eliminate my issue with the "escapement" notch but that definitely comes at the expense of "control" over the tone)


Here is where I would like some thoughts from the community:
  • Should I just keep playing the Dexibell and eventually it will get better? Are my concerns over long-term hand issues exaggerated -- I am in my mid-40s, an adult-beginner and when I am not at the piano keyboard, I am at the computer keyboard coding wink?
  • Should I keep experimenting with the touch Velocity curve settings? Am I missing something there?
  • Should I give up and exchange it for Roland LX-708 or Casio GP-510?


I would also be happy to answer any questions about Dexibell Vivo H10 in case anyone is interested. Thanks in advance for your thoughts and suggestions!
--
Tony

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This keybed will always make you think that you aren't playing to your potential. Exchange it for something you can try and be happy with. Seriously.

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I agree with OU812. The pandemic makes it difficult to try a piano before buying, but my rule is "no try = no buy".

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In theory, fatar tp400 comes in different weighted versions, If you manage to get their weight numbers for their lightest system, you can cut off the counterweight by approximately that amount and it would feel lighter.

Obviously I don't recommend this, I'd just return in this case.

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I will give you my experience testing these models:

Casio GP510
*Lovely action. Sound a bit less nuanced than the competition. Amplification: better than Kawai CA98 and LX708, but not matching the Yamaha CLP685..

Roland LX708
*Didn't find it competitive due to compressed dynamic range, boxy sound. Amplification not good enough compared to the Yamaha. Feel that the LX17 is better in terms of playing experience, even though the tone of the lx708 is more accurate, it has a muddy, boxy sound clarity. Conclusion: worried about the headphones used in the test. Compounded by reports here that specific cans work well with the LX708, however, speakers were disappointing. Couldn't handle Sennheiser HD650 headphones (300 ohm impedance). 3d sound mode helped a bit. Faux TRS system worked ish and did enhance the experience, but not as good as the Avant Grand. Would go back with a headphone amp on a quiet day to retest, but not overly impressed even as a fan of modelling.

Nord Grand
*Very clear sound, white grand sound excellent ("almost as good as the CFX on the Yamaha). Big issue is the dynamic control - - - is not piano like in the way that the Kawai experience delivers through the identical action (RHIII). Still a very nice instrument - - - pleasantly surprised that a small company could make such a product, although the Kawai action really helps.

Kawai CA98
*Though headphones, very nice. Speaker collaboration with Onkyo needs extra work. Grand Feel two action still a bit squishy at bottoming out. Lovely sound and excellent dynamic control. Not matching the CLP685 on sound clarity, but the tone is more detailed than the Yamaha.

Yamaha CLP685
*Biggest surprise, so much better than the CLP585. Sound clarity with Binaural CFX really stunning. Action is quality enough but a tad heavy (something to get used to). Speaker amplification simply on another level compared to other brands. Bosendorfer not Binaural, not as good. Sound less detailed than the Kawai, but more detailed than the Casio.


Would in your situation test the CA99, GP510, CLP785 and with care to amplify headphones externally, the LX708. If mainly playing through headphones, one strategy would be to hook the GP510 to a VST such as Garritan CFX grand. The action is really nice, and the Grand Feel 3 action would have to be a lot better to match the GP510 action. That said, full testing is fully recommended.


Instruments: Current - Kawai MP7SE; Past - Kawai MP7, Yamaha PSR7000
Software: Sibelius 7; Neuratron Photoscore Pro 8
Stand: K&M 18953 Table-style Stage Piano Stand
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Originally Posted by Tony O
Dear forum members,

My first post here and I hope to tap the collective wisdom with my question. A couple of days ago I traded in my Roland HP603 that I had for 2 years and got Dexibell Vivo H10....

...but, unfortunately, I am unable to overcome the issue that the keyboard is just too hard for me to play. I am struggling and find myself unable to produce the right tone in passages that I had no problem playing on HP603.

...in addition to that, I think my specific instrument must be extra stiff on some keys (or needs to be broken in) as I feel some black keys are extra challenging to play softly (On default settings I keep running into a silent treatment as "escapement" notch activates and the note doesn't play

...Should I give up and exchange it for Roland LX-708 or Casio GP-510?

Disappointing for you.

A couple of thoughts...

You say you've had it a "couple of days". Changing from one key action to another may quite reasonably be expected to take longer than that to fully adjust to, especially as you are not an experienced player.

If indeed some keys are heavier than others then that to my mind indicates a fault. A fault certainly worthy of referring to Dexibell's 'superb' support perhaps?

If you do exchange it - this is just my personal opinion of course - I wouldn't give the Roland house room under any circumstances. Their sound engine just doesn't sound like a real piano to me. The Casio is certainly a better bet. However I'd take a Yamaha or Kawai above the Casio.

But maybe it's a tad too soon to give up on the Dexibell. Yes, their key action is at the heavier end. A similar Fatar action in the Nord Piano 4 felt heavy to me, but within the realms of being adaptable to in my opinion. As you are wondering, it may break in a bit. I feel the last two Nord Pianos with Fatar actions I had did loosen up a little bit. But blatantly uneven key weighting is a fault that needs to be addressed.

Good luck anyway!

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Tony,

Sorry to hear of your experience.

Originally Posted by Tony O
I have to admit that I did not try one in person before ordering and made a leap of faith based on what I read and saw online and that brings me to my dilemma:

#1 rule of buying piano: never buy without trying it yourself first with your own fingers.

Originally Posted by Tony O
  • as confirmed by Dexibell support (which is superb, BTW), the touch weight is "... progressively decreasing from 90 grams in the lower keys to 75 grams in the upper keys". My fingers and hands get very tired and I am concerned that I will run into issues with my hands if I keep playing on it.
This is too heavy.. most acoustic grand pianos go from high 50s to low/mid 40s. If this is the spec, you should just return the DP.

Originally Posted by Tony O
  • Went to a store nearby and played a bunch of acoustic uprights and grands -- none of them felt nearly as hard to play

Makes sense, given the spec.

Originally Posted by Tony O
  • Played with key-touch settings / velocity curve which certainly changes how sensitive the keys are to the touch (e.g. by raising the velocity curve offset by 5-10, I was able to eliminate my issue with the "escapement" notch but that definitely comes at the expense of "control" over the tone)
No setting will help you get past the fundamental physical weight issue of the keys.

Originally Posted by Tony O
  • Should I just keep playing the Dexibell and eventually it will get better? Are my concerns over long-term hand issues exaggerated -- I am in my mid-40s, an adult-beginner and when I am not at the piano keyboard, I am at the computer keyboard coding wink?
  • Should I keep experimenting with the touch Velocity curve settings? Am I missing something there?
  • Should I give up and exchange it for Roland LX-708 or Casio GP-510?

You should return Dexibell and exchange it for something else. The 2 models you mentioned are good - but there are also other models from Yamaha and Kawai in this price range that you should look into.

Osho


Mason & Hamlin BB
Kawai Novus NV10 + VST + Genelec 8050B monitors.
Current VST favorites (in the order of preference): Pianoteq 7/VSL Synchron Concert D//Garritan CFX/Embertone Walker D Full

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Tony O Offline OP
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Very grateful for all the feedback. Really helped me reaffirm my decision to return the H10. I shared my experience with Dexibell support and hope that if enough people express the same concern they might reconsider the touch weight in future products.

Thanks for the suggestions of alternatives -- appreciate the insight!

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Originally Posted by Osho
This is too heavy.. most acoustic grand pianos go from high 50s to low/mid 40s. If this is the spec, you should just return the DP.

They're in that range only before the let off, and higher peak resistance.

The typical quoted 50g numbers on acoustics is not directly comparable to the sim action weights.

The simulation from 90-75g is correct. They're not 90 or 75 along the whole curve.

I'd prefer it to be lighter too, but that's because I'm super lazy. Their engineering is sound given their simulation goal.

Last edited by jeffcat; 12/29/20 09:53 AM.
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Originally Posted by jeffcat
Originally Posted by Osho
This is too heavy.. most acoustic grand pianos go from high 50s to low/mid 40s. If this is the spec, you should just return the DP.

They're in that range only before the let off, and higher peak resistance.

The typical quoted 50g numbers on acoustics is not directly comparable to the sim action weights.

That's interesting. But, isn't the weight just when you start pressing the keys down most important?

Osho


Mason & Hamlin BB
Kawai Novus NV10 + VST + Genelec 8050B monitors.
Current VST favorites (in the order of preference): Pianoteq 7/VSL Synchron Concert D//Garritan CFX/Embertone Walker D Full

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Have you moved forwarded with your decision of returning the Vivo H10?

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Originally Posted by Osho
That's interesting. But, isn't the weight just when you start pressing the keys down most important?

Osho

The Whole Travel is important. the area under the curve represents the total energy required. So you can have a high peak but still end up with a lower total. It depends on their simulation goals.

Last edited by jeffcat; 01/05/21 10:25 AM.
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Tony O Offline OP
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Originally Posted by DPAfficionado
Have you moved forwarded with your decision of returning the Vivo H10?
Yes, I exchanged it for Roland 708. My usage is 99% headphones and I am very happy with the fact that I stopped fussing over action weights and can focus on practicing :-)

Again, thanks to everyone who chimed in for feedback and support!

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Seems that random stiff black keys are almost "normal" with Fatar.

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One thought:

Buy one of those Dexibel sound modules, to go with the LX708

Last edited by Doug M.; 07/17/21 01:57 PM.

Instruments: Current - Kawai MP7SE; Past - Kawai MP7, Yamaha PSR7000
Software: Sibelius 7; Neuratron Photoscore Pro 8
Stand: K&M 18953 Table-style Stage Piano Stand

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