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There is some confusion on the Social distance safety issue.

The 6 feet they stipulate only protects you from large projectile droplets. But it does not stop covid micro-droplet cloud, because these float in place and is circulated by air conditioning. It can get into your eyes, and infect you.

To avoid micro-droplets, you need ~30 feet social distancing, making most indoor co-use impossible. They've stuck with the 6 feet number to keep civilization functional. It certainly helps but it does not prevent infection in closed spaces.

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Originally Posted by jeffcat
There is some confusion on the Social distance safety issue.

The 6 feet they stipulate only protects you from large projectile droplets. But it does not stop covid micro-droplet cloud, because these float in place and is circulated by air conditioning. It can get into your eyes, and infect you.

To avoid micro-droplets, you need ~30 feet social distancing, making most indoor co-use impossible. They've stuck with the 6 feet number to keep civilization functional. It certainly helps but it does not prevent infection in closed spaces.

This issue is fine if the premises have good HVAC systems. And most already do. My school's performance department has been open since the fall with zero outbreaks - and the city is a hot zone.



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Originally Posted by pianoloverus
Nice to see you back at PW, Pogorelich!
Ditto - and also pleased to hear that you are wrapping up your grad studies. Congratulations thumb thumb


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Originally Posted by Carey
Originally Posted by pianoloverus
Nice to see you back at PW, Pogorelich!
Ditto - and also pleased to hear that you are wrapping up your grad studies. Congratulations thumb thumb
Nice to see you both, too! And don't say that until I'm actually done, haha! My thesis still has to go under more revisions from the department... Not sure how long that will take... So far it's taking ages!



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Originally Posted by jeffcat
There is some confusion on the Social distance safety issue.

The 6 feet they stipulate only protects you from large projectile droplets. But it does not stop covid micro-droplet cloud, because these float in place and is circulated by air conditioning. It can get into your eyes, and infect you.

To avoid micro-droplets, you need ~30 feet social distancing, making most indoor co-use impossible. They've stuck with the 6 feet number to keep civilization functional. It certainly helps but it does not prevent infection in closed spaces.

This is definitely true. I saw the report demonstrating how the micro-droplets travel much further than the requisite 6 feet required now. Risks can be mitigated greatly by the judicious use of N95 masks or better if you can get hold of them. The blueprint in my mind for safe concert-going is chamber orchestras for the time being (small ensembles IOW) with member spaced safely apart and wearing masks (WW and brass with specially designed masks with small openings for instruments mouthpieces); audiences spaced every other seat and masked. Unfortunately economics do not permit full orchestral performances with half-filled hall. Orchestras were operating in the red before the pandemic anyway, surviving only with grants and government monies.


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Check this video to understand microdroplets. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=piCWFgwysu0

Covid is basically unstoppable, you just have to Not Be There as much as possible.

Ventilation systems make it WORSE, it turns the enclosure into covid-Soup. This is the proven case when they first reported on Air conditioners in restaurants spreading covid.

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Originally Posted by jeffcat
Check this video to understand microdroplets. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=piCWFgwysu0

Covid is basically unstoppable, you just have to Not Be There as much as possible.

Ventilation systems make it WORSE, it turns the enclosure into covid-Soup. This is the proven case when they first reported on Air conditioners in restaurants spreading covid.

Let's not derail the thread any more, but honestly, if this was how people generally got infected with Covid, a whooooooole lot more people would be sick. My school would've had hundreds of clusters. Again, it has been zero - and that's zero people getting infected within the school. And we have choirs, orchestras, opera even, with safety precautions. How do I know precautions worked? There have been Covid cases who got it at parties and came to school while contagious. But did not pass it on to anyone else at school. Ventilation systems such as HVAC clean the air and make it a lot safer, actually. I trust our medical department who advised our campus on how to function safely. That's all I'll say.



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Originally Posted by Pogorelich.
Originally Posted by Carey
Originally Posted by pianoloverus
Nice to see you back at PW, Pogorelich!
Ditto - and also pleased to hear that you are wrapping up your grad studies. Congratulations thumb thumb
Nice to see you both, too! And don't say that until I'm actually done, haha! My thesis still has to go under more revisions from the department... Not sure how long that will take... So far it's taking ages!
Can you tell us what your thesis is about and what is on your doctoral recital program?

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Originally Posted by jeffcat
Check this video to understand microdroplets. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=piCWFgwysu0

Covid is basically unstoppable, you just have to Not Be There as much as possible.

Ventilation systems make it WORSE, it turns the enclosure into covid-Soup. This is the proven case when they first reported on Air conditioners in restaurants spreading covid.

I have been involved in computer simulation of a covid-laden sneeze. The larger droplets, which contain most of the viral load, are heavy and fall to the ground relatively soon. Of course smaller droplets travel further, possibly much further, but they carry less viral load. In any case, concert audiences would be wearing masks, which would catch most of the larger droplets.

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Originally Posted by pianoloverus
Originally Posted by Pogorelich.
Originally Posted by Carey
Originally Posted by pianoloverus
Nice to see you back at PW, Pogorelich!
Ditto - and also pleased to hear that you are wrapping up your grad studies. Congratulations thumb thumb
Nice to see you both, too! And don't say that until I'm actually done, haha! My thesis still has to go under more revisions from the department... Not sure how long that will take... So far it's taking ages!
Can you tell us what your thesis is about and what is on your doctoral recital program?

My thesis was on Rachmaninov's first sonata and referential meaning (it's finished but needs the thumbs up from my advisor). That's what I did in isolation this summer, ha! As for the recital, it will likely be some pieces by Vladiguerov and Nenov's Miniatures, plus Brahms op. 117 & 119. Just started 117 and I'm in love!



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Originally Posted by Pogorelich
My thesis was on Rachmaninov's first sonata and referential meaning (it's finished but needs the thumbs up from my advisor). That's what I did in isolation this summer, ha! As for the recital, it will likely be some pieces by Vladiguerov and Nenov's Miniatures, plus Brahms op. 117 & 119. Just started 117 and I'm in love!
Does "referential meaning" mean there are various references to things in the sonata?

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Originally Posted by pianoloverus
Originally Posted by Pogorelich
My thesis was on Rachmaninov's first sonata and referential meaning (it's finished but needs the thumbs up from my advisor). That's what I did in isolation this summer, ha! As for the recital, it will likely be some pieces by Vladiguerov and Nenov's Miniatures, plus Brahms op. 117 & 119. Just started 117 and I'm in love!
Does "referential meaning" mean there are various references to things in the sonata?
Yup! I don't want to reveal too much/jinx it until it's approved 😄



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This crisis is difficult for many categories of people, of which artists in general, but not only and it does sometime lead to dramatic individual situations. But taking a large step back, there has been significantly worse crisis in the past and so we will eventually get at the end of this one too.

I think we have forgotten in the last 50 years what is a major disruption.

I have no doubts we will get back to recitals. People need and like to get together, that is why there are concert halls and theatres. Maybe certain things will not be exactly as they were before, but societies are changing all the time. Thats how we make progress. And yes maybe some people will change jobs. Less travel can be a good thing too, and maybe more digitally transmitted concerts is what is in front of us, but i dont think physical concerts will ever disappear. So i am on a rather optimistic trend !

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Originally Posted by Sidokar
This crisis is difficult for many categories of people, of which artists in general, but not only and it does sometime lead to dramatic individual situations. But taking a large step back, there has been significantly worse crisis in the past and so we will eventually get at the end of this one too.

I think we have forgotten in the last 50 years what is a major disruption.

I have no doubts we will get back to recitals. People need and like to get together, that is why there are concert halls and theatres. Maybe certain things will not be exactly as they were before, but societies are changing all the time. Thats how we make progress. And yes maybe some people will change jobs. Less travel can be a good thing too, and maybe more digitally transmitted concerts is what is in front of us, but i dont think physical concerts will ever disappear. So i am on a rather optimistic trend !

We must define what the "new" physical concert will be going forward. Will it be Mahler's Symphony of a Thousand in Royal Albert Hall (capacity 5200+)? No, never. Gigantic Mahler productions were on the way out before the pandemic. The cost was just prohibitive. It's not just your garden variety symphony orchestral concert that is being redefined by this virus, but operas and ballets as well. Soloists jetting the world to concert venues I think are going to have to rethink this kind of a lifestyle. I don't think we're ever going to be comfortable in large tightly packed crowds ever again. This virus is here to stay and the vaccine is a tool in the arsenal but if anyone thinks the vaccine is going to get us back to the way things were, I sincerely believe they are fooling themselves. It's not just that this particular virus can get you deathly sick; it's also that even mild cases can bring on long-lasting devastating symptoms that can go on--we know now months and possibly years after official recovery. If you read some of the stories of people who are referred to as "long haulers" you would conclude that life post-COVID can actually be worse than dying from it. I don't try to sound melodramatic about this, I just repeat what hundreds of people have said about their personal experiences with life living with crushing fatigue, lung damage, brain fog, heart and kidney damage and roughly 200 catalogued symptoms so far that people who have had it are suffering from. I don't see how we are going to get back into large concert halls knowing that someone carrying the virus could infect a large swath of people in their vicinity.


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Originally Posted by J Joe Townley
We must define what the "new" physical concert will be going forward. Will it be Mahler's Symphony of a Thousand in Royal Albert Hall (capacity 5200+)? No, never. Gigantic Mahler productions were on the way out before the pandemic. The cost was just prohibitive. It's not just your garden variety symphony orchestral concert that is being redefined by this virus, but operas and ballets as well. Soloists jetting the world to concert venues I think are going to have to rethink this kind of a lifestyle. I don't think we're ever going to be comfortable in large tightly packed crowds ever again. This virus is here to stay and the vaccine is a tool in the arsenal but if anyone thinks the vaccine is going to get us back to the way things were, I sincerely believe they are fooling themselves. It's not just that this particular virus can get you deathly sick; it's also that even mild cases can bring on long-lasting devastating symptoms that can go on--we know now months and possibly years after official recovery. If you read some of the stories of people who are referred to as "long haulers" you would conclude that life post-COVID can actually be worse than dying from it. I don't try to sound melodramatic about this, I just repeat what hundreds of people have said about their personal experiences with life living with crushing fatigue, lung damage, brain fog, heart and kidney damage and roughly 200 catalogued symptoms so far that people who have had it are suffering from. I don't see how we are going to get back into large concert halls knowing that someone carrying the virus could infect a large swath of people in their vicinity.

I agree. I am recovering, and I am already terrified that this fatigue will be with me for a very long time, that I will never be able to run, practice for hours, perform, or sing in choirs again- speaking is already exhausting enough.

I think back to the changes that were imposed on music post WW1- the move away from the gigantic orchestras of Mahler and Strauss towards neoclassicism, chamber music and small chamber orchestras, and shorter and smaller works. This was inspired by financial necessity, scarcity of musicians, and an overall exhaustion with heaving-storming, hyper-romantic sound that suddenly spoke less to people after the harsh realities of death and destruction. We are probably heading towards something similar.

But I am also a little pessimistic. I don't think Covid is another major disruption that we will overcome and be able to resume life as normal afterwards; I think it's a symptom of a much larger, much more serious problem, and the coming years might make it look like a breeze in comparison to what's awaiting us. Climate change and aggressive, industrial animal farming are already leading to the more frequent spreading and mutation of viruses. We have locked in so much warming that we have no idea which inevitable feedback reactions are on the way and what they will look like. We have already coldly condemned more than half the world (the half least responsible for the problem) to a death sentence that they're already experiencing by giving up on 1C and accepting 2C or even 4C of warming as the goal (which is now completely unrealistic and inconsistent with the world's actions). Because we still have time. We have our air conditioners and our bottled water, and from behind our closed windows and our flat screens it doesn't feel like much is happening anyway.

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I enjoy these forums, in part, as a way to escape from the real world, as there is little joy in reality. Everything has changed and I worry continually what ‘normal’ Will be like. Will there be piano lessons? Piano camp? Concerts? Even the dreaded grocery shopping? I have left my house exactly twice since last Hsn— both essential trips.

I come here to escape the real world not to discuss whether it will never be better or whether we can really avoid the infection. These forums are no longer a needed escape from reality, so I think I need to avoid them. I don’t expect a reply or agreement; I am obviously in the minority. So carry on— but I won’t. Life is depressing enough without looking for more.


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First I think we have all forgotten what it is to leave with danger around. Of course the covid can have severe consequences. The last large epidemic, the influenza, caused around 50 millions dead. Before that there has been numerous and regular plague or cholera epidemics. We are quite far from that. Not speaking of the frequent and very long wars that span our history. And we have managed to survive and still build our civilization. The covid is just another, all in all not an historically major event even if temporarily quite disruptive (by our own choice BTW).

It is too early to say how the world will evolve, whether the vaccine is efficient or not. Will we go back to our previous life or not is impossible to say at this time. So one can choose to be pessimistic and drawn into depression or choose to be optimistic. We have to adapt to whatever will be the future because we have no other choice. I personally dont think it will be as dark as some describe but it may not be what it used to be either. I trust human imagination, creativeness and resourcefullness to find solutions.

It wont be worse nor better, just different. For some it can be painfull while it will be better for others. You have the take the best you can of out what the world can offer you.

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Originally Posted by J Joe Townley
Originally Posted by Sidokar
This crisis is difficult for many categories of people, of which artists in general, but not only and it does sometime lead to dramatic individual situations. But taking a large step back, there has been significantly worse crisis in the past and so we will eventually get at the end of this one too.

I think we have forgotten in the last 50 years what is a major disruption.

I have no doubts we will get back to recitals. People need and like to get together, that is why there are concert halls and theatres. Maybe certain things will not be exactly as they were before, but societies are changing all the time. Thats how we make progress. And yes maybe some people will change jobs. Less travel can be a good thing too, and maybe more digitally transmitted concerts is what is in front of us, but i dont think physical concerts will ever disappear. So i am on a rather optimistic trend !

We must define what the "new" physical concert will be going forward. Will it be Mahler's Symphony of a Thousand in Royal Albert Hall (capacity 5200+)? No, never. Gigantic Mahler productions were on the way out before the pandemic. The cost was just prohibitive. It's not just your garden variety symphony orchestral concert that is being redefined by this virus, but operas and ballets as well. Soloists jetting the world to concert venues I think are going to have to rethink this kind of a lifestyle. I don't think we're ever going to be comfortable in large tightly packed crowds ever again. This virus is here to stay and the vaccine is a tool in the arsenal but if anyone thinks the vaccine is going to get us back to the way things were, I sincerely believe they are fooling themselves. It's not just that this particular virus can get you deathly sick; it's also that even mild cases can bring on long-lasting devastating symptoms that can go on--we know now months and possibly years after official recovery. If you read some of the stories of people who are referred to as "long haulers" you would conclude that life post-COVID can actually be worse than dying from it. I don't try to sound melodramatic about this, I just repeat what hundreds of people have said about their personal experiences with life living with crushing fatigue, lung damage, brain fog, heart and kidney damage and roughly 200 catalogued symptoms so far that people who have had it are suffering from. I don't see how we are going to get back into large concert halls knowing that someone carrying the virus could infect a large swath of people in their vicinity.

I think you're wrong. Pandemics don't last, and this won't last either. I am 100% sure we will go back to feeling comfortable with crowds. It may take 2-3 years (maybe less), but it will happen. That's not just my opinion - if you listen to the docs (even Fauci), they say absolutely we will get past this. So... I'd chill out a little bit!



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Originally Posted by Pogorelich.
Originally Posted by J Joe Townley
Originally Posted by Sidokar
This crisis is difficult for many categories of people, of which artists in general, but not only and it does sometime lead to dramatic individual situations. But taking a large step back, there has been significantly worse crisis in the past and so we will eventually get at the end of this one too.

I think we have forgotten in the last 50 years what is a major disruption.

I have no doubts we will get back to recitals. People need and like to get together, that is why there are concert halls and theatres. Maybe certain things will not be exactly as they were before, but societies are changing all the time. Thats how we make progress. And yes maybe some people will change jobs. Less travel can be a good thing too, and maybe more digitally transmitted concerts is what is in front of us, but i dont think physical concerts will ever disappear. So i am on a rather optimistic trend !

We must define what the "new" physical concert will be going forward. Will it be Mahler's Symphony of a Thousand in Royal Albert Hall (capacity 5200+)? No, never. Gigantic Mahler productions were on the way out before the pandemic. The cost was just prohibitive. It's not just your garden variety symphony orchestral concert that is being redefined by this virus, but operas and ballets as well. Soloists jetting the world to concert venues I think are going to have to rethink this kind of a lifestyle. I don't think we're ever going to be comfortable in large tightly packed crowds ever again. This virus is here to stay and the vaccine is a tool in the arsenal but if anyone thinks the vaccine is going to get us back to the way things were, I sincerely believe they are fooling themselves. It's not just that this particular virus can get you deathly sick; it's also that even mild cases can bring on long-lasting devastating symptoms that can go on--we know now months and possibly years after official recovery. If you read some of the stories of people who are referred to as "long haulers" you would conclude that life post-COVID can actually be worse than dying from it. I don't try to sound melodramatic about this, I just repeat what hundreds of people have said about their personal experiences with life living with crushing fatigue, lung damage, brain fog, heart and kidney damage and roughly 200 catalogued symptoms so far that people who have had it are suffering from. I don't see how we are going to get back into large concert halls knowing that someone carrying the virus could infect a large swath of people in their vicinity.

I think you're wrong. Pandemics don't last, and this won't last either. I am 100% sure we will go back to feeling comfortable with crowds. It may take 2-3 years (maybe less), but it will happen. That's not just my opinion - if you listen to the docs (even Fauci), they say absolutely we will get past this. So... I'd chill out a little bit!

I wish I could be as optimistic as you, Pogorelich. Being older, I have acquired some wisdom over the years, and that wisdom tells me that rarely when there is good or bad outcome, that the good outcome will prevail. I think back to Trump saying at the beginning, "One day--it's like a miracle--it will disappear like magic." Of course we know better now. I think you're expressing that same sunny optimism Trump did. The reality is this virus will never disappear. Michael Osterholm, another prominent epidemiologist has assured us that the Coronavirus will become seasonal just like the flu. At some point, like the flu though, it will mutate and the vaccine everyone is pinning their hopes on will likely not be effective anymore. This virus is similar to H1N1 in that it will be seasonal and mutating. Unlike the H1N1 however this virus is much more deadly and the aftereffects much more devastating.

Try to imagine yourself in a packed concert hall with someone just inches away from you. You've been vaccinated, but have the people in your immediate vicinity? Someone near you sneezes in the middle of a Beethoven symphony. Can you be perfectly comfortable and certain you are fully protected and that there is no chance you will get Coronavirus?


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Originally Posted by J Joe Townley
Originally Posted by Pogorelich.
Originally Posted by J Joe Townley
Originally Posted by Sidokar
This crisis is difficult for many categories of people, of which artists in general, but not only and it does sometime lead to dramatic individual situations. But taking a large step back, there has been significantly worse crisis in the past and so we will eventually get at the end of this one too.

I think we have forgotten in the last 50 years what is a major disruption.

I have no doubts we will get back to recitals. People need and like to get together, that is why there are concert halls and theatres. Maybe certain things will not be exactly as they were before, but societies are changing all the time. Thats how we make progress. And yes maybe some people will change jobs. Less travel can be a good thing too, and maybe more digitally transmitted concerts is what is in front of us, but i dont think physical concerts will ever disappear. So i am on a rather optimistic trend !

We must define what the "new" physical concert will be going forward. Will it be Mahler's Symphony of a Thousand in Royal Albert Hall (capacity 5200+)? No, never. Gigantic Mahler productions were on the way out before the pandemic. The cost was just prohibitive. It's not just your garden variety symphony orchestral concert that is being redefined by this virus, but operas and ballets as well. Soloists jetting the world to concert venues I think are going to have to rethink this kind of a lifestyle. I don't think we're ever going to be comfortable in large tightly packed crowds ever again. This virus is here to stay and the vaccine is a tool in the arsenal but if anyone thinks the vaccine is going to get us back to the way things were, I sincerely believe they are fooling themselves. It's not just that this particular virus can get you deathly sick; it's also that even mild cases can bring on long-lasting devastating symptoms that can go on--we know now months and possibly years after official recovery. If you read some of the stories of people who are referred to as "long haulers" you would conclude that life post-COVID can actually be worse than dying from it. I don't try to sound melodramatic about this, I just repeat what hundreds of people have said about their personal experiences with life living with crushing fatigue, lung damage, brain fog, heart and kidney damage and roughly 200 catalogued symptoms so far that people who have had it are suffering from. I don't see how we are going to get back into large concert halls knowing that someone carrying the virus could infect a large swath of people in their vicinity.

I think you're wrong. Pandemics don't last, and this won't last either. I am 100% sure we will go back to feeling comfortable with crowds. It may take 2-3 years (maybe less), but it will happen. That's not just my opinion - if you listen to the docs (even Fauci), they say absolutely we will get past this. So... I'd chill out a little bit!

I wish I could be as optimistic as you, Pogorelich. Being older, I have acquired some wisdom over the years, and that wisdom tells me that rarely when there is good or bad outcome, that the good outcome will prevail. I think back to Trump saying at the beginning, "One day--it's like a miracle--it will disappear like magic." Of course we know better now. I think you're expressing that same sunny optimism Trump did. The reality is this virus will never disappear. Michael Osterholm, another prominent epidemiologist has assured us that the Coronavirus will become seasonal just like the flu. At some point, like the flu though, it will mutate and the vaccine everyone is pinning their hopes on will likely not be effective anymore. This virus is similar to H1N1 in that it will be seasonal and mutating. Unlike the H1N1 however this virus is much more deadly and the aftereffects much more devastating.

Try to imagine yourself in a packed concert hall with someone just inches away from you. You've been vaccinated, but have the people in your immediate vicinity? Someone near you sneezes in the middle of a Beethoven symphony. Can you be perfectly comfortable and certain you are fully protected and that there is no chance you will get Coronavirus?

Yup, I can see that day coming and not worrying about it. Also, I never liked people assuming I wasn't as intelligent as they are because I'm young and lack "experience". I may not have as much experience as someone twice my age (or perhaps my experience has been so packed that it's actually equivalent - how do you know?), but I do have the ability to draw informed conclusions and think critically. You probably didn't directly imply it, but it's there. Sure, Covid will be here likely forever, but every single doctor I've heard talk about it has said it will stop being such a threat to us eventually. Whether it's a vaccine, treatments, mutation or all three. Don't forget science is always evolving and we will have a much better understanding of how to treat it too.



"The eyes can mislead, the smile can lie, but the shoes always tell the truth."
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