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A mixed bag of 4 questions
#3053336 12/05/20 04:13 PM
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1. What is meant by 'learning' 2 bars a day? Does that mean in 5 days I should be able to play 10 bars all together and in a row? Or does it mean you can play the 2 bars after a day but still takes days to develop muscle memory and polish?

2. Is it common that you can learn 2 bars a day but then connecting is a whole new learning process. Example, Monday I learn bars 1,2, Tuesday I learn bars 3,4, then Wednesday playing bars 1,2,3,4 is a whole new game.

3. While I'm studying pop one of my favorites arraignments is Variation on Canon D by David Lanz. In another post a member said it was intermediate and I have started on it I am loving it and making great progress. If anyone is familiar with this piece could you let me know your thoughts on it or any advice on learning it?

4. Chopin Prelude No 4 in E minor, Op 28. I know this is one very technical advanced piece what makes this piece so complex but on paper it doesnt look like the usual crazy classical?

Thanks!

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Re: A mixed bag of 4 questions
Sebs #3053349 12/05/20 04:49 PM
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Not an answer to your question, but if you can only learn two bars in a day the piece is much too advanced for you at this point.

Re: A mixed bag of 4 questions
Sebs #3053350 12/05/20 04:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Sebs
3. While I'm studying pop one of my favorites arraignments is Variation on Canon D by David Lanz. In another post a member said it was intermediate and I have started on it I am loving it and making great progress. If anyone is familiar with this piece could you let me know your thoughts on it or any advice on learning it?

I don't know if I commented on this piece in a thread of yours or not, but I have always really liked this arrangement... as I think of it, it might have been me that said it was intermediate.... :P

Anyway, I love this piece and it's very compelling, but it's also sort of meandering, and because it's all variations, it can be very easy to get lost in the piece.

So I don't think this piece is conducive to a one-bar-at-a-time approach... I think you'd be better off to go through the score and analyze it and make rehearsal marks/sections (section A, B) and then find sections which are a slight variation (so you would get A2, B2 etc) and then practice those -- i.e., practice section A, then section A2... So you're not necessarily practicing the piece in order from beginning to end this way.

Also, another reason not do the one-bar-at-a-time approach is because this piece is approximately 230 measures long and you will totally get lost if you take that approach. Wait, by bar, do you mean "measure" or one line of music, which might have 3-4 measures in it?

In any case, whether you're describing approaching the piece measure-by-measure or line-by-line, I recommend that you do neither and instead approach it based on musical sections. IOW, a particular melody line or musical theme is not going to break in pre-set sections (i.e. one measure or one line).

But because this is a canon, you should fine that every 4 or 8 measures makes for a more natural section-grouping...

Ok, I'll stop there, I'm not sure if this is helpful or not! : D

Last edited by ShiroKuro; 12/05/20 04:52 PM.

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Re: A mixed bag of 4 questions
Sebs #3053358 12/05/20 05:01 PM
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The prelude 4 opus 28 is not super difficult, all things relative. It is about RCM level 7 or 8. Far less difficult than number 12, 16 or 24.

Re: A mixed bag of 4 questions
ShiroKuro #3053384 12/05/20 06:04 PM
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Originally Posted by ShiroKuro
Originally Posted by Sebs
3. While I'm studying pop one of my favorites arraignments is Variation on Canon D by David Lanz. In another post a member said it was intermediate and I have started on it I am loving it and making great progress. If anyone is familiar with this piece could you let me know your thoughts on it or any advice on learning it?

I don't know if I commented on this piece in a thread of yours or not, but I have always really liked this arrangement... as I think of it, it might have been me that said it was intermediate.... :P

But because this is a canon, you should fine that every 4 or 8 measures makes for a more natural section-grouping...
Yes, I was quoting you from that we had. Good point on the every 4-8 I will try that out.

Originally Posted by pianoloverus
Not an answer to your question, but if you can only learn two bars in a day the piece is much too advanced for you at this point.
How many bars do you learn a day in a typical "at level" piece?

Originally Posted by Sidokar
The prelude 4 opus 28 is not super difficult, all things relative. It is about RCM level 7 or 8. Far less difficult than number 12, 16 or 24.
Got it. While still challenging it's on of his easier pieces when compared to his other works? I recall someone once sayings it's on his harder pieces and I couldn't make sense of it cause I can easily look at his other pieces and see how they are clearly very tough.

Re: A mixed bag of 4 questions
Sebs #3053388 12/05/20 06:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Sebs
Originally Posted by Sidokar
The prelude 4 opus 28 is not super difficult, all things relative. It is about RCM level 7 or 8. Far less difficult than number 12, 16 or 24.
Got it. While still challenging it's on of his easier pieces when compared to his other works? I recall someone once sayings it's on his harder pieces and I couldn't make sense of it cause I can easily look at his other pieces and see how they are clearly very tough.
Op.28/4 is indeed Chopin's easiest piece, at ABRSM grade 5 (RCM level 6/7).

The next easiest would be Op.28/6, two levels higher.


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Re: A mixed bag of 4 questions
Sebs #3053391 12/05/20 06:33 PM
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How many bars do you learn a day in a typical "at level" piece?

Not pianoloverus, but...

So, I don't really track based on how many measures I play... but usually if I can't sightreading (slowly of course) through the first one to two pages, I view that piece as challenging... Also, what do you mean by "learn"? I might be playing through a huge chunk of music, but not at tempo, for example.... Or I might be playing through the whole piece not feel like it's ready to record or share with someone. But I generally am working on a lot of music at once. Right now I have two pieces close to being ready to record, two pieces that I can't play all the way to the end, two easy Christmas pieces I'm getting back into my fingers, plus sightreading.

Anyway, back to your question about the number of measures.... Here's a piece I've just started practicing. I started it on Thursday. I worked on the first 2.5 pages (which is about 46 measures of music) on Thursday, and then on Friday I worked on that much and added the next section where the RH starts to play 16th notes. So that's moving through a lot of music pretty quickly, but the piece is super repetitive... It would take me longer to work through Lanz's Variations if I had never seen the score before.

Anyway, here's the piece, it's Nocturne in a Minor, one of Chad Lawson's "in the style of Chopin" piece (if you like the E minor prelude, etc. I bet you'll like this piece! Also, much easier than a real Chopin nocturne, yay! grin



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Re: A mixed bag of 4 questions
ShiroKuro #3053415 12/05/20 07:25 PM
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Originally Posted by ShiroKuro
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How many bars do you learn a day in a typical "at level" piece?

Not pianoloverus, but...

So, I don't really track based on how many measures I play... but usually if I can't sightreading (slowly of course) through the first one to two pages, I view that piece as challenging... Also, what do you mean by "learn"? I might be playing through a huge chunk of music, but not at tempo, for example.... Or I might be playing through the whole piece not feel like it's ready to record or share with someone. But I generally am working on a lot of music at once. Right now I have two pieces close to being ready to record, two pieces that I can't play all the way to the end, two easy Christmas pieces I'm getting back into my fingers, plus sightreading.

Anyway, back to your question about the number of measures.... Here's a piece I've just started practicing. I started it on Thursday. I worked on the first 2.5 pages (which is about 46 measures of music) on Thursday, and then on Friday I worked on that much and added the next section where the RH starts to play 16th notes. So that's moving through a lot of music pretty quickly, but the piece is super repetitive... It would take me longer to work through Lanz's Variations if I had never seen the score before.

Anyway, here's the piece, it's Nocturne in a Minor, one of Chad Lawson's "in the style of Chopin" piece (if you like the E minor prelude, etc. I bet you'll like this piece! Also, much easier than a real Chopin nocturne, yay! grin

I like that piece a lot!

I often hear you should be able to learn xyz in x days. Does learn mean polished? Does learn mean you can play it way below tempo, etc. I know there's no exact method I'm just wondering what is meant. Wow 2.5 pages/46 bars in a few days. I don't even think I could do that with the even easiest of any pieces. I was always reading small chunks sounds like you and pianolorverus say otherwise or really depends on the score?

Re: A mixed bag of 4 questions
Sebs #3053424 12/05/20 07:49 PM
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So in some ways it does depend on the score... But also I think I am a very strong reader. So I'm not memorizing 46 measures in a day, I'm reading it..... Also, it's not really 46 measures.... It's probably 4 chords, 3 patterns, repeated 4 times....

The Nocturne I linked is maybe more repetitive than a lot of music I play, but I analyze everything I play, and usually write on the score. So when I get to the middle of page three in any given piece, I recognize that it's mostly the same as what appeared earlier etc. for XYZ...

Another thing I'll do very early on in learning a piece (sometimes it's the first thing I do to see if the piece is doable) is try to play HS (usually only the right hand) as close to at tempo as possible. This helps me see how hard it is to read, how interlinked the LH and RH parts are (for example, it's kind of hard/pointless to practice that nocturne HS), and also it helps me *hear* the piece... a lot of times, the music doesn't come alive until you get it to a certain tempo. So even if I'm practicing it way below that tempo, I want to have had the experience of feeling it at that tempo ... Then when I get stuck (say I'm playing HT, super slow and get lost in the notes) I can go back to HS (RH/melody) and remind myself of what's going on.

But I don't know how helpful any of this is... I've been playing for kind of a long time now, so I may not be the best person to compare notes with (har, pun intended)


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Re: A mixed bag of 4 questions
ShiroKuro #3053439 12/05/20 08:37 PM
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Originally Posted by ShiroKuro
So in some ways it does depend on the score... But also I think I am a very strong reader. So I'm not memorizing 46 measures in a day, I'm reading it..... Also, it's not really 46 measures.... It's probably 4 chords, 3 patterns, repeated 4 times....

The Nocturne I linked is maybe more repetitive than a lot of music I play, but I analyze everything I play, and usually write on the score. So when I get to the middle of page three in any given piece, I recognize that it's mostly the same as what appeared earlier etc. for XYZ...

Another thing I'll do very early on in learning a piece (sometimes it's the first thing I do to see if the piece is doable) is try to play HS (usually only the right hand) as close to at tempo as possible. This helps me see how hard it is to read, how interlinked the LH and RH parts are (for example, it's kind of hard/pointless to practice that nocturne HS), and also it helps me *hear* the piece... a lot of times, the music doesn't come alive until you get it to a certain tempo. So even if I'm practicing it way below that tempo, I want to have had the experience of feeling it at that tempo ... Then when I get stuck (say I'm playing HT, super slow and get lost in the notes) I can go back to HS (RH/melody) and remind myself of what's going on.

But I don't know how helpful any of this is... I've been playing for kind of a long time now, so I may not be the best person to compare notes with (har, pun intended)

It's all helpful. I like hearing methods and tips. I think given my level I'll have to stick with small chunks and if I'm enjoying the learning and making progress I'll keep at it. I have had a piece that was way too hard and learned to call it quits. I believe variation I can learn and play it one day. Maybe it'll take me long but if it gets me to play it's helping me learn.

Re: A mixed bag of 4 questions
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I think that the limiting of learning to a specific number of measures per day might be very productive. Rather, I would suggest working on phrases, regardless of how many measures a phrase may cover. That, to me, seems to be a better way of getting some sense of continuity from the outset.

Regards,


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Re: A mixed bag of 4 questions
Sebs #3053524 12/06/20 04:39 AM
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Originally Posted by Sebs
It's all helpful. I like hearing methods and tips. I think given my level I'll have to stick with small chunks and if I'm enjoying the learning and making progress I'll keep at it. I have had a piece that was way too hard and learned to call it quits. I believe variation I can learn and play it one day. Maybe it'll take me long but if it gets me to play it's helping me learn.

It depends on the music. Many pop pieces tends to be based on a few recurring chords and patterns. Once you master a few sections, you can play the whole piece. In classical, it is often more diversified. If you have difficulties to play every bar, then the piece is too difficult. Usually a new piece will have some new challenges which will teach you some new skills, but the bulk should be at your level, ie you can play it reasonably well, at slow tempo, after some practice within a few days. Also the more and better you play, the longer are the pieces that you can tackle.

Re: A mixed bag of 4 questions
Sebs #3053542 12/06/20 06:53 AM
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Bruce said “phrases,” that’s basically what I meant by finding sections in the music...

Also, Sidokar mentioned pop music, but the Lanz variations piece, even though it has obvious chords and recurring patterns, should be approached the way you would approach any classical price, IMO.

The other thing about the Variations piece is that, you could eassily play just a few pages, or skip over entire sections and string together a few of the variations (say, if one section is just too hard right now) and come back and add those in after a year or so.


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Re: A mixed bag of 4 questions
Sebs #3053627 12/06/20 11:36 AM
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Sorry, I thought of one more thing, again specific to Variations.

Another approach you might take is to look through the score and find the hardest section that you still find do-able. Start there and then after you have that somewhat down, go back and start at the very beginning. As you add more sections to practice, always alternative between a more difficult section and an easier section. This might make the piece feel like it comes together more quickly, and that in and of itself is motivating, which will make the piece easier to tackle.

I wonder if you and I have the same score, is yours 13 pages long?

Are you going to work on this with your teacher, or just keep it as something you work on little by little? I have a lot on my practice menu right now, but maybe I'll go back to this piece myself...


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Re: A mixed bag of 4 questions
ShiroKuro #3053813 12/06/20 08:02 PM
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Originally Posted by BruceD
I think that the limiting of learning to a specific number of measures per day might be very productive. Rather, I would suggest working on phrases, regardless of how many measures a phrase may cover. That, to me, seems to be a better way of getting some sense of continuity from the outset.

Regards,

Great as I was thinking no way I can learn massive parts of any song in a day. I am working on dividing it up in phrases best I can.

Originally Posted by ShiroKuro
I wonder if you and I have the same score, is yours 13 pages long?

Are you going to work on this with your teacher, or just keep it as something you work on little by little? I have a lot on my practice menu right now, but maybe I'll go back to this piece myself...

Yes, same 13 page score.

I talked with my teacher about it for a few minutes as I don't want it to take from lesson time. This is just for a side thing and it has been a favorite of mine over 20 years. After I put in my lesson work and homework from my teacher this is my side project. I would imagine there is a lot of good from it.

Last edited by Sebs; 12/06/20 08:12 PM.
Re: A mixed bag of 4 questions
Sebs #3053820 12/06/20 08:23 PM
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I think it's a great piece for a side-project! But I do encourage you to approach it strategically.

Be sure to give an update from time to time about it! smile


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Re: A mixed bag of 4 questions
ShiroKuro #3053825 12/06/20 08:33 PM
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Originally Posted by ShiroKuro
I think it's a great piece for a side-project! But I do encourage you to approach it strategically.

Be sure to give an update from time to time about it! smile
I recall on our other thread you mentioned you may play it. Did you decide to? What are some suggestions to phrase sections? I assume this is just the flow? Such as don't just think everything is bar by bar. For example in this piece, bars 1-2 would be a phrase given the flow?

Re: A mixed bag of 4 questions
Sebs #3053855 12/06/20 10:40 PM
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Re phrasing, yes, if you wanted to practice the smallest phrase, you could play those first two measures. Then the next phrase is the the next two measures, minus the very last note of measure 4. Then, the next phrase starts with that last note in measure 4, and ends on beat 3 in measure 5.

The other thing I would encourage is for you to play the first 8 measures, because that is the intro, which is one larger phrase — which excludes the last two notes of measure 8, the last two notes of measure 8 start the first time we get a main theme.

I can write more about this tmrw. I’m on my phone right now and I don’t like to type on my phone! :P


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Re: A mixed bag of 4 questions
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Learning and Connectng
Learning has so many different meanings in relation to playing piano that it is difficult to pin down with a definition. Learning two bars a day, for me, doesn't imply that I'll be learning a different two the next day so connect them to eight other bar at the end of the week is only possible with material I could have learnt in a week anyway.

When learning a piece we usually work in musical units or phrases rather than a set number of measures, though Bach Fugues are definitely an exception in my case. The first two measures of his Fugue No. 1, Book I, is a different task than learning measures 12 and 13 but learning a number of bars a day doesn't mean we can concatenate those bars later on; that isn't how the brain works. If the content were very simple then it might but by and large, when learning music, it isn't that straightforward.

My process is to learn a phrase or two, as much as will fit in short term or working memory, and practise it without having to keep reading it. I typically repeat the same material each day until I can play the phrase without having to first look at the music then I move onto the next phrase. (I typically divide a piece into sections and work the most difficult looking sections first. The easiest sections I leave till last and may even just read through them when all the other difficulties have been overcome.)

My learning process includes audiating through the score periodically, every day while it's new to me, either away from the piano or at least without playing it so the whole piece has unity and the phrase I'm working on has context. Once the phrase is learnt I let it be and move on.

When I've been through every phrase I go back and work in two phrase units. At this point I have played every phrase from memory at some point, including the first beat or bar of the next, and can fit more in working memory the second time through, or sometimes the third. The phrases don't need to be memorised overnight, just long enough that you can read a phrase once and then look down to practise it. Later on a glance at the score should be enough to jog the memory while playing through the whole piece. It doesn't mean you can sit down and play the piece from memory without the music, though with regular practise that tends to happen, especially while you're still young.

You may still need to practise some of the phrases individually but you shouldn't need to be looking at the score all the time.

Chopin Prelude
Playing the chords as written is going to be very boring. Listen to, say, Martha Argerich playing this. The playing is not going to work with a metronome but because of how she accents the notes you know where you are in the bar. The flow of the piece isn't metronomic but it is very even sounding because the dynamics have been adjusted to suit the timing. The melody is carefully phrased with a relatively wide dynamic range and over a fairly long time yet the very quiet sighs are still very audible over the harmony and the notes on the downbeat come through clearly even when whispered.

Examination pieces aren't necessarily chosen to test the mechanical skill of the player but also to test the technical skill (the ability to bring out the music rather running through double octave arpeggios, for example, which is largely a mechanical skill). This piece may be mechanically easier than some sonatinas but is technically and interpretively more advanced. The music remains hidden without a greater level of musical input than might be required of a more mechanically varied sonatina.


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Re: A mixed bag of 4 questions
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I would tend to play through the piece in the first lesson very slowly. If very hard I separate the hands and then quickly put together. I think breaking down into chunks and repating is something people do when they have to memorise. I can read easily the score so never done this. Once I've gone through once then absolutely focus on small parts and phrases can be very useful. Ive never learnt a piece 2 bars are a time.

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