2017 was our 20th year online!

Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 3 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments.
Over 100,000 members from around the world.
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

Shop our online store for music lovers
SEARCH
Piano Forums & Piano World
(ad)
Best of Piano Buyer
 Best of Piano Buyer
(ad)
Faust Harrison Pianos
Faust Harrison 100+ Steinway pianos
(ad)
Wessell Nickel & Gross
PianoForAll
Who's Online Now
41 members (anotherscott, arrgee, dannylux, CyberGene, clothearednincompo, David B, A. Lucato, brennbaer, 5 invisible), 569 guests, and 462 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
(ad)
Estonia Pianos
Estonia Pianos
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Hop To
Page 1 of 4 1 2 3 4
Fazioli soundboards
#3053207 12/05/20 10:08 AM
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 2,742
W
2000 Post Club Member
OP Offline
2000 Post Club Member
W
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 2,742
An interesting question about the construction of Fazioli soundboards has come up on the Is the Hailun 218 solid spruce? thread.

This relates to two and three layer boards shown in this patent granted in 2015: Methods or devices for protecting against, or for damping, noise or other acoustic waves in general using resonance effects.

More to come ...

Last edited by Withindale; 12/05/20 10:12 AM.

Ian Russell
Schiedmayer & Soehne, 1925 Model 14, 140cm
Ibach, 1905 F-IV, 235cm
Re: Fazioli soundboards
Withindale #3053229 12/05/20 11:10 AM
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 2,742
W
2000 Post Club Member
OP Offline
2000 Post Club Member
W
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 2,742
Steve Cohen kindly pointed out Piano Buyer says, Also newly patented are double- and triple-layer, moisture-resistant soundboards, available by special order for pianos that will be used in extreme climates.

Under Grand Piano: Design Concepts on their website, Fazioli expand on this and say, Fazioli has dedicated a significant portion of its research to optimising the soundboard, also patenting innovative solutions for its creation. The soundboard made with a special structure featuring three crossed layers of wood and a thickness of micrometres represents an important step towards achieving a solution with more uniform acoustic response and even greater stability over time, also under extreme environmental conditions (e.g. very dry or very humid environments).

What types of soundboards do Fazioli supply today as standard and as options?

Last edited by Withindale; 12/05/20 11:12 AM.

Ian Russell
Schiedmayer & Soehne, 1925 Model 14, 140cm
Ibach, 1905 F-IV, 235cm
Re: Fazioli soundboards
Withindale #3053365 12/05/20 05:11 PM
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 2,742
W
2000 Post Club Member
OP Offline
2000 Post Club Member
W
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 2,742
Here is a short summary of the patent.

Traditional soundboards tend to crack, reducing the value of the piano and resulting in expensive repairs.

The aims of the new boards are to :
1. Reduce the occurrence of cracks to a very low level.
2. Be less sensitive to the weather.
3. Exceed the musical quality of traditional boards.
4. Provide an easy method of assembling the board.

[Linked Image]

The concept is a sandwich of two boards, each about 5 mm tick, with a thin veneer filling about 0.6 mm thick. As you can see from the solid black arrows in the diagram, the planks in the second board are staggered relative to the first.

Fazioli claim this arrangement dramatically reduces the risk of cracks, based on comparative sample testing at temperatures up to 50C. The veneer helped to homogenise and stabilise the board and improve its efficiency of vibration.

They also claim the new sounding board generated sound of better quality. Its construction provided a more regular and intense frequencncy response as the energy dispersed inside the material was dramatically reduced. The improved stability of the board resulted in better tuning stability.


Ian Russell
Schiedmayer & Soehne, 1925 Model 14, 140cm
Ibach, 1905 F-IV, 235cm
Re: Fazioli soundboards
Withindale #3053376 12/05/20 05:49 PM
Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 575
W
500 Post Club Member
Offline
500 Post Club Member
W
Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 575
So this concept looks different than traditional laminated boards with multiple layers of roughly equivalent thickness; or Hailun tyoe, where the center is thick and the outer layers are thin. Fazioli's design is reminiscent of automobile safety glass.


-Bill L. - former tuner-technician
Re: Fazioli soundboards
Withindale #3053379 12/05/20 05:56 PM
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 1,695
M
1000 Post Club Member
Offline
1000 Post Club Member
M
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 1,695
I'd love to see the technology they use to fabricate and edge glue 0.6mm planks that long and that wide. Not to mention gluing the assembly together. I watched their factory tour video and it shows the traditional soundboard construction.


Yamaha P90, Kawai GL-10
Re: Fazioli soundboards
WBLynch #3053389 12/05/20 06:19 PM
Joined: Apr 2015
Posts: 73
S
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
S
Joined: Apr 2015
Posts: 73
Originally Posted by WBLynch
So this concept looks different than traditional laminated boards with multiple layers of roughly equivalent thickness; or Hailun tyoe, where the center is thick and the outer layers are thin. Fazioli's design is reminiscent of automobile safety glass.

I'm pretty sure the Hailun meniscus soundboards also have a thick solid spruce "core", with two much thinner pieces on the top and bottom. I.e., not multiple layers of equivalent thickness. See this video that HeathH posted on the Hailun soundboard thread:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&v=x3k4cw7xOv8

Last edited by Sonepica; 12/05/20 06:25 PM.
Re: Fazioli soundboards
Withindale #3053526 12/06/20 04:42 AM
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 2,742
W
2000 Post Club Member
OP Offline
2000 Post Club Member
W
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 2,742
Thank you, Sonepica, for confirming Bill's categorisation.


Ian Russell
Schiedmayer & Soehne, 1925 Model 14, 140cm
Ibach, 1905 F-IV, 235cm
Re: Fazioli soundboards
Sonepica #3053908 12/07/20 02:47 AM
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 1,268
T
1000 Post Club Member
Offline
1000 Post Club Member
T
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 1,268
Originally Posted by Sonepica
I'm pretty sure the Hailun meniscus soundboards also have a thick solid spruce "core", with two much thinner pieces on the top and bottom. I.e., not multiple layers of equivalent thickness. See this video that HeathH posted on the Hailun soundboard thread:

My comprehension of the patent was that the outer layers on the Fazioli are thick, while the middle layer is thin. (Auto safety glass has a thin plastic sheet in the middle)

The wood at the center has the smallest bending moment (I think that's the correct mechE term...), so it imparts the least bending stiffness for a given grain direction and total thickness of the reinforcing layer(s). That said...soundboards are pretty thin relative to their other dimensions, I would be surprised if you could actually hear a difference between that and having thin sandwich layers over a thick core, if the wood and grain orientations were otherwise identical.

Last edited by trigalg693; 12/07/20 02:51 AM.
Re: Fazioli soundboards
WBLynch #3054428 12/08/20 12:33 PM
Joined: Feb 2018
Posts: 1,029
G
1000 Post Club Member
Offline
1000 Post Club Member
G
Joined: Feb 2018
Posts: 1,029
Originally Posted by WBLynch
So this concept looks different than traditional laminated boards with multiple layers of roughly equivalent thickness; or Hailun tyoe, where the center is thick and the outer layers are thin. Fazioli's design is reminiscent of automobile safety glass.

Call me an old cynic but to me this sound like 'just another laminated soundboard' rather than anything inherently different to other laminates. I can see an advantage in having a 3ply construction with thick outer layers as it would then presumably be easier to taper the soundboard using conventional techniques than if the outer layers are thinner but I'm yet to be convinced that 'two thick and one thin' layers offer other acoustic advantages over 'one thick and two thin' or even three of equal thickness.

Re: Fazioli soundboards
gwing #3054434 12/08/20 12:53 PM
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 2,742
W
2000 Post Club Member
OP Offline
2000 Post Club Member
W
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 2,742
Originally Posted by gwing
Call me an old cynic but to me this sound like 'just another laminated soundboard' rather than anything inherently different to other laminates.

The patent examiners thought it was innovative.

Which would you choose, a soundboard of solid spruce which is prone to crack or a soundboard made from the same spruce which has improved acoustic qualities and is unlikely to crack?


Ian Russell
Schiedmayer & Soehne, 1925 Model 14, 140cm
Ibach, 1905 F-IV, 235cm
Re: Fazioli soundboards
Withindale #3054440 12/08/20 01:19 PM
Joined: May 2018
Posts: 1,204
L
1000 Post Club Member
Offline
1000 Post Club Member
L
Joined: May 2018
Posts: 1,204
Originally Posted by Withindale
Originally Posted by gwing
Call me an old cynic but to me this sound like 'just another laminated soundboard' rather than anything inherently different to other laminates.

The patent examiners thought it was innovative.

Which would you choose, a soundboard of solid spruce which is prone to crack or a soundboard made from the same spruce which has improved acoustic qualities and is unlikely to crack?

I am questioning the improved acoustic quality's. Three layers bonded with glue versus one layer?

His explanation in the video around 1:35 is not very convincing.



Just wondering.

Last edited by Learux; 12/08/20 01:22 PM.

When you play, never mind who listens to you. R.Schumann.

Casio GP-400
Schimmel SP-182T "I wish I had the room to keep you around"
August Forster 215
Re: Fazioli soundboards
Learux #3054445 12/08/20 01:36 PM
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 2,742
W
2000 Post Club Member
OP Offline
2000 Post Club Member
W
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 2,742
Originally Posted by Learux
Just wondering.

So am I. Brigham Larson was in China not Italy!


Ian Russell
Schiedmayer & Soehne, 1925 Model 14, 140cm
Ibach, 1905 F-IV, 235cm
Re: Fazioli soundboards
Withindale #3054493 12/08/20 03:52 PM
Joined: Feb 2018
Posts: 1,029
G
1000 Post Club Member
Offline
1000 Post Club Member
G
Joined: Feb 2018
Posts: 1,029
Originally Posted by Withindale
Originally Posted by gwing
Call me an old cynic but to me this sound like 'just another laminated soundboard' rather than anything inherently different to other laminates.

The patent examiners thought it was innovative.

Which would you choose, a soundboard of solid spruce which is prone to crack or a soundboard made from the same spruce which has improved acoustic qualities and is unlikely to crack?

As you ask, I would choose the piano which sounded the best irrespective of the type of soundboard. If there was no difference in that maybe I'd give preference to the laminated one on the ground that it should be cheaper and it probably is more stable to humidity changes. One nagging doubt would be whether these been around long enough to feel confident that the glue and laminations in them will outlast a traditional soundboard.

Having once constructed a reenactment shield from cold laminated veneers which was not only amazingly strong and light but also really musical when struck I suspect more can be achieved in soundboards than using a 'simple' ply construction but I am no piano builder, I don't know if the process would be practical.

Last edited by gwing; 12/08/20 03:56 PM.
Re: Fazioli soundboards
gwing #3054516 12/08/20 04:45 PM
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 2,742
W
2000 Post Club Member
OP Offline
2000 Post Club Member
W
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 2,742
Originally Posted by gwing
As you ask, I would choose the piano which sounded the best irrespective of the type of soundboard. If there was no difference in that maybe I'd give preference to the laminated one on the ground that it should be cheaper and it probably is more stable to humidity changes. One nagging doubt would be whether these been around long enough to feel confident that the glue and laminations in them will outlast a traditional soundboard.

Not sure the soundboard would be cheaper, two boards to make instead of one.

You make a good point about the adhesive, but maybe they are using the same glue as they use to glue the planks of the soundboard together. There are twenty or more planks in the boards in the diagram above.

I see you come from bodger country (chair making in beechwoods). It seems there is a similar tradition around Sacile where Fazioli make their pianos.

You should set yourself up as laminated board expert when spruce runs out.


Ian Russell
Schiedmayer & Soehne, 1925 Model 14, 140cm
Ibach, 1905 F-IV, 235cm
Re: Fazioli soundboards
Withindale #3054741 12/09/20 09:42 AM
Joined: Feb 2018
Posts: 1,029
G
1000 Post Club Member
Offline
1000 Post Club Member
G
Joined: Feb 2018
Posts: 1,029
Originally Posted by Withindale
Originally Posted by gwing
As you ask, I would choose the piano which sounded the best irrespective of the type of soundboard. If there was no difference in that maybe I'd give preference to the laminated one on the ground that it should be cheaper and it probably is more stable to humidity changes. One nagging doubt would be whether these been around long enough to feel confident that the glue and laminations in them will outlast a traditional soundboard.

Not sure the soundboard would be cheaper, two boards to make instead of one.

You make a good point about the adhesive, but maybe they are using the same glue as they use to glue the planks of the soundboard together. There are twenty or more planks in the boards in the diagram above.

I see you come from bodger country (chair making in beechwoods). It seems there is a similar tradition around Sacile where Fazioli make their pianos.

You should set yourself up as laminated board expert when spruce runs out.

nah, I'm just a bodger :-)

Re: Fazioli soundboards
gwing #3054742 12/09/20 09:43 AM
Joined: Feb 2018
Posts: 1,029
G
1000 Post Club Member
Offline
1000 Post Club Member
G
Joined: Feb 2018
Posts: 1,029
Originally Posted by gwing
Originally Posted by Withindale
Originally Posted by gwing
As you ask, I would choose the piano which sounded the best irrespective of the type of soundboard. If there was no difference in that maybe I'd give preference to the laminated one on the ground that it should be cheaper and it probably is more stable to humidity changes. One nagging doubt would be whether these been around long enough to feel confident that the glue and laminations in them will outlast a traditional soundboard.

Not sure the soundboard would be cheaper, two boards to make instead of one.

You make a good point about the adhesive, but maybe they are using the same glue as they use to glue the planks of the soundboard together. There are twenty or more planks in the boards in the diagram above.

I see you come from bodger country (chair making in beechwoods). It seems there is a similar tradition around Sacile where Fazioli make their pianos.

You should set yourself up as laminated board expert when spruce runs out.

Nah, I'm just a bodger. If even that, I grew up in 'broom dasher' country and they were a lot more disreputable than the chair bodgers.

Re: Fazioli soundboards
Withindale #3054810 12/09/20 12:54 PM
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 2,742
W
2000 Post Club Member
OP Offline
2000 Post Club Member
W
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 2,742
Originally Posted by gwing
Nah, I'm just a bodger. If even that, I grew up in 'broom dasher' country and they were a lot more disreputable than the chair bodgers.
[Linked Image]


Ian Russell
Schiedmayer & Soehne, 1925 Model 14, 140cm
Ibach, 1905 F-IV, 235cm
Re: Fazioli soundboards
Withindale #3054920 12/09/20 07:31 PM
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 877
500 Post Club Member
Offline
500 Post Club Member
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 877
Quoting Ian Russell citing the patent: "Fazioli claim this arrangement dramatically reduces the risk of cracks, based on comparative sample testing at temperatures up to 50C. The veneer helped to homogenise and stabilise the board and improve its efficiency of vibration..."

OK - so I can agree that temperature swings stress soundboards. Makes sense.

But why no mention of different relative humidity ranges?
People speak about 40% as sort of a minimum relative humidity below which some humidification, either of the room, or the piano, or both are indicated.

Not sure what the upper range indicating need for de-humidification is, but I'm guessing 60%.

Seems to me that humidity swings are at least as important as temperature.

Haven't played a new Fazioli with their patented board, just some older ones.
If they sound as good (or even better) and hold up better, that seems significant to me.
It certainly helps in the "competitive edge" department.


Andrew Kraus, Pianist
Educated Amateur Tuner/Technician
I Make Music that Lifts People Up & Brings Them Together
Rockville, MD USA
www.AndrewKraus.com
www.YouTube.com/RockvillePianoGuy
Twitter at @IAmAPianist

1929 Steinert 6'10" (Close copy of New York S&S "B")
Re: Fazioli soundboards
Withindale #3054951 12/09/20 10:04 PM
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 2,742
W
2000 Post Club Member
OP Offline
2000 Post Club Member
W
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 2,742
The relative humidity range mentioned in the description of the test results was 30-40 percent at 20C for 6 days before the tests at elevated temperature.


Ian Russell
Schiedmayer & Soehne, 1925 Model 14, 140cm
Ibach, 1905 F-IV, 235cm
Re: Fazioli soundboards
Withindale #3054977 12/10/20 12:29 AM
Joined: May 2018
Posts: 1,204
L
1000 Post Club Member
Offline
1000 Post Club Member
L
Joined: May 2018
Posts: 1,204
I see a lot of manufacturers mentioning humidity ranges being between 30 and 40 %.

Are we trying to over humidify our pianos?


When you play, never mind who listens to you. R.Schumann.

Casio GP-400
Schimmel SP-182T "I wish I had the room to keep you around"
August Forster 215
Page 1 of 4 1 2 3 4

Moderated by  Ken Knapp, Piano World 

Link Copied to Clipboard
What's Hot!!
News from the Piano World
100,000!
---------------------
NEW! Sell Your Piano on our world famous Piano Forums!
---------------------
Posting Pictures on the Forums
-------------------
Forums RULES & HELP
-------------------
ADVERTISE on Piano World
(ad)
Pianoteq
Steinway Spiro Layering
(ad)
PianoDisc

PianoDisc
(ad)
Piano Life Saver - Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
(ad)
Mason & Hamlin Pianos
New Topics - Multiple Forums
Fingerings for Visual Expression
by IntermedPianist - 01/16/21 06:35 AM
Efficient Arpeggio Playing, tips & tricks
by Denis Zhdanov - 01/16/21 03:58 AM
Yamaha or Rolan Or William rhapsody
by Belma - 01/15/21 11:22 PM
Kawai GX2 vs Shimmel 180
by tony3304 - 01/15/21 10:51 PM
N3X Lid Pin Sticking Out?
by tierce_de_picardie - 01/15/21 07:45 PM
Download Sheet Music
Virtual Sheet Music - Classical Sheet Music Downloads
Forum Statistics
Forums42
Topics204,282
Posts3,047,187
Members100,075
Most Online15,252
Mar 21st, 2010
Please Support Our Advertisers


Faust Harrison 100+ Steinways

Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver

 Best of Piano Buyer

PianoTeq Bechstein
Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers

Virtual Sheet Music - Classical Sheet Music Downloads



 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
| Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter |


© copyright 1997 - 2021 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.4