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Re: My opinion of builtin speakers vs monitors
meghdad #3052044 12/02/20 01:09 PM
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Originally Posted by meghdad
. . .The quality is not equal to studio monitors, but that's besides the point. They are powerful enough (50 watts) that need not be located "ear-level" to feel the sound naturally as if coming from the instrument itself.

In short, monitors may produce the most natural sound as far as the sound itself is concerned, however the acoustics and projection of sound becomes more synthetic and unnatural compared to builtin speakers in a console DP.
. . .

Talk about opening a can of worms . . . smile

I think you're making a distinction between "quality" and "naturalness", but you're not defining those terms, and you're not consistent in using them:

. . . what is "the most natural sound as far as the sound itself is concerned"?

I think that "ambience" might be a useful concept, but I don't want to muddy things even more.

One day, a VST maker will come out with a "5.1" or "7.1" version, for use with surround-sound, home-theater speaker systems. That might satisfy everyone.


. Charles
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Re: My opinion of builtin speakers vs monitors
meghdad #3052094 12/02/20 03:12 PM
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Originally Posted by meghdad
My question is though, aren't upright pianos' strings also covered by the cover and they still sound good? I mean, it's not just the covering or the cabinet in the way of the sound.

I don't think they sound too great without at least opening the lid.

Re: My opinion of builtin speakers vs monitors
meghdad #3052124 12/02/20 04:18 PM
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Natural resonance, ambience, natural reverb, room acoustics, sound bouncing off walls.
I don't think DP's with cabinets or studio monitors emulate particularly closely what an acoustic is actually producing.
At least with a good sample engine we are tricked into thinking we are hearing these things (really just a recording) ...whether its from inbuilt speakers or monitors.

Re: My opinion of builtin speakers vs monitors
meghdad #3052201 12/02/20 08:26 PM
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If the digital piano has samples that derive from microphones, then its speakers should reproduce that sound ... and nothing more. That means NO soundboard.

After all, isn't the digital piano meant to reproduce what those microphones heard?

Re: My opinion of builtin speakers vs monitors
meghdad #3052208 12/02/20 08:43 PM
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Originally Posted by meghdad
In my opinion, those who look for external speakers or monitors are missing the point of builtin speakers.

In the DPs where speakers are located beneath the unit (pretty much every DP), the goal is to direct the sound "through" the cabinet and the body of the instrument so it sounds close to how acoustic pianos manifest sound. Acoustics do not direct the sound "into" your ears because they do not have "ear-level" sound production although that might look like to be the case given the position of strings in an upright piano.

In DPs where the sound is muffled, the problem can be attributed to the characteristics of the speaker itself, and not its placement.
I have a Korg C1 and the speaker is located beneath the unit, with the front toward the player and not downwards. I don't find the sound muffled at all and quite on the contrary I enjoy the "though the instrument" illusion of sound production. The quality is not equal to studio monitors, but that's besides the point. They are powerful enough (50 watts) that need not be located "ear-level" to feel the sound naturally as if coming from the instrument itself.

In short, monitors may produce the most natural sound as far as the sound itself is concerned, however the acoustics and projection of sound becomes more synthetic and unnatural compared to builtin speakers in a console DP.

Just my 2 cents.

I agree. Of course, we all have our own preferences but I feel companies try to achieve a more "acoustic" sound with their configurations and using monitors just breaks that "illusion" at least for me. As usual, there is no right or wrong way, just a matter of preferences.


Kawai CA79 Rosewood
*Young Chang Y185 6'-1" (gone)
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Re: My opinion of builtin speakers vs monitors
meghdad #3052210 12/02/20 08:52 PM
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I never played a slab piano with built in speakers that sounded... well.. good. They all sounded (and felt) bad to me.

Peace
Bruce in Philly

Last edited by Bruce In Philly; 12/02/20 08:52 PM.

Peace
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Re: My opinion of builtin speakers vs monitors
Charles Cohen #3052216 12/02/20 09:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Charles Cohen
Originally Posted by meghdad
. . .The quality is not equal to studio monitors, but that's besides the point. They are powerful enough (50 watts) that need not be located "ear-level" to feel the sound naturally as if coming from the instrument itself.

In short, monitors may produce the most natural sound as far as the sound itself is concerned, however the acoustics and projection of sound becomes more synthetic and unnatural compared to builtin speakers in a console DP.
. . .

Talk about opening a can of worms . . . smile

I think you're making a distinction between "quality" and "naturalness", but you're not defining those terms, and you're not consistent in using them:

. . . what is "the most natural sound as far as the sound itself is concerned"?

I think that "ambience" might be a useful concept, but I don't want to muddy things even more.

One day, a VST maker will come out with a "5.1" or "7.1" version, for use with surround-sound, home-theater speaker systems. That might satisfy everyone.

VSL already has surround Synchron samples.


Wise men speak because they have something to say; Fools because they have to say something. (falsely attributed to Plato)
Vlad,
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Re: My opinion of builtin speakers vs monitors
meghdad #3052395 12/03/20 10:39 AM
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I wonder about those numbers stated by DP manufacturers. For instance, Yamaha CLP-745, in the tech specs states (50W+50W) * 2. That sums up to a glorious 200W. Wow! And a couple of lines below we have the power consumption of a mere 18W! Even if using class D amplifiers, they could produce something around 16W, which is more than enough with sensitive drivers.

The same happens with every manufacturer I 've checked so far. Roland for example in HP704 states rated output power 2*25 + 2*5 (although admittedly that is in the speaker system section, which could be what the drivers can handle) and a max power consumption of 30W. Kawai CA58 gives output 100W with 40W consumption.

For comparison a real world example: my least efficient HiFi class A tube amplifier shamelessly eats a hefty 300W from the grid to produce a mere 2x12W output in 4 Ohms load, which easily rocks the house with my speakers at nominal 6 Ohms, 88db@1W/1m sensitivity.

Given all that, I would take manufacturer claims with a big grain of salt and adjust my expectations accordingly regarding power output. Sound quality is a combination of amplifier quality (and its power supply), the quality and the orientation/placement of the drivers. For at least mid range DPs, I wouldn't expect much in this section too, taking into account the profit margins of the manufacturer/distributor/dealer chain and the need to keep the price, oh well, in the mid range. By that I don't mean that they squeeze quality over profit. It's just the result of solving the equation for a reasonable priced piano with nice keyboard, good looking furniture and a somewhat decent sound.

Re: My opinion of builtin speakers vs monitors
meghdad #3052466 12/03/20 02:05 PM
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Yeah rated power is completely useless since there is no standard for it.
Like Harman Kardon used to rate their receivers with REAL claims but it was hard to compete with another brand claiming 100W per channel while you were claiming 75W per channel and asking for more money. When in reality that other brand was barely able to hit 35W when ALL channels were driven while Harman Kardon could deliver all 75W with all channels driven


Kawai CA79 Rosewood
*Young Chang Y185 6'-1" (gone)
*Baldwin Hamilton Studio '67 (gone)
*Young Chang Y150 (Del F design) (gone)
Re: My opinion of builtin speakers vs monitors
Pete14 #3052469 12/03/20 02:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Pete14
I have a proposition:
Why not get rid of speakers/monitors altogether and simply stick a tapered soundboard made of solid spruce?

Why?

If you listen to opera, should the speakers be made of meat?

Re: My opinion of builtin speakers vs monitors
johnstaf #3052529 12/03/20 05:02 PM
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Originally Posted by johnstaf
Originally Posted by Pete14
I have a proposition:
Why not get rid of speakers/monitors altogether and simply stick a tapered soundboard made of solid spruce?

Why?

If you listen to opera, should the speakers be made of meat?

ROFL !!!!!!

I may use that line, sometime in the future . . . .<g>


. Charles
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Re: My opinion of builtin speakers vs monitors
johnstaf #3052566 12/03/20 06:37 PM
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This wins the prize as best Piano World reply of the year!
Originally Posted by johnstaf
Originally Posted by Pete14
I have a proposition: Why not get rid of speakers/monitors altogether and simply stick a tapered soundboard made of solid spruce?
Why? If you listen to opera, should the speakers be made of meat?

Re: My opinion of builtin speakers vs monitors
meghdad #3052590 12/03/20 07:25 PM
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Okay, what am I not getting here?

Is this meant to be taken literally or is it some sort of ‘operatic’ reference that goes over my head because I couldn’t care less about opera? Can someone break it down to me in simple terms?

Now, as far as a soundboard being better than speakers, it has nothing to do with the sound-source (samples, modeling, etc.) or recording method (microphones for samples, etc..), but it’s more a matter of dispersion. Granted, this is a layman speaking here, but I don’t think that a bunch of independent and very directional speakers will do a better job at dispersing sound than a soundboard, say the size of a baby grand, that is one solid piece emanating various frequencies that by default will affect each other “physically” (vibrations) and sonically (shades of sound produced by one region of the soundboard affecting the natural course of a partial decaying in another region). In my opinion, speakers, due to their isolated nature, cannot due this as well. It’s all ‘bout the in-between; that’s where the magic happens. The speakers are by nature isolated, so the space in-between is lost/wasted in dispersion.

Anecdotally I will say that I do perceive a better sound-field when playing the CA-95, which only uses half a’ soundboard, over digital pianos using only speakers. Of course, this is subjective, and some notice no difference at all or even think that it’s worse than speakers only.

In conclusion, I stand by my “soundboard is better” statement. Who’s with me? grin

Re: My opinion of builtin speakers vs monitors
meghdad #3053068 12/04/20 10:42 PM
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I have a pair of Presonus Eris E5 XT monitors that I use in addition to my PX-870's four built-in speakers. By combining the speakers/monitors, my piano now sounds quite realistic. To use only the built-in speakers sounds quite lame... the same can be said for using only the monitors. But combining the speakers/monitors gives me the best of both worlds.

Re: My opinion of builtin speakers vs monitors
meghdad #3053152 12/05/20 06:17 AM
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Soundboard is better!

You just wait for the NV-20; it will kick off a new era where the “acoustic” starts to look more like an obsolete DVD player (you know you have one somewhere around the house, but you haven’t used it in so long -for there is now streaming- that you wonder whether it works anymore; whilst debating whether grandma will get upset if you simply throw it away to make space for your most recent relic: A huge SD console TV 📺!

Re: My opinion of builtin speakers vs monitors
meghdad #3053353 12/05/20 04:55 PM
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Originally Posted by meghdad
In short, monitors may produce the most natural sound as far as the sound itself is concerned, however the acoustics and projection of sound becomes more synthetic and unnatural compared to builtin speakers in a console DP.

As someone who plays an acoustic grand every day and also digital piano via monitor speakers every day, I completely disagree with this.

Kawai NV10's built in speakers sound nothing like the real acoustic - the sound is very boxed in and just doesn't feel natural. The sound, heard through headphones, is quite excellent. So, it is not the audio engine issue. It is the amp and speaker issue.

Compared to NV10's built in speakers, a quality VST via the Genelec 8050B monitor speakers sound so much better and much closer to acoustic grand. The same VST via Kawai's speakers (using Line In) has the same 'boxed in' feeling. So, I have basically been using NV10 as a pure midi controller.

Osho


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Re: My opinion of builtin speakers vs monitors
meghdad #3053375 12/05/20 05:46 PM
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Always amazed to hear that someone uses a $15,000 piano as a controller for $300 VST software.
Was that the plan from the beginning, or were you just disillusioned with the NV10 after you got it?

Last edited by trooplewis; 12/05/20 05:47 PM.

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Took lessons from 1960 to 1969, stopped at age 16.
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Re: My opinion of builtin speakers vs monitors
trooplewis #3053398 12/05/20 06:46 PM
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Originally Posted by trooplewis
Always amazed to hear that someone uses a $15,000 piano as a controller for $300 VST software.

Note that Osho has a pair of Genelec 8050B which makes the difference at 2700€ for the pair. This is 30% of the NV10. (8900€ in France).I guess the builtin speakers/amps of the NV10 do worth far less.

About VST, they have unlooped samples... but we have to pay 1500€ for a DP with such unlooped samples (Gewa, Krome). It is quite anachronistic not to have such samples on a DP which costs far more.

Last edited by Frédéric L; 12/05/20 06:47 PM.

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Re: My opinion of builtin speakers vs monitors
trooplewis #3053413 12/05/20 07:21 PM
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Why is this surprising?
Originally Posted by trooplewis
Always amazed to hear that someone uses a $15,000 piano as a controller for $300 VST software.
Was that the plan from the beginning, or were you just disillusioned with the NV10 after you got it?
I use a $30,000 car with a $40 wipers, $45 oil changes, and $10 sunglasses.

Re: My opinion of builtin speakers vs monitors
MacMacMac #3053443 12/05/20 08:54 PM
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Originally Posted by MacMacMac
Why is this surprising?
Originally Posted by trooplewis
Always amazed to hear that someone uses a $15,000 piano as a controller for $300 VST software.
Was that the plan from the beginning, or were you just disillusioned with the NV10 after you got it?
I use a $30,000 car with a $40 wipers, $45 oil changes, and $10 sunglasses.

Because it's more like parking a $30,000 car in the garage and playing video car-chase games on the dashboard screen


Casio PX-S3000
Nope, no issues with it at all.
Took lessons from 1960 to 1969, stopped at age 16.
Started again in July 2020 at age 67. Lots more fun now!
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