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Minor slash chords with a 5th in the base
#3042401 11/03/20 03:01 PM
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I find this chord to be used quite rarely. The other minor slash chord that involves the 3rd of the minor chord, is used a lot more. It sounds better to be fair, so it's no surprise it's used more.

So my question is, does anyone know of any song that features this chord? If you do, please be share a youtube link of it, or else name the song and artist. If it's a complex song that contains hundreds of chords, you might point out the time stamp at which the chord occurs.

There can a lot of ambiguity with chords when extra notes are added in, so what one person might consider to be a min/5 slash chord, another might not. So just to be clear, to me a minor/5 slash chord is as follows: a basic minor chord that contains only three types of notes; the root, the min 3rd, and the 5th... and of course the 5th being the one in the base note.

Below are the only two examples, that I'm aware of, where I've come across of this type of chord. There's one used here (Dm/A) at 1:11, although when it's first played, he lands on a sus4/5 (Dsus4/A).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jrj6cOZtf9Y&ab_channel=PhilipAnness

Below you can hear Elton play a Cm/5 at 7:26

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ObV-6BiMtT8&ab_channel=woicykinator

Just to be clear, I am not asking what a slash chord is or anything like that. I'm just simply looking for a few examples of this exact chord in music. I know it's a specific question so if you can't think of any off the top of your head, that's fine.

Thank you

Last edited by Visalia; 11/03/20 03:08 PM.
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Re: Minor slash chords with a 5th in the base
Visalia #3042593 11/04/20 07:14 AM
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It is also known as a second inversion of a minor chord. If you google it you will find plenty of examples. There are many in classical music and in pop you would have for example the Beattles Day in the life as a Bm/Fsharp.

Re: Minor slash chords with a 5th in the base
Visalia #3042624 11/04/20 09:52 AM
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Originally Posted by Visalia
I find this chord to be used quite rarely.
In classical music you find this chord quite a lot as a cadential, passing or auxiliary chord -->
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_inversion

Ave Maria
[Linked Image]

No Moon At All, Redd Evans, David Mann
[Linked Image]

The Summer Knows, Michel Legrand
[Linked Image]

Re: Minor slash chords with a 5th in the base
Visalia #3042752 11/04/20 05:11 PM
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Back when I was doing harmony theory, much ado was made in one book about the 2nd inversion triad. It had caution signs planted all around, together with "only use it for these purposes and here they are, or else..." like this scary finicky thing. I doubt it is. But that was my first introduction to it as "a thing".

Re: Minor slash chords with a 5th in the base
Visalia #3042942 11/05/20 12:02 PM
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Originally Posted by keystring
Back when I was doing harmony theory, much ado was made in one book about the 2nd inversion triad. It had caution signs planted all around, together with "only use it for these purposes and here they are, or else..." like this scary finicky thing. I doubt it is. But that was my first introduction to it as "a thing".
I liked to build a chain of such chords descending through whole tones, without any connection with classical harmony, when it was about fusion harmony. In this case, the chord was in the second inversion, but the bass served as the root. This is called a hybrid chord.

Re: Minor slash chords with a 5th in the base
Nahum #3043004 11/05/20 04:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Nahum
Originally Posted by keystring
Back when I was doing harmony theory, much ado was made in one book about the 2nd inversion triad. It had caution signs planted all around, together with "only use it for these purposes and here they are, or else..." like this scary finicky thing. I doubt it is. But that was my first introduction to it as "a thing".
I liked to build a chain of such chords descending through whole tones, without any connection with classical harmony, when it was about fusion harmony. In this case, the chord was in the second inversion, but the bass served as the root. This is called a hybrid chord.

Totally. What I was trying to signal is how mysterious and complicated that book made it seem.

I also remember I think that instead of just giving it a figured bass name of 64, I think it was called a V64, even though it was built on I rather than V, because it had a "dominant function". I totally balked at that.

I'd like to run what you wrote just now by my teacher. I'm long past the narrow specialization I started with due to the books I picked up first.


---------
argh - I've missed the "minor" part the whole time.

Re: Minor slash chords with a 5th in the base
keystring #3043123 11/06/20 04:25 AM
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Originally Posted by keystring
Back when I was doing harmony theory, much ado was made in one book about the 2nd inversion triad. It had caution signs planted all around, together with "only use it for these purposes and here they are, or else..." like this scary finicky thing. I doubt it is. But that was my first introduction to it as "a thing".

And i assume the book was probably correct within the frame of a certain musical period. There is no absolute objective rules, and that is what is most theory books fail to explain. But the tonal harmony principles are definitely reflecting the compositional practice of roughly late baroque, classic and a large part of the romantic period, even if composers also used plenty of exceptions and each period would also have its own set of specifics. But as a general starting point, it gives a solid foundation, if one understand that it is relative. What is important is not decide if a rule is an absolute one but to understand what is relevant to use when studying the mindset of a given composer. For example i see many people analysing Bach with the modern chord system. That does not make any sense because that is not how Bach thought his music and thus it is a completely misleading point of view. To understand Bach, one need to also know the thoroughbass rules and the counterpoint.

But on the other hand when reading Debussy or Wagner or Faure, each of these would have its own language, with various deviations vs the standard harmony. And jazz or pop have their own various compositional practices, also quite diversified. But the fact that there is no absolute rules does not mean that some rules are not valid at a given point in time and a given composer.

Re: Minor slash chords with a 5th in the base
Sidokar #3043287 11/06/20 03:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Sidokar
It is also known as a second inversion of a minor chord. If you google it you will find plenty of examples. There are many in classical music and in pop you would have for example the Beattles Day in the life as a Bm/Fsharp.
Thanks

Just tried listening to that song without looking at a tab. Funny, because when I was playing it, I went for a Bm. Then I listened closely and heard the E base and presumed I was wrong and that it was an Em!!! Of course then I realised that I was partly right each time! The sound of it didn't stand out enough.

But aside from that; for some reason I always considered an inversion to be just a triad. If someone were holding (FDF) in their left hand, and (ADFA) in their right hand, then that's 7 notes. I'd be more inclined to say that this is a slash chord that contains a 2nd inversion in the right hand... rather than saying it's a first inversion.

Re: Minor slash chords with a 5th in the base
Cudo #3043332 11/06/20 05:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Cudo
[/quote]
The Summer Knows, Michel Legrand
[Linked Image]
I think there's a few different keys to that song. I can't find it. Can you point it out here?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R5CBdBCMCmI&ab_channel=MichelLegrandetsesrythmes-Topic

Last edited by Visalia; 11/06/20 05:28 PM.
Re: Minor slash chords with a 5th in the base
Visalia #3043343 11/06/20 06:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Visalia
Originally Posted by Cudo
The Summer Knows, Michel Legrand
[Linked Image]
I think there's a few different keys to that song. I can't find it. Can you point it out here?[/quote]
Look here at 4:16
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QSqRX75fbJ4

Re: Minor slash chords with a 5th in the base
Cudo #3043478 11/07/20 06:53 AM
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Originally Posted by Cudo
Originally Posted by Visalia
[quote=Cudo]
The Summer Knows, Michel Legrand
[Linked Image]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QSqRX75fbJ4
You don't have to answer this. But I'm wondering how that is held! Would it be (F Db F) in the left hand, and (Bb Db F) in the right hand?

Originally Posted by Cudo
Ave Maria
[Linked Image]
Would you mind pointing out where?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2H5rusicEnc&ab_channel=Musicaparabodas1

Last edited by Visalia; 11/07/20 06:58 AM.
Re: Minor slash chords with a 5th in the base
Visalia #3043536 11/07/20 10:35 AM
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Originally Posted by Visalia
But aside from that; for some reason I always considered an inversion to be just a triad. If someone were holding (FDF) in their left hand, and (ADFA) in their right hand, then that's 7 notes. I'd be more inclined to say that this is a slash chord that contains a 2nd inversion in the right hand... rather than saying it's a first inversion.

Inversion is just an analytical convention, it does not necessarily translate into a particular audible result all the time, especially if the chord is complex. How it sounds to you can be different from how it is notated. For a baroque composer your chord above (assuming they would write such a chord) would be classified as a sixth chord. That said, the second inversion of a minor chord is pretty widely recognized under that terminology in the pop world.

For the day in the life, here is one score with the chords.

https://sheetmusic-free.com/a-day-in-the-life-sheet-music/

Re: Minor slash chords with a 5th in the base
Sidokar #3043726 11/08/20 05:32 AM
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Originally Posted by Sidokar
[quote=Visalia]
If someone were holding (FDF) in their left hand, and (ADFA) in their right hand, then that's 7 notes.
Inversion is just an analytical convention, it does not necessarily translate into a particular audible result all the time, especially if the chord is complex. How it sounds to you can be different from how it is notated. For a baroque composer your chord above (assuming they would write such a chord) would be classified as a sixth chord. That said, the second inversion of a minor chord is pretty widely recognized under that terminology in the pop world.
To me, such a chord would need a C note to be considered a 6 chord. To me a six chord is a major chord with a major 6th interval. But I guess baroque composer would have license to call it what they want!

But maybe a 'six' chord is different to a 'sixth' chord?

Re: Minor slash chords with a 5th in the base
Visalia #3043847 11/08/20 05:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Visalia
To me, such a chord would need a C note to be considered a 6 chord. To me a six chord is a major chord with a major 6th interval. But I guess baroque composer would have license to call it what they want!

But maybe a 'six' chord is different to a 'sixth' chord?[/quote]

For a baroque composer an FDA chord would be a sixth chord with the F in the bass, whether its a major or a minor sixth above the bass does not matter, and you can double some of the notes within certain rules, though less than in pop or jazz. You dont need to have the C, though it was fairly current to encounter that configuration. As i said how you perceive a chord and even more how you name it is very relative to the type of music and the period. There is no unified notation and naming throughout music history. But the "standard" tonal harmony, essentially from the 19th century is a pretty commonly used point of reference.

Re: Minor slash chords with a 5th in the base
Sidokar #3050902 11/29/20 01:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Sidokar
There are many in classical music and in pop you would have for example the Beattles Day in the life as a Bm/Fsharp.
Thanks for that Beatles example. It's rare that you come across such a chord in pop music.

Originally Posted by Sidokar
It is also known as a second inversion of a minor chord. If you google it you will find plenty of examples.
Google is good for things like explaining what such a chord is, its notation, and so on. Google wouldn't be able to understand the exact question I have. I wouldn't have typed this thread if it could.

Last edited by Visalia; 11/29/20 01:52 PM.
Re: Minor slash chords with a 5th in the base
Visalia #3050983 11/29/20 06:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Visalia
]To me, such a chord would need a C note to be considered a 6 chord. To me a six chord is a major chord with a major 6th interval. But I guess baroque composer would have license to call it what they want!

But maybe a 'six' chord is different to a 'sixth' chord?
Jumping into the middle of this. A whole bunch of different systems are mixing together and that doesn't work.

A "6" chord can be VI (generic number without quality) meaning the 6th degree diatonic chord in a key. In the key of C major, ACE (Am) is the VI chord - or VIm, or vi - depending on the system you are using.

In figured bass CAE is that same chord, in 1st inversion. In that case, you will see the note as a bass note, with a 6 under it. You may be thinking of that "6". This is actually a short form for "6 3". The logic is that if you have C, and go a 3rd (interval up) you get to E; if you go a 6th up from that C, you get A - thus all three notes of Am.

In a modified figured bass that I see in more modern theory books (I have two like that) they'll also put in the degree, so you might see VI6.

In "jazz notation" or letter name notation you have different conventions. Here a "6 chord" ---- CEGA is C6. The "C" designates a major triad. The 6 means the note a 6th above the C. It also has its particular sound quality, which for jazz and by ear players, they are sensitive to. That same CEGA, if it were inverted as ACEG is your Am7 chord. A person with a "classical" background going over into this system would be inclined to write CEGA as Am7/C .... I've done that, but since you would be "hearing" it as a major chord, with the CEG prominent in your ears, C6 describes the sound better than Am7/C.

The other 6, Cm6, is "also" the half diminished chord. CEbGA is Cm6. ACEb is a diminished triad. ACEbGb is a dim7; ACEbG therefore is half diminished. So from my old "classical days" I'd end up calling CEbGA Eb half dim/ C instead of Cm6. But we probably hear the Cm prominently.

It gets even more fun if you are working orally and you hear someone say "six" and you don't know whether they are saying VI or 6 (C6). "It's a 'six' chord." So am i looking for VI, or an X6 (X = unknown note name).

Re: Minor slash chords with a 5th in the base
Visalia #3051087 11/30/20 12:55 AM
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According to Hindemith's theory, the main sound of an interval is determined by the ratios of the overtones
https://www.belcanto.ru/osnton.html#gallery

, therefore, the triad root gives the name to the entire chord, regardless of its inversion. However, the same overtone system allows any lowest pitch of a chord to be considered as the root giving the name to the entire chord. Therefore, the naive designation of the pentatonic chord in the Beatles song as Bm \ F # would have to be replaced with F # 7sus4 \ avoid5 is a song from 1967 , not from 1867 Also, the major pentatonic scale of CDEGA explains the jazz chord C6 \ 9 - CEGAD, popular since the 1920s, and its simplified version of C6 - CEGA. This is the basic position of the chord, and its origin is not from European theory, but from African music.

Re: Minor slash chords with a 5th in the base
keystring #3051119 11/30/20 05:30 AM
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Originally Posted by keystring
Originally Posted by Visalia
]To me, such a chord would need a C note to be considered a 6 chord. To me a six chord is a major chord with a major 6th interval. But I guess baroque composer would have license to call it what they want!

But maybe a 'six' chord is different to a 'sixth' chord?
Jumping into the middle of this. A whole bunch of different systems are mixing together and that doesn't work.

A "6" chord can be VI (generic number without quality) meaning the 6th degree diatonic chord in a key. In the key of C major, ACE (Am) is the VI chord - or VIm, or vi - depending on the system you are using.

In figured bass CAE is that same chord, in 1st inversion. In that case, you will see the note as a bass note, with a 6 under it. You may be thinking of that "6". This is actually a short form for "6 3". The logic is that if you have C, and go a 3rd (interval up) you get to E; if you go a 6th up from that C, you get A - thus all three notes of Am.

In a modified figured bass that I see in more modern theory books (I have two like that) they'll also put in the degree, so you might see VI6.

In "jazz notation" or letter name notation you have different conventions. Here a "6 chord" ---- CEGA is C6. The "C" designates a major triad. The 6 means the note a 6th above the C. It also has its particular sound quality, which for jazz and by ear players, they are sensitive to. That same CEGA, if it were inverted as ACEG is your Am7 chord. A person with a "classical" background going over into this system would be inclined to write CEGA as Am7/C .... I've done that, but since you would be "hearing" it as a major chord, with the CEG prominent in your ears, C6 describes the sound better than Am7/C.

The other 6, Cm6, is "also" the half diminished chord. CEbGA is Cm6. ACEb is a diminished triad. ACEbGb is a dim7; ACEbG therefore is half diminished. So from my old "classical days" I'd end up calling CEbGA Eb half dim/ C instead of Cm6. But we probably hear the Cm prominently.

It gets even more fun if you are working orally and you hear someone say "six" and you don't know whether they are saying VI or 6 (C6). "It's a 'six' chord." So am i looking for VI, or an X6 (X = unknown note name).

Originally Posted by Nahum
According to Hindemith's theory, the main sound of an interval is determined by the ratios of the overtones
https://www.belcanto.ru/osnton.html#gallery

, therefore, the triad root gives the name to the entire chord, regardless of its inversion. However, the same overtone system allows any lowest pitch of a chord to be considered as the root giving the name to the entire chord. Therefore, the naive designation of the pentatonic chord in the Beatles song as Bm \ F # would have to be replaced with F # 7sus4 \ avoid5 is a song from 1967 , not from 1867 Also, the major pentatonic scale of CDEGA explains the jazz chord C6 \ 9 - CEGAD, popular since the 1920s, and its simplified version of C6 - CEGA. This is the basic position of the chord, and its origin is not from European theory, but from African music.

If only you guys were as quick to address the actual intended thread topic as you are to talk about this rocket science caper!!

Re: Minor slash chords with a 5th in the base
Visalia #3051124 11/30/20 05:53 AM
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Originally Posted by Visalia
If only you guys were as quick to address the actual intended thread topic as you are to talk about this rocket science caper!!
Infantile answers aren't me!

Re: Minor slash chords with a 5th in the base
Nahum #3051127 11/30/20 06:15 AM
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Originally Posted by Nahum
Originally Posted by Visalia
If only you guys were as quick to address the actual intended thread topic as you are to talk about this rocket science caper!!
Infantile answers aren't me!
so you don't know any min/5 chord examples in popular music?

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