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Originally Posted by P W Grey
Correct...I never mentioned "upright" as that would be a "duh"...everybody knows that. I spoke of a grand for obvious reasons. Are you now advancing the view that it is not necessary to employ a jack when tapping or driving tuning pins in a grand piano?

You stated: "It is up to the tuner to understand if and when a jack is necessary on a grand to tap in pins to make adjustments". Have you checked this out with major manufacturers? Can you get them to put into writing when and where it is okay to drive tuning pins in their pianos WITHOUT providing proper support from underneath? I assume you have done this and you have their permission in writing...yes?

You stated: "No one drives pins down to the plate". Funny, as I have encountered this on numerous occasions (one of which was a gorgeous Steinway C in one of the most prestigious areas of the country). The pianos have been ruined. How is that reversible other than rebuilding the piano? I suspect others here have encountered similar situations.
What I am saying is that I think you are making a straw man argument. I would be happy to go into these details, but I don't think you actually have any questions or concerns. You are already trying to steer the conversation with what you think I would say, rather than allowing me to make my own statements.

Let me give you an example, P W Grey, what kind of doctor are you? What kind of degree to you hold that affords you the rights and responsibilities of that title? Is it an MD, DMA, Ph.D.? I assume it is a DMA, since I know a lot of piano doctors that have worked hard to earn their professional degrees. Is that what you have, a performance degree?

Can you see how this would be a straw man argument?

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Originally Posted by accordeur
Originally Posted by RonTuner
If done with care and not going for a 'quick fix all at once' - then yes. That is why I don't tip the piano, goop it on and try to seal up everything. Essentially, the approach I use is to create a starved glue joint between the pin and the pinblock. Thin glue gets pulled in by capillary action and then pulls away from the pin into the wood, leaving room for further application.

10-15 minutes of careful work - possibly repeated over a few yearly tuning visits if it is needed. I've got pianos out in the field where this has held up over 30 years now, so it's not really considered a temporary or 'wrong' way of doing things anymore. Much better than splitting a block more by putting in oversize pins - in my experience.

Ron Koval

At the 4th post here on this thread RonTuner said it all!

I prefer tipping the piano if I will do the whole pinblock because I don't have a very steady hand. But I still apply very little. 3 drops about.

I learned to use less from RonTuner (Ron Koval) right here on this forum, or maybe another.

I used to make the CA follow the whole contour around the very bottom of the pin, look at it seeping in etc.. not DRENCHING it, more like 6 to 8 drops. And they are tuned to this day but...

As Ron said....less is more. Over time I experimented with just 3 drops on problem pins only, with the piano upright. Basically as you tune.

Just as successful, completely invisible, piano savior.

These customers would of bought a digital piano, or none at all if the piano was sent to the dump.

Now their child or whoever gets to play on a real acoustic. And in the future buy a better acoustic?

Thank you Ron

You are very welcome!

I began my online learning when the old college and university technicians email list was active. I believe it was Newton Hunt (and a few others) who were experimenting with CA on practice room pianos in the mid 1980's. This was before I even had home access to the internet, but the music school where I worked had a computer lab where I could download the daily digests to learn from those willing to share results. Steam voicing, high-use bushings, different tuning approaches, early electronic tuning devices, well-tempered tunings...

I also learned from Ron Nossaman (sp?) that learning needs to be combined with doing your own experiments instead of blindly following along with any person's guidance. Newton liked to fill the void around the pins in the first dosing, going back and forth until no more glue would soak in. I found that less glue applied in smaller doses didn't plug up the area, yet still allowed the technique to work over a bit more time. (easy to do when one has access to beat-up practice room or donated pianos!) It was many years later when I was able to join the sometimes messy discussions online and offer my own questions, thoughts, or suggestions.

Thank you all for participating... and be well!

Ron Koval

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Originally Posted by RonTuner
Newton liked to fill the void around the pins in the first dosing, going back and forth until no more glue would soak in. I found that less glue applied in smaller doses didn't plug up the area, yet still allowed the technique to work over a bit more time.
It sounds like some people are saying that 3 drops of water thin CA, won't seal the wood, and can be used many times. It is hard to tell, because people won't state exactly what they are experiencing and what the parameters are. We could test the validity of those assertions. Does a 40 in/lb pin go to 120 in/lb? Does each application increase the in/lb by the same amount? At what point, at how many doses, does CA not significantly increase the in/lb. Can CA be applied 10 times and get the pin back to 120 in/lb each time.

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Why don't you tell us? You claim to have used it so no doubt it's been subjected to your impeccable scientific scrutiny.
Nick


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Originally Posted by piano411
Originally Posted by RonTuner
Newton liked to fill the void around the pins in the first dosing, going back and forth until no more glue would soak in. I found that less glue applied in smaller doses didn't plug up the area, yet still allowed the technique to work over a bit more time.
It sounds like some people are saying that 3 drops of water thin CA, won't seal the wood, and can be used many times. It is hard to tell, because people won't state exactly what they are experiencing and what the parameters are. We could test the validity of those assertions. Does a 40 in/lb pin go to 120 in/lb? Does each application increase the in/lb by the same amount? At what point, at how many doses, does CA not significantly increase the in/lb. Can CA be applied 10 times and get the pin back to 120 in/lb each time.

I've never had to apply CA glue more than once, so I'm confused as to the concept of using it on the same piano many times. In my experience, the pianos tune just as well years later as they did the day I applied the CA glue.


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Originally Posted by Eric Gloo
I've never had to apply CA glue more than once, so I'm confused as to the concept of using it on the same piano many times. In my experience, the pianos tune just as well years later as they did the day I applied the CA glue.
This was OPs question. How many times can it be reapplied, if and when it fails or doesn't work as intended. His previous post he mentioned the CA didn't work as well as he had wished. I think he wanted to know if he can continue to reapply until it works.

People that use it should be able to talk about their experiences. Thank you for sharing yours. You've only have experience applying it once.

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Originally Posted by N W
Why don't you tell us? You claim to have used it so no doubt it's been subjected to your impeccable scientific scrutiny.
My experience is that CA seals off the wood, which makes future applications unpredictable if not impracticable. This has been one of my criticisms of using CA. Once the wood is impregnated, you're stuck between a rock and a hard place. I even stated that, perhaps, I am doing it wrong. If people are actually stating that my experiences are wrong, I am happy to set up a test to put some actual numbers on what is happening.

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Hey.....411....I just worked out where you live.
Ho ho ... you'll not eat me for your supper.
Nick

Last edited by N W; 11/28/20 03:18 PM.

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N_W, does that mean that the CA does in fact seal off the wood? The treatment is more or less a one-and-done approach? And, no further testing is necessary?

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Duane,

Has your initial question been answered satisfactorily?

Peter Grey Piano Doctor


Peter W. Grey, RPT
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I still have questions relating to OP original question. Can CA be used multiple times or not? I can't tell if people are actually claiming that it can or not. One person seems to be saying that it can be reapplied again at subsequent tunings, other people are saying it is a one time thing, and others say it depends. If no one wants to clear it up here, or do any testing, we can do it the next time someone brings up the issue.

Let's peer review a process and put the issue to rest with real numbers.

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Originally Posted by Duaner
Sometimes you come to a piano that the pins have been all glued and yet it is time to either do it again or do something more expensive or send the piano to the land fill.
This implies he has come across pianos that have been CA'd in the past, the pins are loose again, and the question is, can the pins be CA'd again?

That implies the poster has experience coming across pianos where the CA didn't hold indefinitely. I've experienced this too. Metal pins that turn wear out the wooden holes. If people have experience reCAing the block, in such a way that it works again and again, I'd really like to know. The times I've tried it, it didn't seem to work very well in a predictable manner. Again, maybe I did it wrong. I am willing to try it again, and test it out using a different methodology. But, if everyone else is getting the same results, that CA is a one-and-done treatment, then there is no need to test it.

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Originally Posted by piano411
N_W, does that mean that the CA does in fact seal off the wood? The treatment is more or less a one-and-done approach? And, no further testing is necessary?

Fol de rol...


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Originally Posted by N W
Fol de rol...
Scientific testing and observation is nonsense? Or, are you saying that CA does or doesn't seal off the wood?

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Sometimes coming out in the open air is better than hiding under bridges.
Children can take another route once they know the bridge in question.....


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I'm suggesting that we openly test people's hypothesis about how CA works in the pin block. It seems pretty reasonable to me. If that is a bridge you don't want to cross, that's fine. If you don't want to test the claims under controlled conditions, then I think the warnings about the practice are fair game and should be expressed whenever the issues arises.

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Originally Posted by piano411
Originally Posted by Eric Gloo
I've never had to apply CA glue more than once, so I'm confused as to the concept of using it on the same piano many times. In my experience, the pianos tune just as well years later as they did the day I applied the CA glue.
This was OPs question. How many times can it be reapplied, if and when it fails or doesn't work as intended. His previous post he mentioned the CA didn't work as well as he had wished. I think he wanted to know if he can continue to reapply until it works.

People that use it should be able to talk about their experiences. Thank you for sharing yours. You've only have experience applying it once.

I guess I should have been more clear. I've used CA glue on loose tuning pins in many, many pianos. I've only had to apply it once in each of those pianos. In all of the pianos in which I've applied CA glue, the pianos tune just as well years later as they did the day I applied the CA glue.


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Yes, I've re-applied to a number of pianos. I'm not going for super tight pins, just ones that tune well. My favorite tuning pianos are actually a bit on the looser side than I think other techs prefer. I really like to use a short lever and if the strings cooperate and stay in place, I'm happy.

On occasion, I have treated all of the pins, but that isn't my normal approach unless required. On those I'm treating a lot, my aim the first day is to just get the string to hold - the subsequent visits give me an opportunity to target pins that are still on the loose side to add another few drops to even out the tuning feel across the keyboard.

I've tried many different brands and currently prefer the Tightbond brand of thin that is available in a 2oz bottle from a local 'mom and pop' hardware store. No 'crunchiness' after using and seems to give a good feel to the lever while tuning.

Since I go slow, I have a few pianos that I have treated the same pin(s) on 2 or 3 visits over time and then they tend to stay tight for many years. On a few I treated decades ago, I have had a few pins that I'll add another drop or two if I am there in the dry season and they feel loose again. I do have some of my earliest attempts that are now 'sealed' because I used so much CA on the first pass. They were donated pianos that were terribly loose to begin, so I know what you are talking about... It is still possible with those to treat again with a drop or two and then rotate the pin in the block slightly to allow the CA to get down below the sealed section. No fun!

On grands in that situation, it is possible to treat from the underside - either by tipping or flipping or carefully using a long tube.

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Originally Posted by Eric Gloo
guess I should have been more clear. I've used CA glue on loose tuning pins in many, many pianos. I've only had to apply it once in each of those pianos. In all of the pianos in which I've applied CA glue, the pianos tune just as well years later as they did the day I applied the CA glue.
Oh, I get it, I understood the first time. I didn't mean to imply otherwise. Sorry about that.

You fall into the one-and-done category. So far, you have not seen CA wear out or need to be done a second time.

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RonTuner, can you put a number on what the looser side is? Are we talking about 80 or 110? Just a rough estimate.

So, would you say you do 3 drops at a time, all in the same location? Instead of spreading the three drops out around the pin? The next time you add, you choose a different location? I'm just guessing here. That is one way that I could potentially see multiple applications working.

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