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Re: using shim of ivory for the lost tuning pin
P W Grey #3050095 11/27/20 11:14 AM
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Originally Posted by P W Grey
Something like phenolic fiberboard makes more sense to me, and could POSSIBLY get translated as "ivory" somehow. Just a wild guess.

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Re: using shim of ivory for the lost tuning pin
Maximillyan #3050104 11/27/20 11:31 AM
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We are perilously close to talking about superglue again!
Old fashioned pintight was a blend of resins and glycerine dissolved in denatured alcohol. I can imagine soaking a strip of veneer and pushing it in the hole would be better than cardboard. Originally, the denatured alcohol delivered the glycerin and resins into the woodgrain, the alcohol being the wycking agent. The alcohol evaporated leaving the glycerine and resin. The resins entered the wood and sealed the grain and the glycerine, which is hydroscopic, attracted moisture to swell the wood. Unfortunately, the hydroscopic nature of the product encourages rust which whilst it helps on the buried part of the pin, destroys any wire by rusting it, so very careful application was needed.
Modern wags worked out that glycerine and alchol is what antifreeze is made of so took to marketing rebottled antifreeze as pintight. In the end they didn't even disguise the blue colour.
This hastened the end of the use of pintight as without the resin, the wood fibres do not seal and so the repair is very temporary and destructive.
Then along came ca glue.....the rest is argument history....
Nick

Last edited by N W; 11/27/20 11:38 AM.

Nick, ageing piano technician
Re: using shim of ivory for the lost tuning pin
Maximillyan #3050115 11/27/20 12:11 PM
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N_W, that is an interesting history lesson. I had no idea that technicians were putting antifreeze in the pinblock!!! I will have to remember that for my long list of things never to do to a piano. It's crazy that there was a time were technicians were using antifreeze as the cheap fix of the day.

I don't often use the shims, but I agree with the approach as it is easily reversible. But, it is a hard no on the blue antifreeze.

Re: using shim of ivory for the lost tuning pin
N W #3050119 11/27/20 12:25 PM
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Originally Posted by N W
We are perilously close to talking about superglue again!
Old fashioned pintight was a blend of resins and glycerine dissolved in denatured alcohol. I can imagine soaking a strip of veneer and pushing it in the hole would be better than cardboard. Originally, the denatured alcohol delivered the glycerin and resins into the woodgrain, the alcohol being the wycking agent. The alcohol evaporated leaving the glycerine and resin. The resins entered the wood and sealed the grain and the glycerine, which is hydroscopic, attracted moisture to swell the wood. Unfortunately, the hydroscopic nature of the product encourages rust which whilst it helps on the buried part of the pin, destroys any wire by rusting it, so very careful application was needed.
Modern wags worked out that glycerine and alchol is what antifreeze is made of so took to marketing rebottled antifreeze as pintight. In the end they didn't even disguise the blue colour.
This hastened the end of the use of pintight as without the resin, the wood fibres do not seal and so the repair is very temporary and destructive.
Then along came ca glue.....the rest is argument history....
Nick
thanks for the historical background, Nick. But why do you think that cardboard shim loses in front of soaked veneer? Have you tried used cardboard in your practices of fix?
Do English technicians techs the use of cardboard shim now?

Re: using shim of ivory for the lost tuning pin
piano411 #3050121 11/27/20 12:28 PM
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Originally Posted by piano411
N_W, that is an interesting history lesson. I had no idea that technicians were putting antifreeze in the pinblock!!! I will have to remember that for my long list of things never to do to a piano. It's crazy that there was a time were technicians were using antifreeze as the cheap fix of the day.

I don't often use the shims, but I agree with the approach as it is easily reversible. But, it is a hard no on the blue antifreeze.
sometimes alcohol poured into the hole of pinblock can help there

Re: using shim of ivory for the lost tuning pin
Maximillyan #3050145 11/27/20 01:50 PM
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I haven't ever tried cardboard Maxymillian, so I can't comment. But maybe a piece of veneer would load up with resin and glycerine and so might swell nicely. But I haven't tried that either. Maybe cardboard would too. I've used sandpaper on harpsichords (try your banging pins and bigger sizes on harpsichords 411 and be prepared to leave the area quickly smile ).

It's worth me adding to my previous comments that it must be understood that when I was an apprentice we had only pintight, metal sleeves or bigger pins. The pianos that needed this sort of attention were all around 1900 built. There wasn't the available cash around for people to just spend in those days. So clients would beg for a cheaper fix.
The blocks were soft or cracked. Bigger pins were useless within a year or so. Sleeves very rarely worked. We used those mainly for a crack. Pintight would be offered to a client on the strict understanding that it would give an extra two or three years and then be useless.
In fact pintight worked for a good few years more than that in practice. Mixing the stuff properly was vitally important. Too much resin and the pins were all jumpy. Application was difficult. Piano on it's back. Very precise application with hyperdermic syringe. Slow. Piano left overnight to settle and dry. Then back to tuning. Even if it was only half a dozen pins.
It's hardly surprising that ca took over. No need to tilt the piano. A few drops, done. No charge!
I think, though I dont have the evidence, that the ca must seal the grain as the resin used to. Which means it's a permanent fix. I quite understand why 411 thinks it's a bit naff but he clearly doesn't have clients on modest incomes.
Luckily for me, where I live all those 100 year old pianos are long gone...
Nick

Last edited by N W; 11/27/20 01:52 PM.

Nick, ageing piano technician
Re: using shim of ivory for the lost tuning pin
Maximillyan #3050184 11/27/20 03:07 PM
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I do not think that one would be able to get ivory at a hardware store in Brazil. "Marfim" probably has some local meaning, possibly a trade name. You should ask the person who wrote it to explain exactly what it is. "Ivory" in the United States is a brand of soap, among other things.


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Re: using shim of ivory for the lost tuning pin
N W #3050187 11/27/20 03:26 PM
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Originally Posted by N W
I quite understand why 411 thinks it's a bit naff but he clearly doesn't have clients on modest incomes.
Luckily for me, where I live all those 100 year old pianos are long gone...
No, I don't think it is naff!!! I support the use of CA when the piano is economically worthless, and there is little means to invest into the piano. I also support the use of shims, whether they are sandpaper, cardboard, or whatever. I like the shim approach because it is easily reversible.

My understanding of Max is that there isn't an easy supply of pins, and supplies, so the cardboard is an easy and appropriate solution given his environment. It works, it fixes the problem, it is reversible, it is a quick fix, so I don't see any problems.

Why doesn't Max use the CA glue?

Re: using shim of ivory for the lost tuning pin
Maximillyan #3050192 11/27/20 03:41 PM
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Good question. Max, have you tried it?
Nick


Nick, ageing piano technician
Re: using shim of ivory for the lost tuning pin
N W #3050292 11/27/20 10:24 PM
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Originally Posted by N W
I haven't ever tried cardboard Maxymillian, so I can't comment. But maybe a piece of veneer would load up with resin and glycerine and so might swell nicely. But I haven't tried that either. Maybe cardboard would too. I've used sandpaper on harpsichords (try your banging pins and bigger sizes on harpsichords 411 and be prepared to leave the area quickly smile ).

It's worth me adding to my previous comments that it must be understood that when I was an apprentice we had only pintight, metal sleeves or bigger pins. The pianos that needed this sort of attention were all around 1900 built. There wasn't the available cash around for people to just spend in those days. So clients would beg for a cheaper fix.
The blocks were soft or cracked. Bigger pins were useless within a year or so. Sleeves very rarely worked. We used those mainly for a crack. Pintight would be offered to a client on the strict understanding that it would give an extra two or three years and then be useless.
In fact pintight worked for a good few years more than that in practice. Mixing the stuff properly was vitally important. Too much resin and the pins were all jumpy. Application was difficult. Piano on it's back. Very precise application with hyperdermic syringe. Slow. Piano left overnight to settle and dry. Then back to tuning. Even if it was only half a dozen pins.
It's hardly surprising that ca took over. No need to tilt the piano. A few drops, done. No charge!
I think, though I dont have the evidence, that the ca must seal the grain as the resin used to. Which means it's a permanent fix. I quite understand why 411 thinks it's a bit naff but he clearly doesn't have clients on modest incomes.
Luckily for me, where I live all those 100 year old pianos are long gone...
Nick
Hi,Nick
Thanks for the detailed excursion into the past. Now the genesis of understanding the use of various means techniques of fixing the lost pin by the of the piano technicians United Kingdom is becoming clearer. Thanks especially for the clarification on aluminum sleeves. I myself assumed that their use is wildness (sorry). However, it is still for sale! Why?
Max was forced to experiment a lot with different materials, but they all did not give much of the fix effect there. (Thick paper, linden veneer, canvas, etc.) Once a retired military pilot suggested that none of the materials that Max uses will be able to change the situation for the better, if not change algorithm technologies of process there. The pilot explained that the mistake has in re-set of s pin in time of the shimming. He suggested that the pin must should be screwed in, not hammered. He explained this by the fact that the presence of a fine thread on the tuning peg suggests that it should be attributed to the SCREWING. Accordingly, the fix must be carried out using the general practice that all technicians use do with shim. Then Max tried 3mm corrugated cardboard. The positive effect was evident. Since then, Max has been using it for over 20 years. More details can be found here:http://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthreads.php/topics/3007272/1.html

Re: using shim of ivory for the lost tuning pin
piano411 #3050294 11/27/20 10:29 PM
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Originally Posted by piano411
Originally Posted by N W
I quite understand why 411 thinks it's a bit naff but he clearly doesn't have clients on modest incomes.
Luckily for me, where I live all those 100 year old pianos are long gone...
No, I don't think it is naff!!! I support the use of CA when the piano is economically worthless, and there is little means to invest into the piano. I also support the use of shims, whether they are sandpaper, cardboard, or whatever. I like the shim approach because it is easily reversible.

My understanding of Max is that there isn't an easy supply of pins, and supplies, so the cardboard is an easy and appropriate solution given his environment. It works, it fixes the problem, it is reversible, it is a quick fix, so I don't see any problems.

Why doesn't Max use the CA glue?
piano411, thanks for your understanding,
regards, Max

Re: using shim of ivory for the lost tuning pin
BDB #3050298 11/27/20 10:39 PM
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Originally Posted by BDB
I do not think that one would be able to get ivory at a hardware store in Brazil. "Marfim" probably has some local meaning, possibly a trade name. You should ask the person who wrote it to explain exactly what it is. "Ivory" in the United States is a brand of soap, among other things.

(lâmina de marfim) it's ivory plates there, I'm hope

Re: using shim of ivory for the lost tuning pin
Maximillyan #3050358 11/28/20 05:55 AM
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Originally Posted by Maximillyan
Originally Posted by N W
I haven't ever tried cardboard Maxymillian, so I can't comment. But maybe a piece of veneer would load up with resin and glycerine and so might swell nicely. But I haven't tried that either. Maybe cardboard would too. I've used sandpaper on harpsichords (try your banging pins and bigger sizes on harpsichords 411 and be prepared to leave the area quickly smile ).

It's worth me adding to my previous comments that it must be understood that when I was an apprentice we had only pintight, metal sleeves or bigger pins. The pianos that needed this sort of attention were all around 1900 built. There wasn't the available cash around for people to just spend in those days. So clients would beg for a cheaper fix.
The blocks were soft or cracked. Bigger pins were useless within a year or so. Sleeves very rarely worked. We used those mainly for a crack. Pintight would be offered to a client on the strict understanding that it would give an extra two or three years and then be useless.
In fact pintight worked for a good few years more than that in practice. Mixing the stuff properly was vitally important. Too much resin and the pins were all jumpy. Application was difficult. Piano on it's back. Very precise application with hyperdermic syringe. Slow. Piano left overnight to settle and dry. Then back to tuning. Even if it was only half a dozen pins.
It's hardly surprising that ca took over. No need to tilt the piano. A few drops, done. No charge!
I think, though I dont have the evidence, that the ca must seal the grain as the resin used to. Which means it's a permanent fix. I quite understand why 411 thinks it's a bit naff but he clearly doesn't have clients on modest incomes.
Luckily for me, where I live all those 100 year old pianos are long gone...
Nick
Hi,Nick
Thanks for the detailed excursion into the past. Now the genesis of understanding the use of various means techniques of fixing the lost pin by the of the piano technicians United Kingdom is becoming clearer. Thanks especially for the clarification on aluminum sleeves. I myself assumed that their use is wildness (sorry). However, it is still for sale! Why?
Max was forced to experiment a lot with different materials, but they all did not give much of the fix effect there. (Thick paper, linden veneer, canvas, etc.) Once a retired military pilot suggested that none of the materials that Max uses will be able to change the situation for the better, if not change algorithm technologies of process there. The pilot explained that the mistake has in re-set of s pin in time of the shimming. He suggested that the pin must should be screwed in, not hammered. He explained this by the fact that the presence of a fine thread on the tuning peg suggests that it should be attributed to the SCREWING. Accordingly, the fix must be carried out using the general practice that all technicians use do with shim. Then Max tried 3mm corrugated cardboard. The positive effect was evident. Since then, Max has been using it for over 20 years. More details can be found here:http://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthreads.php/topics/3007272/1.html
Thanks for the reply Max.
But just to be clear...have you ever tried CA glue?
Nick


Nick, ageing piano technician
Re: using shim of ivory for the lost tuning pin
N W #3050366 11/28/20 06:38 AM
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Originally Posted by N W
Originally Posted by Maximillyan
Originally Posted by N W
I haven't ever tried cardboard Maxymillian, so I can't comment. But maybe a piece of veneer would load up with resin and glycerine and so might swell nicely. But I haven't tried that either. Maybe cardboard would too. I've used sandpaper on harpsichords (try your banging pins and bigger sizes on harpsichords 411 and be prepared to leave the area quickly smile ).

It's worth me adding to my previous comments that it must be understood that when I was an apprentice we had only pintight, metal sleeves or bigger pins. The pianos that needed this sort of attention were all around 1900 built. There wasn't the available cash around for people to just spend in those days. So clients would beg for a cheaper fix.
The blocks were soft or cracked. Bigger pins were useless within a year or so. Sleeves very rarely worked. We used those mainly for a crack. Pintight would be offered to a client on the strict understanding that it would give an extra two or three years and then be useless.
In fact pintight worked for a good few years more than that in practice. Mixing the stuff properly was vitally important. Too much resin and the pins were all jumpy. Application was difficult. Piano on it's back. Very precise application with hyperdermic syringe. Slow. Piano left overnight to settle and dry. Then back to tuning. Even if it was only half a dozen pins.
It's hardly surprising that ca took over. No need to tilt the piano. A few drops, done. No charge!
I think, though I dont have the evidence, that the ca must seal the grain as the resin used to. Which means it's a permanent fix. I quite understand why 411 thinks it's a bit naff but he clearly doesn't have clients on modest incomes.
Luckily for me, where I live all those 100 year old pianos are long gone...
Nick
Hi,Nick
Thanks for the detailed excursion into the past. Now the genesis of understanding the use of various means techniques of fixing the lost pin by the of the piano technicians United Kingdom is becoming clearer. Thanks especially for the clarification on aluminum sleeves. I myself assumed that their use is wildness (sorry). However, it is still for sale! Why?
Max was forced to experiment a lot with different materials, but they all did not give much of the fix effect there. (Thick paper, linden veneer, canvas, etc.) Once a retired military pilot suggested that none of the materials that Max uses will be able to change the situation for the better, if not change algorithm technologies of process there. The pilot explained that the mistake has in re-set of s pin in time of the shimming. He suggested that the pin must should be screwed in, not hammered. He explained this by the fact that the presence of a fine thread on the tuning peg suggests that it should be attributed to the SCREWING. Accordingly, the fix must be carried out using the general practice that all technicians use do with shim. Then Max tried 3mm corrugated cardboard. The positive effect was evident. Since then, Max has been using it for over 20 years. More details can be found here:http://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthreads.php/topics/3007272/1.html
Thanks for the reply Max.
But just to be clear...have you ever tried CA glue?
Nick

I have never tried it's. Max is well aware that the CA works efectivy, but Max has no need to use the CA in his own tuning practices. CA "pastes on" partially the pin + the pinblock hole. Cyanoacrylic compounds "burn" the fibers of the wood there. CA compounds with oxygen are harmful toxic compounds that are harmful to human health for many times here. It's using one time there.
Max is against using an oversized pin, as it destroys the pianblock. And as result it's operation make new cracks pinblock more there too. Cardboard shimming is Max credo.
regards,

Re: using shim of ivory for the lost tuning pin
Maximillyan #3050376 11/28/20 07:18 AM
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Thanks Max.
Nick


Nick, ageing piano technician
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