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Ed Foote, it still didn't get through, because you still didn't state at what pound force you set your pins. Or what ever you do. So far, other than to add crazy glue, you don't regulate to ensure the feel of pin to pin is consistent. You state you think that a different size pin is not stable and creates a mushy feel. I don't know what you are doing to get such results, but that has never happened for me. For me, a properly sized and height set pin is indistinguishable to a brand new pin and a new pin block. If you are getting different results, then you are doing something wrong.

Again, factories don't recommend the application of crazy glue to their pianos.

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Definition:

Palliative care is specialized medical care for people living with a serious illness. This type of care is focused on providing relief from the symptoms and stress of the illness. The goal is to improve quality of life for both the patient and the family.

Palliative care is provided by a specially-trained team of doctors, nurses and other specialists who work together with a patient’s other doctors to provide an extra layer of support. Palliative care is based on the needs of the patient, not on the patient’s prognosis. It is appropriate at any age and at any stage in a serious illness, and it can be provided along with curative treatment.



I think the above definition is consistent with what the vast majority of techs (esp on this forum) who judiciously use CA in their practices, do.

I have been on this forum (and others) for several years. Not once (REPEAT: NOT ONCE) have I heard (read) anyone recommending drenching a pinblock with crazy glue. Never...not once. All references have been toward moderate usage (as needed) to prolong the usable lifespan of an otherwise untunable (or nearly so) piano. Those who seek to learn best practice in this regard (such as Duane) are advised accordingly in a conservative fashion.

I can only speculate as to what the real motivations are to continually assert that any of us are destroying clients pianos, "drenching" them with "crazy glue". There of course is a reason for everything, and the real reasons will doubtlessly manifest themselves in time.

Where appropriate I will replace pins. Where appropriate I will use CA. Where appropriate I will recommend a new pinblock. Where appropriate I will recommend sending the piano to the dump (after all lead has ben removed from it). Where appropriate I will recommend purchasing a replacement instrument. I will recommend what is appropriate to the circumstances. The client will make the final decision.

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P_W_Grey, the word that you need to look up is palliate. It means to make less severe or intense--the concept is to mitigate the symptoms without resolving the underlying problem. As a doctor yourself, I am sure you are aware that palliative care is not limited to the field of medicine. With regards to pianos, palliative care refers to an end of life stopgap which allows the piano to continue to work, without actually fixing the real problem, usually because the cost of the fix outweighs the value of the instrument.

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Originally Posted by P W Grey
I can only speculate as to what the real motivations are to continually assert that any of us are destroying clients pianos, "drenching" them with "crazy glue". There of course is a reason for everything, and the real reasons will doubtlessly manifest themselves in time.
Who is "us" and why are you making a division? There is no need to speculate. You can ask.

In the Baldwin thread, there were two people that had their pinblocks saturated, drenched, soaked, encased, or however you would like it described. It was too late to do anything about it, so I didn't bring it up then, but there was no need for that approach. That wasn't the right thing to do, and there are unintended consequences to have to deal with now. Remember, you knew enough then to recommend to replace the pinblock and not to even mess around with it in that kind of condition. I didn't assert anything, you recognized that the CA destroyed the pinblock and that they only thing to be done at this point was to replace it. That was you. You recognized that the CA "treatment" destroyed the pinblock.

For the record, I will continue to assert that crazy glue is palliative care treatment for an end of life piano every time is see, read, or hear it, and that doing such an approach will limit the options in the future. Notably it will require a new pinblock or bridge. What is interesting is that none one actually disagrees with my standpoint. They just disagree with me stating it.

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Originally Posted by piano411
Ed Foote, it still didn't get through, because you still didn't state at what pound force you set your pins. Or what ever you do. So far, other than to add crazy glue, you don't regulate to ensure the feel of pin to pin is consistent.

Again, factories don't recommend the application of crazy glue to their pianos.

When I drill a block, I use 1/0 pins and drill a Bouldoc block for 130 in/lbs. of torque. They consistently settle to between 115-120 in/lb final. (I have only replaced 53 blocks).

You seem to have mastered this whole business so well, what with regulating torque as pianos age, and a command of how to do it, that I am sure the PTG journal would love to have you write it up as a technical article. Since I have never heard anybody espousing the line of reasoning you are pushing, it would possibly be unique and enlightening. Nothing like the opportunity for peer review to establish expertise in the trade.

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Originally Posted by piano411
Originally Posted by P W Grey
I can only speculate as to what the real motivations are to continually assert that any of us are destroying clients pianos, "drenching" them with "crazy glue". There of course is a reason for everything, and the real reasons will doubtlessly manifest themselves in time.
Who is "us" and why are you making a division? There is no need to speculate. You can ask.

In the Baldwin thread, there were two people that had their pinblocks saturated, drenched, soaked, encased, or however you would like it described. It was too late to do anything about it, so I didn't bring it up then, but there was no need for that approach. That wasn't the right thing to do, and there are unintended consequences to have to deal with now. Remember, you knew enough then to recommend to replace the pinblock and not to even mess around with it in that kind of condition. I didn't assert anything, you recognized that the CA destroyed the pinblock and that they only thing to be done at this point was to replace it. That was you. You recognized that the CA "treatment" destroyed the pinblock.

For the record, I will continue to assert that crazy glue is palliative care treatment for an end of life piano every time is see, read, or hear it, and that doing such an approach will limit the options in the future. Notably it will require a new pinblock or bridge. What is interesting is that none one actually disagrees with my standpoint. They just disagree with me stating it.

I certainly disagree with your standpoint. Using CA glue in the proper way does NOT limit the options in the future in ANY way.

Piano411 you won't reveal your identity. In my book that makes you a troll. And a successful one too, because here I am again replying to your nonsense when I told myself I would not.

All the best anyways.


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Originally Posted by accordeur
I certainly disagree with your standpoint. Using CA glue in the proper way does NOT limit the options in the future in ANY way.
Sure it does.

You can't use crazy glue an unlimited number of times. This is basically what OP was asking. There is a point at which no more soaks in. No one is arguing that point. Where that limit is becomes very difficult to say based on how the material in the past have been applied. That is just one way the options are limited in the future. The other way you are limited when it is used is that the wood needs to be replaced to recreate the feel and response of a new pinblock (which is not saturated with crazy glue).

For a start, those are two ways crazy glue limits future options. Those two owners of saturated pinblocks can't now take a traditional approach, they have to replace the pinblock. That's too bad.

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Originally Posted by Ed Foote
When I drill a block, I use 1/0 pins and drill a Bouldoc block for 130 in/lbs. of torque. They consistently settle to between 115-120 in/lb final.
Well, OK, there you go! 115 in/lbs is much better than your aforementioned 150 and 175 in/lbs. That seems much more reasonable. I don’t know too many people that start off with 1/0 pins, but doing so obviously allows future tuners to regulate the pin torque through a few extra sizes of pins. That is great! Then next issue is how to maintain that 115 in/lbs over the lifetime of the tuning of that piano. And, if I have understood you correctly, you either don't experience any deterioration of that 115 in/lbs in over 3700 tunings, or you just leave it alone until it becomes a problem.

I’m not sure why you think an article needs to be written, but people establish their expertise in a field through accredited education and governmental trade certifications. I've done both. But, honestly, I don't think an article needs to be written that describes how turning metal pins wears out wooden holes. Everyone understands this. The line of reasoning that tuners should regulate pin torque as the piano ages, in order to maintain tuning consistency has been with us since before pianos even existed.

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Originally Posted by piano411
You can't use crazy glue an unlimited number of times. This is basically what OP was asking. There is a point at which no more soaks in. No one is arguing that point.

I'm not quite sure I understand your point. Are you saying that using CA glue is damaging because using CA glue limits the amount of times you can use CA glue in the future? I'm just trying to clarify what you are saying.

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There are a few issues going on. Using CA changes how the pin feels and responds in the pin block. A pin in an untreated wooden pinblock does not feel the same as a pin treated with CA glue. There is a difference.

We have a long standing tradition of how to deal with these issues. Tuning pins have no standard pin height, we move them up and down, and exchange pin lengths and sizes to create consistent feel at the tuning pin. Shims are also a traditional means of dealing with very loose tuning pins. This is all standard stuff. It is reversible, and it causes no damage.

Once CA has been used, we can’t get it back out of the wood. There are chemicals that can remove the CA at the surface, but we can’t practically get the CA back out of the wood. Once it is in there, it is in there.

Because the CA seals off the wood, further applications are increasingly more unpredictable. In some cases, CA can only be used once. Over the lifetime of the pinblock, a tuner makes many adjustment to the pins to keep everything consistent. If a tuner applies CA to a 3/0 pin, then you are limiting what you can do in the future by exchanging larger pins or adding more glue.

People have suggested in this thread that it is still possible to push in larger pins, yet when there was a poster that had a CA treated pinblock, everyone instinctively recommended that they replace the pinblock and not even try to mess around with larger pins. This is normal, as CA is the last approach, when the piano is on its last leg. No doubt it works, but it is a method of last resort because it limits what can be done afterwards.

CA is a viable option, but usually only when there is no economical fix that makes any sense. If a piano is not worth $200, then it might not make sense to do it the tradition way. On the other hand, if the owner is doing the work themselves, they may want to go ahead and invest the time in a process that doesn’t destroy and change the integrity of the wood.

I just want to make sure that CA and its use is put into perspective. Its use is for very limited situations, which have more to do with economics. Traditional methods yield better results.

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Originally Posted by piano411
There are a few issues going on. Using CA changes how the pin feels and responds in the pin block. A pin in an untreated wooden pinblock does not feel the same as a pin treated with CA glue. There is a difference.

On the pianos where I have applied CA glue, the pins have a consistent feel from one to the next, tuning after tuning, year after year. I doubt if any of these pianos will require a new pinblock in the near future, since there are currently no issues with loose tuning pins. Some technicians have been using CA glue for decades, with fantastic results. Do decades of successful use equate to a traditional method?

piano411 have you ever tried water thin CA glue on loose tuning pins?


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Originally Posted by RonTuner
If done with care and not going for a 'quick fix all at once' - then yes. That is why I don't tip the piano, goop it on and try to seal up everything. Essentially, the approach I use is to create a starved glue joint between the pin and the pinblock. Thin glue gets pulled in by capillary action and then pulls away from the pin into the wood, leaving room for further application.

10-15 minutes of careful work - possibly repeated over a few yearly tuning visits if it is needed. I've got pianos out in the field where this has held up over 30 years now, so it's not really considered a temporary or 'wrong' way of doing things anymore. Much better than splitting a block more by putting in oversize pins - in my experience.

Ron Koval

At the 4th post here on this thread RonTuner said it all!

I prefer tipping the piano if I will do the whole pinblock because I don't have a very steady hand. But I still apply very little. 3 drops about.

I learned to use less from RonTuner (Ron Koval) right here on this forum, or maybe another.

I used to make the CA follow the whole contour around the very bottom of the pin, look at it seeping in etc.. not DRENCHING it, more like 6 to 8 drops. And they are tuned to this day but...

As Ron said....less is more. Over time I experimented with just 3 drops on problem pins only, with the piano upright. Basically as you tune.

Just as successful, completely invisible, piano savior.

These customers would of bought a digital piano, or none at all if the piano was sent to the dump.

Now their child or whoever gets to play on a real acoustic. And in the future buy a better acoustic?

Thank you Ron

Last edited by accordeur; 11/27/20 10:54 PM. Reason: spelling, excuse my french

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Of course none of us has EVER come across a grand where someone (who was told "drive the pins in if they're loose") has driven all the pins right down to the plate (yeah they got tight all right!) but didnt bother to support the pinblock with a jack (somebody forgot that little piece of information) and totally decimated the pinblock, so much so that one cannot remove the action...now we have to declare the piano DOA to an unsuspecting client...


No, that has never happened...or has it?

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Originally Posted by Eric Gloo
Some technicians have been using CA glue for decades, with fantastic results. Do decades of successful use equate to a traditional method?
No. It is the practice that has been used for centuries which qualifies as the traditional method. I don't doubt that CA could prolong the use of the piano for decades, but most people have admitted that it is a method of "giving the piano a few more years." My point is that CA is not a means of making small adjustments. You don't add 1 drop to this pin, 5 drops to that pin, and 7 drops to that pin over there. This is not a method of getting even and measurably consistent results. The more this is repeated, the less predictable it is.

Originally Posted by Eric Gloo
piano411 have you ever tried water thin CA glue on loose tuning pins?
Yes. It works. I only use it in specific situations. Where I use it, it is a fine method. Again, I am not saying that it shouldn't be used. What I am saying is that it is used too often and too much, and that technicians and customers don't necessarily know that there are traditional alternatives. Shims being another one. My issue is that there should be full disclosure. I don't think there is anything wrong with that.

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Originally Posted by P W Grey
Of course none of us has EVER come across a grand where someone (who was told "drive the pins in if they're loose") has driven all the pins right down to the plate (yeah they got tight all right!) but didnt bother to support the pinblock with a jack (somebody forgot that little piece of information) and totally decimated the pinblock, so much so that one cannot remove the action...now we have to declare the piano DOA to an unsuspecting client...
No, that has never happened...or has it?
Doc, this is the second time you tried to built up this straw man argument. Jacks aren't used on upright pianos. Right? It is up to the tuner to understand if and when a jack is necessary on a grand to tap in pins to make adjustments. No one drives pins down to the plate. There is a functional range. I am happy to talk with you about how to know what to do and when.

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Originally Posted by accordeur
I used to make the CA follow the whole contour around the very bottom of the pin, look at it seeping in etc.. not DRENCHING it, more like 6 to 8 drops. And they are tuned to this day but...
So, for the purposes of this thread, OP may like to know how many times can you could do this 6-8 drop non-drenching? Is there anyone willing to state that this can be done an infinite number of times? Or, can you do it three times, four? How many times? OP might want to know. If I remember correctly, he did a pass, and it didn't work how he had wanted. So, can he do it again, and again, and again? For those that push this method, please share what you have experienced.

I say no. I say the crazy glue is unpredictable. If others have had more predictable results, please feel free to share. Maybe I didn't do it right.

Another example of this unpredictability of CA was given by OE1FEU. He has had a few different piano builders, concert technicians, and master piano builders working on his home piano. He was having problems with the tone surrounding some bridge pins. They tried the CA, it didn't work. They tried the epoxy, it didn't work. So, now, they are recapping the bridge and solving it the traditional way. Here is his link of other people doing work to his piano: https://www.clavio.de/threads/steinway-b-seriennummer-60103-1887.23873/post-778373

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411 you say "The line of reasoning that tuners should regulate pin torque as the piano ages, in order to maintain tuning consistency has been with us since before pianos even existed."
That sentance just makes no sense.How can a piano age if it doesn't exist?

You say "and exchange pin lengths and sizes to create consistent feel at the tuning pin. Shims are also a traditional means of dealing with very loose tuning pins. This is all standard stuff. It is reversible, and it causes no damage"

How is putting a bigger pin in reversible. Sure, you can take it out. But then what? So there are a limited number of times you can apply this before a new block is needed. Which is exactly the criticism you make of using ca.

You say"Once CA has been used, we can’t get it back out of the wood" well, you can't get the bigger hole you've made back into the wood either.

You say"If a piano is not worth $200" How much do you charge to replace a pinblock? If you're happy to do it for that price please come to the UK and I'll provide you with a never ending line of customers.

You say "My point is that CA is not a means of making small adjustments. You don't add 1 drop to this pin, 5 drops to that pin, and 7 drops to that pin over there. This is not a method of getting even and measurably consistent results."

But that is exactly how even results are achieved. When you are voicing hammers you don't needle each hammer exactly the same number of times otherwise the variation between them would remain the same. You use sensitive, experienced judgements to achieve eveness in any endeavour.

I'm bored with this now.

Nick

Last edited by N W; 11/28/20 06:51 AM.

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My last comment: what is all this talk of "reversible" repairs 411. Can't anything be done that isn't reversible?
That rules out most piano repairs doesn't it? If I glue a broken piece of wood it's not reversible...well it is in that I could break it again I suppose if I went round the bend..... I don't see how not reversible invalidates a repair.
Good luck reversibly replacing the pin block.
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Originally Posted by piano411
Originally Posted by P W Grey
Of course none of us has EVER come across a grand where someone (who was told "drive the pins in if they're loose") has driven all the pins right down to the plate (yeah they got tight all right!) but didnt bother to support the pinblock with a jack (somebody forgot that little piece of information) and totally decimated the pinblock, so much so that one cannot remove the action...now we have to declare the piano DOA to an unsuspecting client...
No, that has never happened...or has it?
Doc, this is the second time you tried to built up this straw man argument. Jacks aren't used on upright pianos. Right? It is up to the tuner to understand if and when a jack is necessary on a grand to tap in pins to make adjustments. No one drives pins down to the plate. There is a functional range. I am happy to talk with you about how to know what to do and when.


Correct...I never mentioned "upright" as that would be a "duh"...everybody knows that. I spoke of a grand for obvious reasons. Are you now advancing the view that it is not necessary to employ a jack when tapping or driving tuning pins in a grand piano?

You stated: "It is up to the tuner to understand if and when a jack is necessary on a grand to tap in pins to make adjustments". Have you checked this out with major manufacturers? Can you get them to put into writing when and where it is okay to drive tuning pins in their pianos WITHOUT providing proper support from underneath? I assume you have done this and you have their permission in writing...yes?

You stated: "No one drives pins down to the plate". Funny, as I have encountered this on numerous occasions (one of which was a gorgeous Steinway C in one of the most prestigious areas of the country). The pianos have been ruined. How is that reversible other than rebuilding the piano? I suspect others here have encountered similar situations.

Peter Grey Piano Doctor


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Originally Posted by N W
4That sentance just makes no sense.How can a piano age if it doesn't exist?
Because the tradition of how to work with tuning hammers and pins predates the modern piano. We use a tuning hammer--notice what the thing is called--because we know that we are to tap in the pin during tuning when it is not a tight compared to the pin around it.

Originally Posted by N W
How is putting a bigger pin in reversible. Sure, you can take it out. But then what? So there are a limited number of times you can apply this before a new block is needed. Which is exactly the criticism you make of using ca.
Right, a bigger pin can be taken out, that makes it reversible. A shim is reversible. Reversible means the repair can be undone and something different can be done. The CA that was applied to the two pianos in the other thread is not reversible. They were both told, don't even mess around with anything else one that CA is in there, you have to replace the entire pin block. Camp CA was very clear, once it has been CAed like that, don't even mess around with anything except a pinblock replacement. Why is that? Why would they argue both ways?

Originally Posted by N W
well, you can't get the bigger hole you've made back into the wood either.
But, you can easily undo the repair, and try something different. Right?

Originally Posted by N W
what is all this talk of "reversible" repairs 411. Can't anything be done that isn't reversible? That rules out most piano repairs doesn't it?
No. Most repairs done to the piano are intended to be reversible. Parts wear, they are meant to be replaced. They are not permanently CAed into the piano. That is what reversible means in the context of the piano. Even the glues that we use in the piano are reversible for a reason.

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