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Re: Casio GP-510 vs Kawai NV10 vs Yamaha AvantGrand N3x/N1x
Tenor1 #2956386 03/11/20 01:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Tenor1
Do you think it’s worth the cost since you can get a good used acoustic for the same price?


I'd argue that you can't get a comparably good used acoustic grand for the price of an N1X (and maybe an NV-10 as they are coming down in price.) I shopped extensively for acoustic grands, playing over 100 of them, and the closest I could get to something that played and sounded as good to me as the N1X was $15,000 (a good condition Yamaha C3) and with that you don't have the ability to play with headphones, which is very important to a lot of us.


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Instruments: Yamaha N1X, Kawai ES110, Roland GO:PIANO, Piano de Voyage
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Re: Casio GP-510 vs Kawai NV10 vs Yamaha AvantGrand N3x/N1x
Almaviva #2957497 03/15/20 07:35 PM
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I want to thank all of you guys for replying to my thread. I learned something.

When I retire soon I am finally going to bite the pianistic bullet. I would love to get an acoustic grand piano but I want to make sure I actually have the talent/abilities necessary to take up serious piano study before I spend tens of thousands of dollars on a grand. Thus I have decided to initially get a high-quality digital piano that has a touch and tone very close to a high-quality acoustic grand piano. (Of course a digital piano has additional advantages - it does not take up nearly as much space as a grand, can be moved more easily, is cheaper, will never need tuning or voicing, can be played while using headphones, can record, etc.)

Shortly before I posted my original thread, I began to suspect that the Casio GP-510 may not be a true "hybrid", i.e. it may not have the action of a real acoustic piano. I know that the action was designed in collaboration with Bechstein, but if the GP-510 had the genuine action of a C. Bechstein D282 concert grand, Casio would have said so plainly. Well, Casio DIDN'T say so plainly, and your replies confirmed my suspicions. Aren't these marketing guys clever? mad

Still, just because it is not a "true" hybrid piano does not make the Casio GP-510 a bad piano, as several of you guys have pointed out. Like the Casio, a number of "non-hybrid digital pianos" have actions and wooden keys similar to an acoustic instrument, and they are quite a bit cheaper than the Kawai NV10 and the Yamaha N1x/N3x. Thus I have expanded my search to include the Kawai CA-78/C79, the Roland LX-17, the Yamaha CLP-685, etc.

I will let you know what I find out, and what I decide.

Last edited by Almaviva; 03/15/20 07:37 PM.
Re: Casio GP-510 vs Kawai NV10 vs Yamaha AvantGrand N3x/N1x
Almaviva #2957511 03/15/20 08:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Almaviva
Still, just because it is not a "true" hybrid piano does not make the Casio GP-510 a bad piano, as several of you guys have pointed out.
A "true" hybrid to me would be a piano that can be played using electrical current but can also be played using zero electrical current, like an acoustic guitar with a pickup. Otherwise it's all marketing.

Re: Casio GP-510 vs Kawai NV10 vs Yamaha AvantGrand N3x/N1x
Almaviva #2957543 03/15/20 09:56 PM
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I visited my local Kawai and Yamaha dealers yesterday. I noticed that the NV10 couldn't play very loud, even with the gain set at maximum. (The AvantGrand at my local Yamaha dealer sounded almost thunderous in comparison.) I also tried the Kawai CA-78, situated right next to the NV10 in the Kawai showroom; it too sounded a bit louder than the NV10.

I have also noticed that some online reviews of the Kawai NV-10 mentioned that the piano sounded underpowered. I contacted our old friend Don Mannino (i.e., "KawaiDon") at Kawai, and asked him what was going on. He replied as follows:

"I have played the NV-10 and it has PLENTY of volume. I haven’t ever compared it side by side with the other models. I would suspect something was wrong with the one you tried. I have heard that there are speaker wires that have to be plugged in correctly when the NV-10 is assembled, and I would suspect that something is not plugged in correctly.
Please ask your dealer to check that all speakers are working correctly, and that the speaker volume knob is turned up correctly. If it still sounds quiet they need to call Kawai tech support and get some guidance."

If anybody else encounters this problem while auditioning the Kawai NV-10, you know what to do.

Last edited by Almaviva; 03/15/20 09:57 PM. Reason: punctuation
Re: Casio GP-510 vs Kawai NV10 vs Yamaha AvantGrand N3x/N1x
Almaviva #2957830 03/16/20 10:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Almaviva
I visited my local Kawai and Yamaha dealers yesterday. I noticed that the NV10 couldn't play very loud, even with the gain set at maximum. (The AvantGrand at my local Yamaha dealer sounded almost thunderous in comparison.) I also tried the Kawai CA-78, situated right next to the NV10 in the Kawai showroom; it too sounded a bit louder than the NV10.

I have also noticed that some online reviews of the Kawai NV-10 mentioned that the piano sounded underpowered. I contacted our old friend Don Mannino (i.e., "KawaiDon") at Kawai, and asked him what was going on. He replied as follows:

"I have played the NV-10 and it has PLENTY of volume. I haven’t ever compared it side by side with the other models. I would suspect something was wrong with the one you tried. I have heard that there are speaker wires that have to be plugged in correctly when the NV-10 is assembled, and I would suspect that something is not plugged in correctly.
Please ask your dealer to check that all speakers are working correctly, and that the speaker volume knob is turned up correctly. If it still sounds quiet they need to call Kawai tech support and get some guidance."

If anybody else encounters this problem while auditioning the Kawai NV-10, you know what to do.


I agree with Don - there must be something wrong with that NV10. NV10 gets really really loud! Almost deafening loud.

Osho


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Re: Casio GP-510 vs Kawai NV10 vs Yamaha AvantGrand N3x/N1x
Almaviva #2957836 03/16/20 11:16 PM
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Hello Almaviva,

Originally Posted by Almaviva
I visited my local Kawai and Yamaha dealers yesterday. I noticed that the NV10 couldn't play very loud, even with the gain set at maximum.


Just to clarify, by "gain" are you referring to the main "VOLUME" knob on the front panel, underneath the keyboard?

There is also a "LINE IN LEVEL" knob on a separate rear panel, which is responsible for controlling the LINE IN volume level.

https://www.kawai-global.com/data/manuals/novus/NV10_EN_R103.pdf#page=12

Kind regards,
James
x


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Re: Casio GP-510 vs Kawai NV10 vs Yamaha AvantGrand N3x/N1x
Kawai James #2957986 03/17/20 12:03 PM
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Yes, James, I was referring to the volume knob underneath the keyboard. I mentioned Don Mannino's possible explanation to the Kawai saleswoman, and she said that she would get back to me.

Last edited by Almaviva; 03/17/20 12:08 PM. Reason: elaboration.
Re: Casio GP-510 vs Kawai NV10 vs Yamaha AvantGrand N3x/N1x
Chrispy #2957995 03/17/20 12:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Chrispy
Originally Posted by Tenor1
Do you think it’s worth the cost since you can get a good used acoustic for the same price?


I'd argue that you can't get a comparably good used acoustic grand for the price of an N1X (and maybe an NV-10 as they are coming down in price.) I shopped extensively for acoustic grands, playing over 100 of them, and the closest I could get to something that played and sounded as good to me as the N1X was $15,000 (a good condition Yamaha C3) and with that you don't have the ability to play with headphones, which is very important to a lot of us.


Thanks for your info, it was something I wondered about. Here is the Los Angeles area you CAN get good deals on used acoustic pianos, that are find instruments. We are more fortunate that other areas. Someone I know of in Vancouver had to move and couldn’t take his Steinway, which he loved, and it went for $3,500. Those types of deals are rare, but do happens as in this case. This sale happened just 4 weeks ago.



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Re: Casio GP-510 vs Kawai NV10 vs Yamaha AvantGrand N3x/N1x
Almaviva #2958175 03/17/20 09:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Almaviva
Yes, James, I was referring to the volume knob underneath the keyboard.


Okay, thanks for confirming this point.

Kind regards,
James
x


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Re: Casio GP-510 vs Kawai NV10 vs Yamaha AvantGrand N3x/N1x
Almaviva #3050225 11/27/20 05:38 PM
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I'm new but OP asked for which of these three HYBRIDs is best but one of them is not a true hybrid. What's wrong with pointing that out ?

On a car forum is someone asked which electric car was better, the telsa of the Toyota Camry Hybrid, no one would have a problem if people pointed out that a Camry Hybrid isn't an electric in the way a telsa is.

Re: Casio GP-510 vs Kawai NV10 vs Yamaha AvantGrand N3x/N1x
Drthotho #3050233 11/27/20 06:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Drthotho
I'm new but OP asked for which of these three HYBRIDs is best but one of them is not a true hybrid. What's wrong with pointing that out ?

On a car forum is someone asked which electric car was better, the telsa of the Toyota Camry Hybrid, no one would have a problem if people pointed out that a Camry Hybrid isn't an electric in the way a telsa is.

1. Some people like the Casio and are sensitive to corrections that make it seem inferior.

2. Some people have been here a while and have seen previous threads with substantive questions about the Casio devolve into debates about whether it is a "hybrid" or not, over and over again.

3. Sometimes it really doesn't matter whether it's a hybrid or not (when the discussion is not about the action).


Yamaha P-85, P-105, CP50, Kawai MP11 || Kawai NV-10
Re: Casio GP-510 vs Kawai NV10 vs Yamaha AvantGrand N3x/N1x
Almaviva #3050261 11/27/20 07:43 PM
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Wow, how much is it worth ?

Re: Casio GP-510 vs Kawai NV10 vs Yamaha AvantGrand N3x/N1x
Almaviva #3050381 11/28/20 07:54 AM
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Originally Posted by Almaviva
Has anybody compared these three hybrid pianos, either on this forum... If they have, which piano do they prefer and why?
I have compared the GP-510, N1X, and N3X. Unfortunately the dealer with the NV10 had a technician in with the NV10 in pieces on the ground frown

The N1X and N3X have full acoustic key actions - but they removed the acoustic damper action. So they're a hybrid action.

The GP-510 doesn't have a full acoustic key action - they removed the escapement (let-off + repetition lever) - and they also removed the acoustic damper action. So that's a hybrid action.

The NV-10 has both a full acoustic key action + an acoustic damper action. So that's not a hybrid action at all.

The main trade off between acoustic action (NV-10) and less acoustic actions (GP-510) is the need, frequency, & cost of maintenance/action regulation. I find the N1X/N3X strike the right balance in the middle smile

P.S. note that another definition of hybrid exists where a piano combines both speakers and strings (trans-acoustic pianos).

Last edited by Burkey; 11/28/20 08:04 AM.

Pianos are one of the best human inventions of the past 320 years - help evangelize the magic!
Re: Casio GP-510 vs Kawai NV10 vs Yamaha AvantGrand N3x/N1x
Almaviva #3050386 11/28/20 08:14 AM
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Almaviva uses the expression « hybrid pianos », then NV10 is in the same set than N1X, since Kawai remove the strings and the soundboard. wink

But yes, Kawai has a complete action, Yamaha a less complete one (no damper weight), and Casio a far less complete one.


But the question of Almaviva is about which one is better : the « true » meaning of hybrid is not relevant and has been discussed heavily in an other thread.

My point of view is that I prefer a lot the N1X over GP500. Unfortunately, I haven’t tried the NV10. I have found the GP500 feeling more like a Clavinova (NWX, GrandTouch). Not bad, but not exceptional.


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Re: Casio GP-510 vs Kawai NV10 vs Yamaha AvantGrand N3x/N1x
Almaviva #3050417 11/28/20 09:55 AM
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For a second, I thought about replacing my N2 with GP500. When I played it, I knew immediately it could not compete with my N2. I played it for about 20 minutes. It started to feel pretty good but still a digital piano feel.

I also tried the Kawai and of course it felt great although I felt the initial inertia a little heavy and was not as real as N2, which feels to me like a real grand. I also think the Spatial Acoustic Sampling is more advanced. Hey, I could easily live with NV10 if it was only one on market. I also play mostly jazz with some classical, so I've played enough bad pianos to think the N2 is gold. Having damper weight, though, would be great.

As I said before the N2 is a great practice instrument.


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Re: Casio GP-510 vs Kawai NV10 vs Yamaha AvantGrand N3x/N1x
Drthotho #3050512 11/28/20 02:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Burkey
Originally Posted by Almaviva
Has anybody compared these three hybrid pianos, either on this forum... If they have, which piano do they prefer and why?
I have compared the GP-510, N1X, and N3X. Unfortunately the dealer with the NV10 had a technician in with the NV10 in pieces on the ground frown

The N1X and N3X have full acoustic key actions - but they removed the acoustic damper action. So they're a hybrid action.

The GP-510 doesn't have a full acoustic key action - they removed the escapement (let-off + repetition lever) - and they also removed the acoustic damper action. So that's a hybrid action.

The NV-10 has both a full acoustic key action + an acoustic damper action. So that's not a hybrid action at all.


The main trade off between acoustic action (NV-10) and less acoustic actions (GP-510) is the need, frequency, & cost of maintenance/action regulation. I find the N1X/N3X strike the right balance in the middle smile

P.S. note that another definition of hybrid exists where a piano combines both speakers and strings (trans-acoustic pianos).

I think you meant to write that the gp510 does not have a full action and therefore not a hybrid and the nv10 has more of a full action and therefore a hybrid...

Originally Posted by Drthotho
Wow, how much is it worth ?

In Canada retailers list the gp310 for$4999 and the gp510 for $6999 plus tax. Regardless of how you classify them I found them quite good and comparable to Yamaha clp 775/785 and Kawai ca79/99 models ...

Re: Casio GP-510 vs Kawai NV10 vs Yamaha AvantGrand N3x/N1x
Farfisakid #3050517 11/28/20 02:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Farfisakid
I think you meant to write that the gp510 does not have a full action and therefore not a hybrid and the nv10 has more of a full action and therefore a hybrid...
No - that's not what I meant.

Firstly, the GP-510 does have a 'full action'. I think you meant to say 'does not have a full acoustic action'?

Secondly, hybrid means: 'composed of different elements'. Last time I checked, the GP-510 action is composed of both acoustic and non-acoustic elements. So as I made clear: the GP-510 does have a hybrid key action.

Lastly, no the NV10 does not have 'more of a full action' - it has a 100% actual real acoustic action, not 'more of' one! Therefore the NV10 key action is not hybrid in any way whatsoever - its key action is entirely acoustic.

Last edited by Burkey; 11/28/20 02:48 PM.

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Re: Casio GP-510 vs Kawai NV10 vs Yamaha AvantGrand N3x/N1x
Burkey #3050520 11/28/20 02:53 PM
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Sorry my bad I thought you were referring to the entire piano and not just the action as most people on this forum seem to hate when people refer to the Casio gp310/510 models as hybrids.

Re: Casio GP-510 vs Kawai NV10 vs Yamaha AvantGrand N3x/N1x
Almaviva #3050529 11/28/20 03:13 PM
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I don’t think this discussion is quite meaningful but piano keys, piano actions and damper actions are three different parts. Casio only uses real piano keys but no action. Both Yamaha and Kauai have full acoustic grand piano action, regardless of the pedal mechanism.


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Re: Casio GP-510 vs Kawai NV10 vs Yamaha AvantGrand N3x/N1x
Harpuia #3050531 11/28/20 03:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Harpuia
Both Yamaha and Kauai have full acoustic grand piano action, regardless of the pedal mechanism.
No - piano action includes the damper. Only the Kawai NV10 and NV5 have full acoustic actions.

What you are referring to is just the 'key action', not the complete action.

This is why you must be very careful and very specific when you use the word hybrid to describe parts of a piano. If you can't be bothered doing that, then its best to simply avoid using the word hybrid.

Last edited by Burkey; 11/28/20 03:22 PM.

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