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Re: Why is long sustain a good thing?
pianoloverus #3049313 11/25/20 09:38 AM
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Originally Posted by pianoloverus
Originally Posted by Emery Wang
Thank you Steve and Max. That answers my question. To be clear, I'm not talking about poor sustain. I think we can all agree a poor sustain sounds bad. Again, what I'm talking about is good sustain (say 10 seconds) vs. very good sustain (say 20 seconds). I think in most cases the 10 second piano would not be deficient simply due to the length of its sustain. However, if longer sustain is indicative of better soundboard health, terminations, hammers voicing, etc., then I expect those would make the longer sustain piano sound better overall.

So my takeaway from this thread is that longer sustain is desirable because of what it may indicate about the overall condition (and perhaps quality in workmanship) of the piano. Perhaps I should have titled this thread "what does length of sustain indicate about a piano" instead.
I'm think you're completely missing the point despite what Keith, I and others have said.
1. Good sustain, in and of itself, is a good and important thing. Good sustain is one of the things that makes a piano sound better. Good sustain is not important because it indicates other good things about the piano. That backwards thinking.

2. There is no such thing as 10 second vs. 20 second sustain unless perhaps if you play a note in the lower bass. The bass sustain is irrelevant because it's always sufficient except on a horrible piano. Sustain is critical in the 5th and 6th octaves(the area Keith described) because that is the area where melody notes are most often played and it's getting nearer the top of the range where notes always sustain less vs. lower notes. In that area very few notes(Only the low end of that area) on very few pianos will sustain even 10 seconds which would be considered fantastic sustain.

3. The only part of the sustain that makes a difference is the usable portion of the sustain. Sustain should not be measured by how long it takes a note to become inaudible. You don't specifically say you are thinking of sustain like that but it appears to be that from your posts. If a note drops off in volume very quickly and precipitously after the attack but remains barely audible at a very low level for a long time that is not good sustain.

4. There are plenty of piano, even sometimes some high end pianos, that have poor sustain in the 5th and 6th octave and it's not because they only sustain for 10 seconds and not 20 seconds as you stated. Their useful portion of the sustain is far less than 10 seconds. Those pianos cannot play a melodic line in that area as legato, connected, or singing as a piano with better sustain.
Which high end pianos have poor sustain in the 5th and 6th octave?

I think if a buyer just looks for a well designed piano with good sustain he/she covers all his bases. Sustain is a feature of a piano that in a well designed one should be pretty even across all octaves where it is expected. After that, the pianist makes the music.


Working on:

Bach/Busoni Chaconne in D minor BWV 1004
Preludio: Bach/Rachmaninoff E Major Sonata for Violin
Chopin: G Minor Ballade


Shigeru Kawai SK2
Kawai VPC-1
Re: Why is long sustain a good thing?
Jethro #3049317 11/25/20 09:53 AM
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Originally Posted by Jethro
Which high end pianos have poor sustain in the 5th and 6th octave?

I think if a buyer just looks for a well designed piano with good sustain he/she covers all his bases. Sustain is a feature of a piano that in a well designed one should be pretty even across all octaves where it is expected. After that, the pianist makes the music.
It's not uncommon for Steinways to have that problem. This, of course, doesn't mean every Steinway has the problem. I've played other high end pianos that sometimes have a sustain problem but am not going to name any more makes. Piano with mostly good sustain can have a few notes that don't sustain well.

Sustain is not at all even across all octaves(the bass in much greater than the tenor which is much greater than the treble) and also not even in just the critical 5th and 6th octave. Within that two octave region the sustain in generally quite a bit less at the top compared to the bottom.

Re: Why is long sustain a good thing?
Emery Wang #3049326 11/25/20 10:19 AM
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Interesting discussion. In my mind, a great piano should be able to sing. Vocal training for singers includes how to be able to hold and sing a note over several measures. In other words, great sustain. It takes great control and strength especially if the sustained note is high or very low. I don’t follow opera stars but a soprano or tenor who can’t hold a note through a few measures would be dismissed. A piano with little sustain makes it harder to play Moonlight Sonata because the pianist must use the sustain pedal to achieve the dreamy effect intended by Beethoven rather than letting the piano sing with some skilled feathering of the sustain pedal by the player. I timed the sustain on each of my pianos but truthfully I can tell by playing a piano whether it has adequate sustain. Yes I know there’s no use of sustain in the upper treble because those notes have no dampers.

I find myself wondering why long beautiful sustain wouldn’t be the goal of all piano makers but apparently there is some difference in opinion on this subject so again PW is teaching me things. Thanks for the thread.


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Re: Why is long sustain a good thing?
pianoloverus #3049329 11/25/20 10:22 AM
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Originally Posted by pianoloverus
Originally Posted by Jethro
Which high end pianos have poor sustain in the 5th and 6th octave?

I think if a buyer just looks for a well designed piano with good sustain he/she covers all his bases. Sustain is a feature of a piano that in a well designed one should be pretty even across all octaves where it is expected. After that, the pianist makes the music.
It's not uncommon for Steinways to have that problem. This, of course, doesn't mean every Steinway has the problem. I've played other high end pianos that sometimes have a sustain problem but am not going to name any more makes. Piano with mostly good sustain can have a few notes that don't sustain well.

Sustain is not at all even across all octaves(the bass in much greater than the tenor which is much greater than the treble) and also not even in just the critical 5th and 6th octave. Within that two octave region the sustain in generally quite a bit less at the top compared to the bottom.
Yes the varying degrees of sustain from octave to octave is understood, but I think in a well designed new piano sustain should be good where it is expected- from a buyers perspective. I wouldn't want a "new" piano that had good sustain in the 5th and 6th octaves but was lacking elsewhere as that would be an indicator to me that it either wasn't a good design or the workmanship was poor. From a rebuilder's perspective like Keith, I could imagine if he is rebuilding a 75 year old piano with a compromised bridge, soundboard, pins etc. he may focus on improving the sustain and performance of the octaves that are typically most pertinent to making music, but on a new piano I expect the piano to be stable across all octaves with any problem areas worked over by a tech.


Working on:

Bach/Busoni Chaconne in D minor BWV 1004
Preludio: Bach/Rachmaninoff E Major Sonata for Violin
Chopin: G Minor Ballade


Shigeru Kawai SK2
Kawai VPC-1
Re: Why is long sustain a good thing?
pianoloverus #3049337 11/25/20 11:02 AM
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Originally Posted by pianoloverus
Originally Posted by doremi
Originally Posted by pianoloverus
Originally Posted by doremi
If you play usual classical repertoire ... is the sustain issue not overrated?

Period pianos have shorter sustain than a middle-of-the-line modern piano. So, if period pianos can be made to sing the songs that were composed on them, then those songs not wanting to sing on a modern piano is due to the player, I'd say eek
What does "can be made to sing the songs that were composed for them" mean?

You can't even quote me accurately.
My accidental replacing "on" with "for" has nothing to do with my question.

3 accidents? all 3 changing the meaning of the quote?


I am 'doremi' because I play scales smile
My teacher is 'domisol' because he plays chords shocked
Re: Why is long sustain a good thing?
Jethro #3049339 11/25/20 11:10 AM
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Originally Posted by Jethro
Originally Posted by pianoloverus
Originally Posted by Jethro
Which high end pianos have poor sustain in the 5th and 6th octave?

I think if a buyer just looks for a well designed piano with good sustain he/she covers all his bases. Sustain is a feature of a piano that in a well designed one should be pretty even across all octaves where it is expected. After that, the pianist makes the music.
It's not uncommon for Steinways to have that problem. This, of course, doesn't mean every Steinway has the problem. I've played other high end pianos that sometimes have a sustain problem but am not going to name any more makes. Piano with mostly good sustain can have a few notes that don't sustain well.

Sustain is not at all even across all octaves(the bass in much greater than the tenor which is much greater than the treble) and also not even in just the critical 5th and 6th octave. Within that two octave region the sustain in generally quite a bit less at the top compared to the bottom.
Yes the varying degrees of sustain from octave to octave is understood, but I think in a well designed new piano sustain should be good where it is expected- from a buyers perspective. I wouldn't want a "new" piano that had good sustain in the 5th and 6th octaves but was lacking elsewhere as that would be an indicator to me that it either wasn't a good design or the workmanship was poor. From a rebuilder's perspective like Keith, I could imagine if he is rebuilding a 75 year old piano with a compromised bridge, soundboard, pins etc. he may focus on improving the sustain and performance of the octaves that are typically most pertinent to making music, but on a new piano I expect the piano to be stable across all octaves with any problem areas worked over by a tech.
You're talking about a hypothetical(a new piano with good sustain in the 5th and 6th octave but poor sustain n the lower half) that to the best of my knowleldge doesn't exist except on maybe the worst piano, worst rebuilds, or some 100 year old junker...basically a defective piano. IOW a piano with good sustain in the 5th and 6th octave but poor sustain elsewhere doesn't occur unless the piano is truly defective(much worse than just an inexpensive low end model).

My guess is Keith would be particularly concerned/careful to make the sustain good as possible in the 5th and 6th octaves but certainly would not neglect the sustain any where else. It's just that lower half of a piano is a non issue because sustain is automatically good there. IOW your comment that "but on a new piano I expect the piano to be stable across all octaves with any problem areas worked over by a tech" would apply to any good rebuilt piano also.

Last edited by pianoloverus; 11/25/20 11:20 AM.
Re: Why is long sustain a good thing?
pianoloverus #3049402 11/25/20 01:59 PM
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Originally Posted by pianoloverus
Originally Posted by Jethro
Originally Posted by pianoloverus
Originally Posted by Jethro
Which high end pianos have poor sustain in the 5th and 6th octave?

I think if a buyer just looks for a well designed piano with good sustain he/she covers all his bases. Sustain is a feature of a piano that in a well designed one should be pretty even across all octaves where it is expected. After that, the pianist makes the music.
It's not uncommon for Steinways to have that problem. This, of course, doesn't mean every Steinway has the problem. I've played other high end pianos that sometimes have a sustain problem but am not going to name any more makes. Piano with mostly good sustain can have a few notes that don't sustain well.

Sustain is not at all even across all octaves(the bass in much greater than the tenor which is much greater than the treble) and also not even in just the critical 5th and 6th octave. Within that two octave region the sustain in generally quite a bit less at the top compared to the bottom.
Yes the varying degrees of sustain from octave to octave is understood, but I think in a well designed new piano sustain should be good where it is expected- from a buyers perspective. I wouldn't want a "new" piano that had good sustain in the 5th and 6th octaves but was lacking elsewhere as that would be an indicator to me that it either wasn't a good design or the workmanship was poor. From a rebuilder's perspective like Keith, I could imagine if he is rebuilding a 75 year old piano with a compromised bridge, soundboard, pins etc. he may focus on improving the sustain and performance of the octaves that are typically most pertinent to making music, but on a new piano I expect the piano to be stable across all octaves with any problem areas worked over by a tech.
You're talking about a hypothetical(a new piano with good sustain in the 5th and 6th octave but poor sustain n the lower half) that to the best of my knowleldge doesn't exist except on maybe the worst piano, worst rebuilds, or some 100 year old junker...basically a defective piano. IOW a piano with good sustain in the 5th and 6th octave but poor sustain elsewhere doesn't occur unless the piano is truly defective(much worse than just an inexpensive low end model).

My guess is Keith would be particularly concerned/careful to make the sustain good as possible in the 5th and 6th octaves but certainly would not neglect the sustain any where else. It's just that lower half of a piano is a non issue because sustain is automatically good there. IOW your comment that "but on a new piano I expect the piano to be stable across all octaves with any problem areas worked over by a tech" would apply to any good rebuilt piano also.
I think I see what you are trying to say. You are basically saying if one is auditioning a piano be particularly concerned about the 5th and 6th octaves as that is where most melodies are played and for the most part the other octaves are of less concern because typically they are not problematic. But based upon all that has been written thus far this idea of a good sustain in a piano is much more complex and harder to achieve than I imagined. I didn't realize until reading Steve Cohen's post that sustain can also affect tone. So for sustain to be "good" not only should it be long but it should be smooth going from one key to the next. So since sustain decreases as the speaking length of a string shortens that also means the tone must be changing as he sustain decreases. So what a manufacturer would want I imagine is a smooth linear gradient of decreasing sustain as you move from the lower registers of the piano to upper registers. If the sustain is uneven as you go up or down the keyboard the tone will also be uneven and who wants a piano with an uneven tone? I would think you would also not want a sustain that drops of suddenly as it it approaches the 5th and 6th octave as the the tone will drop as well. Everything should be linear. I don't know, maybe what I just wrote is a bunch of malarkey but I with all the parts that have to be kept in check producing a smooth sustain seems to be an incredible feat of engineering.


Working on:

Bach/Busoni Chaconne in D minor BWV 1004
Preludio: Bach/Rachmaninoff E Major Sonata for Violin
Chopin: G Minor Ballade


Shigeru Kawai SK2
Kawai VPC-1
Re: Why is long sustain a good thing?
pianoloverus #3049407 11/25/20 02:13 PM
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Originally Posted by pianoloverus
My guess is Keith would be particularly concerned/careful to make the sustain good as possible in the 5th and 6th octaves but certainly would not neglect the sustain any where else.

So, yes and no. We for sure pay extra attention to make sure the 5th and 6th octaves are strong in the Steinways we rebuild. service, and/or offer for sale This is a known trouble area, not just in Steinways. However, we are much more concerned with the type of attack, dynamic range, color variety, bloom, and how close the volume is of the lingering sound after the attack to the attack. These are all more important than the sustain.

Pianos are always robbing Peter to pay Paul. Downbearing is a great example. Having the largest dynamic range or the longest possible sustain would be a choice one would have to make in setting the downbearing if either of those outcomes were your goal. You have to know what you want and you have to have frankly done a lot of experimenting with different amounts of downbearing on similar/same pianos to even begin to get a feeling for this. And that is of course only one part of a very tricky recipe. You want the attack to be a certain way, the sound after the attack to be a certain way, the type of sound itself to be a certain way. You may sacrifice sustain for a less percussive attack for instance if you have "enough" sustain but want a more singing sound which comes from the attack and the sound after the attack and how the pianist can control this into a singing line.

Higher impedance ( stiffer ) belly systems take longer for the tone to develop after the attack but can also keep the energy in the board longer as well. I generally prefer a more flexible belly system, but, every now and then I hear an amazing piano with a very stiff belly system and am surprised. Pianos are endlessly complicated and surprising and frustrating. Just when you are sure you know something.............

Anyways, for me, the bottom line is play the piano. Don't worry about sustain unless you are playing something and the sound dies before you want it to. Good pianists test pianos with repertoire they know well. When the piano allows them to do what they want, or even inspires more out of them, they like that piano. When the piano does not allow them to do what they want, that is a problem that may or may not be able to be addressed either with further work on the piano, a slight change in the pianist's approach, or even a changed expectation on the part of the pianist.


Keith D Kerman
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Re: Why is long sustain a good thing?
Emery Wang #3049413 11/25/20 02:27 PM
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Here is a 1989 Steinway D we completely rebuilt. I would argue the piano sings beautifully allowing the pianist to be extremely expressive in this prelude by Bach.
I have no idea or memory as to whether or not the sustain was particularly long ( the piano left PianoCraft a while ago), but I have no doubt that it would sustain more than long enough in any piece of standard repertoire to allow a demanding pianist to interpret without limitation.



Keith D Kerman
PianoCraft
Rebuilding & Sales - vintage and used Steinway, Mason & Hamlin
New Steingraeber, Estonia, Baldwin
www.pianocraft.net
check out www.sitkadoc.com/ and www.vimeo.com/203188875
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Re: Why is long sustain a good thing?
Emery Wang #3049416 11/25/20 02:36 PM
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One aspect of sustain has not been mentioned but is apparent to those of us who tune. The tuning of unisons includes monitoring the sustain of each of the two or three strings. It involves string levelling, hammer felt shaping and voicing and mating to the levelled strings. Thereafter the second string is tuned to the first whilst listening for the longest sustain of the pair. The third string is then tuned to the pair whilst monitoring the overall note sustain. The note being tuned may then result in the longest possible sustain but not all strings of the choir will have the same frequency. The long sustain in tuning is the part of the waveform envelope after the attack and decay time. The tuner listens to ensure that the sustain is linear and does not decay due to cancellation coupling effect with adjacent choir strings.

Last edited by Beemer; 11/25/20 02:36 PM.

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Re: Why is long sustain a good thing?
Emery Wang #3049418 11/25/20 02:36 PM
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@Jethro: people who measure piano sounds will tell you nothing is linear. Harmonics (partials) do not follow an exact arithmetical progression. The frequency response of a soundboard has complex maxima and minima. And who knows what resonances in the case, the plate and the rest of the piano lie in wait to drain energy out of the note you just played.

@OP: you are right. Sound decay is a good indicator of condition. Tightening some screws and bolts, brushing string bearing points, and a bit of elbow grease here and there, can have a dramatic effect on tone and sustain of an older piano. And, I suspect, on some newer ones too.

Last edited by Withindale; 11/25/20 02:38 PM.

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Re: Why is long sustain a good thing?
Jethro #3049419 11/25/20 02:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Jethro
But based upon all that has been written thus far this idea of a good sustain in a piano is much more complex and harder to achieve than I imagined. I didn't realize until reading Steve Cohen's post that sustain can also affect tone. So for sustain to be "good" not only should it be long but it should be smooth going from one key to the next. So since sustain decreases as the speaking length of a string shortens that also means the tone must be changing as he sustain decreases. So what a manufacturer would want I imagine is a smooth linear gradient of decreasing sustain as you move from the lower registers of the piano to upper registers. If the sustain is uneven as you go up or down the keyboard the tone will also be uneven and who wants a piano with an uneven tone? I would think you would also not want a sustain that drops of suddenly as it it approaches the 5th and 6th octave as the the tone will drop as well. Everything should be linear. I don't know, maybe what I just wrote is a bunch of malarkey but I with all the parts that have to be kept in check producing a smooth sustain seems to be an incredible feat of engineering.
1. Sustain is one of the characteristics of a piano's tone. I wouldn't say it "affects" tone.
2. The idea of sustain isn't complex but achieving good sustain is complicated.
3. One generally doesn't have to worry about what you call smooth sustain because the notes automatically decrease in sustain as one moves up the keyboard. There can be some individual notes that stick out in relation to their neighbors as having much longer or much shorter sustain. A good tech may be able to fix those notes.

Re: Why is long sustain a good thing?
Withindale #3049430 11/25/20 03:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Withindale
@Jethro: people who measure piano sounds will tell you nothing is linear. Harmonics (partials) do not follow an exact arithmetical progression. The frequency response of a soundboard has complex maxima and minima. And who knows what resonances in the case, the plate and the rest of the piano lie in wait to drain energy out of the note you just played.

@OP: you are right. Sound decay is a good indicator of condition. Tightening some screws and bolts, brushing string bearing points, and a bit of elbow grease here and there, can have a dramatic effect on tone and sustain of an older piano. And, I suspect, on some newer ones too.
I kind of meant to use the term "linear" loosely. I meant a "smooth" transition from one note to the next. Whether this is an actual issue or not. I have no idea, but just a thought.


Working on:

Bach/Busoni Chaconne in D minor BWV 1004
Preludio: Bach/Rachmaninoff E Major Sonata for Violin
Chopin: G Minor Ballade


Shigeru Kawai SK2
Kawai VPC-1
Re: Why is long sustain a good thing?
pianoloverus #3049433 11/25/20 03:12 PM
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Originally Posted by pianoloverus
Originally Posted by Jethro
But based upon all that has been written thus far this idea of a good sustain in a piano is much more complex and harder to achieve than I imagined. I didn't realize until reading Steve Cohen's post that sustain can also affect tone. So for sustain to be "good" not only should it be long but it should be smooth going from one key to the next. So since sustain decreases as the speaking length of a string shortens that also means the tone must be changing as he sustain decreases. So what a manufacturer would want I imagine is a smooth linear gradient of decreasing sustain as you move from the lower registers of the piano to upper registers. If the sustain is uneven as you go up or down the keyboard the tone will also be uneven and who wants a piano with an uneven tone? I would think you would also not want a sustain that drops of suddenly as it it approaches the 5th and 6th octave as the the tone will drop as well. Everything should be linear. I don't know, maybe what I just wrote is a bunch of malarkey but I with all the parts that have to be kept in check producing a smooth sustain seems to be an incredible feat of engineering.
1. Sustain is one of the characteristics of a piano's tone. I wouldn't say it "affects" tone.
2. The idea of sustain isn't complex but achieving good sustain is complicated.
3. One generally doesn't have to worry about what you call smooth sustain because the notes automatically decrease in sustain as one moves up the keyboard. There can be some individual notes that stick out in relation to their neighbors as having much longer or much shorter sustain. A good tech may be able to fix those notes.
1. I think sustain describes how a tone changes over time so I think it does affect tone.
2. Agreed
3. That's kind of what I was saying, but there seems to be a general agreement that the 5th and 6th octaves are regions of the piano where sustain drops off.


Working on:

Bach/Busoni Chaconne in D minor BWV 1004
Preludio: Bach/Rachmaninoff E Major Sonata for Violin
Chopin: G Minor Ballade


Shigeru Kawai SK2
Kawai VPC-1
Re: Why is long sustain a good thing?
Emery Wang #3049450 11/25/20 04:25 PM
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In reconsidering #1 above. I think sustain does not directly affect tone but if I understood it correctly the downbearing can effect sustain and at the same time it can affect tone by affecting the bridges ability to function and accurately transmit vibrations to the soundboard. So both sustain and tone may be affected by the same parameter. Sustain also may alter perception of tone by introducing sympathetic resonances with neighboring strings. This is my understanding but open to correction.


Working on:

Bach/Busoni Chaconne in D minor BWV 1004
Preludio: Bach/Rachmaninoff E Major Sonata for Violin
Chopin: G Minor Ballade


Shigeru Kawai SK2
Kawai VPC-1
Re: Why is long sustain a good thing?
Beemer #3049472 11/25/20 05:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Beemer
One aspect of sustain has not been mentioned but is apparent to those of us who tune. The tuning of unisons includes monitoring the sustain of each of the two or three strings. It involves string levelling, hammer felt shaping and voicing and mating to the levelled strings. Thereafter the second string is tuned to the first whilst listening for the longest sustain of the pair. The third string is then tuned to the pair whilst monitoring the overall note sustain. The note being tuned may then result in the longest possible sustain but not all strings of the choir will have the same frequency. The long sustain in tuning is the part of the waveform envelope after the attack and decay time. The tuner listens to ensure that the sustain is linear and does not decay due to cancellation coupling effect with adjacent choir strings.

You've just become my friend for life.

Now here is an example of what we've been discussing in terms of sustain the whole time, when in fact we are talking about the decay rate. You can't achieve long sustain with a too fast decay rate, so that's where the story begins: Identifying individual strings that have an unusually fast decay rate, resulting in "sustain holes" particularly in the treble section where singing is needed.



It's only 40 seconds, but unless you're deaf you'll immediately be hit with the one note that stands out like a sore thumb in terms of too fast decay, thus lack of sustain and completely out of line with the rest of the adjacent notes. Painful, isn't it? This is a 150k concert grand, brand new - and it has just been transported from one location to another and hasn't yet settled into the new environment yet. It also means that the strings are pretty new and still far away from having reached an equilibrium in terms of tension distribution that is the hallmark or a great and well maintained piano.

Took me 2-3 minutes to play around with the individual strings among that particularly unison - and now it's just perfect.

And I am not even a tuner.

Last edited by OE1FEU; 11/25/20 05:59 PM.
Re: Why is long sustain a good thing?
Emery Wang #3049490 11/25/20 07:13 PM
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I heard two notes with a fast decay.

I found it interesting when i recently read a book by Caruso ( a famous singer). He describes attack and sustain and what they should be like. Attack basically has 3 qualities" harsh, Pure, and breathy. Obviously pure is what is desired. Sustain basically has two qualities. Decay and Lively. The Italians called a lively sustain Messa di Voce ( placing of the voice) <p,F,p>. As human qualities decay is death, which is the opposite of life. Trying to build a lively sustain is very difficult, but it is possible in the piano when all the elements are working harmoniously. Otherwise, most pianos seem to work fine when a decay is long. A note with a quick decay makes a piano sound very dry and the action feel cumbersome.

In the last couple years I have been focusing on obtaining a messa di voce (lively) sustain. This research has caused me to make soundboards lighter, make the ribs asymmetrical to focus driving points, change the downbearing scheme, use different materials for string rests, the bridges, and more. One big improvement towards getting a longer sustain was the change to the downbearing. I believe most boards are carrying too much load that restricts the sustain.

As mentioned a long sustain isn't so necessary in a piano for music sake, but the fact that its available means the piano is a really good singing piano

-chris.


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Re: Why is long sustain a good thing?
Chernobieff Piano #3049503 11/25/20 07:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Chernobieff Piano
As mentioned a long sustain isn't so necessary in a piano for music sake, but the fact that its available means the piano is a really good singing piano.
If a long sustain isn't necessary for the music's sake, why would it be necessary at all? I think many would a equate a good singing piano with one that had good sustain.

Re: Why is long sustain a good thing?
Chernobieff Piano #3049515 11/25/20 08:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Chernobieff Piano
In the last couple years I have been focusing on obtaining a messa di voce (lively) sustain. This research has caused me to make soundboards lighter, make the ribs asymmetrical to focus driving points, change the downbearing scheme, use different materials for string rests, the bridges, and more. One big improvement towards getting a longer sustain was the change to the downbearing. I believe most boards are carrying too much load that restricts the sustain.

Interesting


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Re: Why is long sustain a good thing?
Chernobieff Piano #3049523 11/25/20 08:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Chernobieff Piano
In the last couple years I have been focusing on obtaining a messa di voce (lively) sustain. This research has caused me to make soundboards lighter, make the ribs asymmetrical to focus driving points, change the downbearing scheme, use different materials for string rests, the bridges, and more. One big improvement towards getting a longer sustain was the change to the downbearing. I believe most boards are carrying too much load that restricts the sustain.

-chris.

I hear three notes, BTW, but that's because I play and played the piano on a daily basis more or less - and have direct comparison to three different but identical models of that concert grand. Altogether there were 5 of them in the two upper treble section under the capo d'Astro. One was particularly noticeable, which is why I posted the short video here. All of these were easily adjusted to a perfect ADSR with a little tuning, which is normal for a brand new piano that's been moved between different locations.

Your beliefs not withstanding, however, why wouldn't you either share your findings as Open Source in terms of hard data or contact a manufacturer to verify you supposed incredible improvements and monetize on them?

We do work with external experts to improve our design, you know.

Last edited by OE1FEU; 11/25/20 08:56 PM.
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