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Re: Lisitsa records Einaudi album
bennevis #3041001 10/30/20 09:40 AM
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Originally Posted by bennevis
Originally Posted by dogperson
Originally Posted by bennevis
OK, perhaps using Mozart to compare with The Maiden's Prayer wasn't the best example. I was looking for a piano piece written in a simple style, and Mozart immediately came to mind.......but even his earliest pieces (composed when he was six) shows him modulating to the dominant, and using liberal accidentals in his melodies too. Though - as always with Wolfie - you don't actually notice those accidentals, because they sound so utterly natural, as if they couldn't possibly be written any other way.

Maybe that's what marks him out as a great composer: the Art that conceals Art. Or - surface simplicity masking great complexity and ingenuity.



OK, I've given my reason above.

Now - challenge me grin.


Please stop asking for proof that Einaudi is comparable to Mozart. Many composers are not, but can still be enjoyed. You don’t like Einaudi? Fine, don’t like him.
Huh??

I wasn't talking about Einaudi.

Please listen to the links I gave, before jumping the gun.


Sorry, missed the link


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Re: Lisitsa records Einaudi album
bennevis #3041009 10/30/20 10:06 AM
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Originally Posted by bennevis
I was looking for a piano piece written in a simple style, and Mozart immediately came to mind.......but even his earliest pieces (composed when he was six) shows him modulating to the dominant, and using liberal accidentals in his melodies too. Though - as always with Wolfie - you don't actually notice those accidentals, because they sound so utterly natural, as if they couldn't possibly be written any other way.

Maybe that's what marks him out as a great composer: the Art that conceals Art. Or - surface simplicity masking great complexity and ingenuity.
While this may be true, using this to determine the quality of music is an entirely subjective decision.
Other people may consider music of higher quality that does not try to mask complexity, but is more "in your face".
Who am I to tell them they're wrong?

My point still stands. There is no good or bad music. Or more accurately, there is no objectively good or bad music, since everybody can decide for themselves what makes music good.


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Re: Lisitsa records Einaudi album
patH #3041024 10/30/20 10:48 AM
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Originally Posted by patH
My point still stands. There is no good or bad music. Or more accurately, there is no objectively good or bad music, since everybody can decide for themselves what makes music good.

This is a Classical music sub-forum. If you are unable to decide what is good or bad music, can you decide what is Classical music? Class can be a mathematical term, in that for music to be part of the "Classical Music" class, it has to present certain easy to describe characteristics. Or Class can be an esthetical ranking, i.e. within music we will identify various "classes" of music that appeal to different classes of people.

I believe, following Plato, than as far as Art is concerned, there is Art which is intrinsically good or bad, and that the difference is in the talent and education of the people that make the judgement. For Classical Music, it is the test of time.



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Re: Lisitsa records Einaudi album
Vikendios #3041037 10/30/20 11:25 AM
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Originally Posted by Vikendios
This is a Classical music sub-forum.

Actually, that is not specified anywhere. Although certainly, by default, this forum is primarily devoted to classical music, and I do not intend to imply that I think other genres of music are relevant to most discussions in this forum. Although as someone said above, Lisitsa is a classical musician, and her performance of Einaudi is highly relevant to this forum. ("relevance" not being synonymous with "welcomed" of course)


Quote
For Classical Music, it is the test of time.

What do you mean by this? Surely not that anything created more recently can not be "classical" until time has passed?


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Re: Lisitsa records Einaudi album
Chrispy #3041048 10/30/20 12:09 PM
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It's a lot more relevant than many things that get discussed here at length, such as Yuja Wang's wardrobe.

Re: Lisitsa records Einaudi album
ShiroKuro #3041081 10/30/20 01:47 PM
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Quote
For Classical Music, it is the test of time.

What do you mean by this? Surely not that anything created more recently can not be "classical" until time has passed?

Let's put it this way : I do not think that Mozart, Chopin or Debussy were ever conscious of writing music that would become "Classical". They wrote the kind of music they could, and wished, and they probably hoped that as many people as possible, and particularly people whose opinions and tastes they respected, would enjoy it.

Maybe their secret ambition and vanity was to join the masters of the past that they much admired. But it was left to posterity to decide.

Last edited by Vikendios; 10/30/20 01:49 PM.


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Re: Lisitsa records Einaudi album
Chrispy #3041085 10/30/20 01:51 PM
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That's really good johnstaf lol.

I think the topic is relevant because of the artist but also because the problem of categorizing this music hasn't been solved. I'm curious about this because I have no idea how to solve it. (I don't lose any sleep over this)

I recently learned the Glassworks opening by Philip Glass. That and a lot of his music (The Hours, Metamorphosis) seems to intersect with what I would call the George Winston school.

How would someone describe the difference when putting Philip Glass in the classical category? I would think it has a lot to do with his own philosophy or stated views and not necessarily intrinsic to the music. But I haven't researched any of that so it's just a guess. Maybe there's a lot of his music that I haven't studied that explains it.

Re: Lisitsa records Einaudi album
bennevis #3041614 11/01/20 02:51 AM
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Originally Posted by bennevis
Originally Posted by ShiroKuro
I have actually been thinking about that (whether she made the recordings solely for money or not) and given that the recordings are so far only available on Spotify (and not on iTunes, Amazon, or for sale on her site) I can only conclude that making money was not the goal (or at least not the main goal)

Another detail that was missed in this thread, that I only just learned recently, is that Lisitsa has recorded a 2-cd album of music by Philip Glass. So it might actually be possible that she (gasp) actually likes Einaudi's music.
You fail to grasp the point that Einaudi (and Nyman) is not Philip Glass. Not even close.
...
Is that supposed to put Einaudi (and Nyman) in a positive or negative light? And Philip Glass is no Brahms, not even close. How is "minimalism" artistically superior to "ambient music"? At any rate I find Einaudi (whom I'd never heard of before looking at this thread) easier to take (and less pretentious) anyway than Ferneyhough or Rebecca Saunders or several other of our "serious contemporary leading lights".

Re: Lisitsa records Einaudi album
rmns2bseen #3041619 11/01/20 03:33 AM
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Originally Posted by rmns2bseen
At any rate I find Einaudi (whom I'd never heard of before looking at this thread) easier to take (and less pretentious) anyway than Ferneyhough or Rebecca Saunders or several other of our "serious contemporary leading lights".

I just went to listen to Fury II .... less than 5 minutes was plenty enough. I dont think I will buy her CD assuming there is one ! It could probably work out quite well as a soundtrack for a horror movie.

Re: Lisitsa records Einaudi album
Sidokar #3041624 11/01/20 03:46 AM
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Originally Posted by Sidokar
Originally Posted by rmns2bseen
At any rate I find Einaudi (whom I'd never heard of before looking at this thread) easier to take (and less pretentious) anyway than Ferneyhough or Rebecca Saunders or several other of our "serious contemporary leading lights".

I just went to listen to Fury II .... less than 5 minutes was plenty enough. I dont think I will buy her CD assuming there is one ! It could probably work out quite well as a soundtrack for a horror movie.
If you have 18 minutes to kill -- assuming you make it past the first couple of minutes -- look up her "Crimson" on YT. I would say the best way to "listen" to it is to turn the sound off and read the score. It's another form of Augenmusik, I guess. The same goes for Ferneyhough, really (in my opinion).

Re: Lisitsa records Einaudi album
Chrispy #3048092 11/21/20 06:54 PM
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At traffic lights, I prefer to listen to ein

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or if the wind is sufficiently calm, I'll listen to some Philip

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Re: Lisitsa records Einaudi album
Chrispy #3048369 11/22/20 05:59 PM
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Good grief! To think that Einaudi could cause such a ruckus, given his music. As I've said elsewhere, I have no taste for most of the Minimalists. It's my personal preference. I find the music boring. For me it's boring. Just my experience of it. At the same time I rather like some of Arvo Pärt, and I love Debussy's "Pelléas et Mélasande," which many find static to the point of stultification. Yes, I could go into a long and detailed rationale for my tastes, but why? To congratulate myself on my "superior" taste? Please! I don't like peanut butter either, by the way. I must be some sort of elitist! grin crazy


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Re: Lisitsa records Einaudi album
doctor S #3048406 11/22/20 10:39 PM
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Originally Posted by doctor S
At traffic lights, I prefer to listen to ein

[Linked Image],

or if the wind is sufficiently calm, I'll listen to some Philip

[Linked Image]
lol

Re: Lisitsa records Einaudi album
Chrispy #3048445 11/23/20 03:00 AM
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I don't like Philip Glass. When I heard his etudes, two thoughts came to mind: first, it sounds like Einaudi, but in a somber, serious, pretentious way. And second: it sounds like myself when I am doodling around on the keyboard and it's not going anywhere. This is of course completely subjective.
Maybe a measure of quality in music is the number of times the person who likes the music can hear it before it gets boring.

Re: Lisitsa records Einaudi album
ErfurtBob #3048565 11/23/20 01:25 PM
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Originally Posted by AaronSF
I don't like peanut butter either, by the way. I must be some sort of elitist! grin crazy

grin (And yes, good grief indeed!)

Originally Posted by ErfurtBob
Maybe a measure of quality in music is the number of times the person who likes the music can hear it before it gets boring.

Actually, I think this makes a lot of sense (although again, "quality" is as subjective as anything else bring brought up in this discussion).

The other piece of this might be a measure of "quality" (or how well-suited a piece is to one's personal preference) as how many times you can play the music before it gets boring...


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Re: Lisitsa records Einaudi album
Chrispy #3048844 11/24/20 06:44 AM
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Hi. Some questions to mull over that are pertinent to these types of discussions…

What is the main purpose of music?

Is music mostly about adhering to rules of composition?

About striving to achieve mathematical eloquence or perfection or form?

Is music's main goal to be enjoyed on an academic level and/or visually?

What do you think?

What can be said of a piece of music loved by many that is created by a highly educated composer who is extremely knowledgeable and entirely capable of writing within accepted classical norms of composition who merely decided to flaunt the rules, versus,

a piece of music created by an untrained composer who lacks knowledge, skill, or ability to compose within accepted norms but yet, again, is loved by many?

Does adherence to rules make the resulting music of higher or lower quality or of more or less value?

It seems to me that music's main purpose is an attempt to communicate without words what to some great degree is incommunicable, ineffable - our thoughts, feelings, emotions. It's a form of "catharsis", a way of getting out and manifesting what's bubbling about inside one's psyche. A manifestation of a lifetime of experiences of one's soul.

How seriously, then, are we to take the prevailing notion that accepted rules of composition "are made to be broken" - and how far is "too far"?

No doubt there are many capable of composing within accepted norms. Not all of it is revered, however. There is some essence or spark that makes some pieces of music, or some composer's particular compositions, memorable, enjoyable. When that is the case, is that not worthy of being celebrated?

Jeanne W


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Re: Lisitsa records Einaudi album
Jeanne W #3048857 11/24/20 07:25 AM
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Why do we always discuss the music and the composer?

How about the listeners? My kid actively refuses to listen to anything other than Baby Shark and other simple kid songs. Does that make Baby Shark classical music? A masterpiece? Is my daughter having a catharsis? (She loves singing these songs and apparently enjoys music. She even cries on sad songs).

I won’t share my thoughts though because I risk being accused of snobbery and elitism 😀 But the issues of music quality are not limited to finding the explanation only in the music itself. The listeners are equally as important. Baby Shark is a quality masterpiece. For 3 year olds 😉

Last edited by CyberGene; 11/24/20 07:26 AM.

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Re: Lisitsa records Einaudi album
CyberGene #3048968 11/24/20 12:02 PM
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Originally Posted by CyberGene
Why do we always discuss the music and the composer?

How about the listeners? My kid actively refuses to listen to anything other than Baby Shark and other simple kid songs. Does that make Baby Shark classical music? A masterpiece? Is my daughter having a catharsis?
My mother thinks the music I play (no, I don't mean Xenakis, Boulez or Ligeti, not even Bartók or Prokofiev) has too many notes and no music. She keeps asking me why I can't play like Richard Clayderman (her piano hero, ever since she watched him on TV).

I told her I didn't have an ounce of his talent, er, I meant looks. cry .......because she didn't bequeath me the right genes.


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Re: Lisitsa records Einaudi album
bennevis #3049002 11/24/20 01:18 PM
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Originally Posted by bennevis
Originally Posted by CyberGene
Why do we always discuss the music and the composer?

How about the listeners? My kid actively refuses to listen to anything other than Baby Shark and other simple kid songs. Does that make Baby Shark classical music? A masterpiece? Is my daughter having a catharsis?
My mother thinks the music I play (no, I don't mean Xenakis, Boulez or Ligeti, not even Bartók or Prokofiev) has too many notes and no music. She keeps asking me why I can't play like Richard Clayderman (her piano hero, ever since she watched him on TV).

I told her I didn't have an ounce of his talent, er, I meant looks. cry .......because she didn't bequeath me the right genes.
Ah yes, Philippe Pagès.


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Re: Lisitsa records Einaudi album
CyberGene #3049019 11/24/20 02:07 PM
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Originally Posted by CyberGene
How about the listeners? My kid actively refuses to listen to anything other than Baby Shark and other simple kid songs. Does that make Baby Shark classical music? A masterpiece? Is my daughter having a catharsis? (She loves singing these songs and apparently enjoys music. She even cries on sad songs). 😉

My 3-year-old granddaughter loves Baby Shark, and "We Are the Dinosaurs (Stomp! Stomp!)". Her long-suffering mother has to ration kid-music streaming to preserve her sanity. The one-year-old has a diet of squeaks and noises from electronic toys: the sounds are more frenetic than minimalist.

Before The Plague when I baby-sat, the kids were hearing Bach, Chopin, Debussy and Satie piano music on Pandora, which apparently was not unappreciated (at least by their mother). When I was a little urchin on the playroom floor playing records, one I wore out was a Nutcracker Suite LP which likely inured me to Russian music. If later I were to succeed in shaping their ears toward music I like, will they grow up adrift in a becalmed sea, longing to hear voices more and more beyond the horizon?


"I will hear in Heaven." Beethoven
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