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Is modern piano more resitant to false beat?
#3048095 11/21/20 07:16 PM
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I found many old piano has false beats eventhough they were very good pianos. If I just assuming that I buy two brand new Yamaha G2 and Yamaha C1X. Does C1X more resistant or have less false beat?

As for my imagination, piano design develops every year, designer will research how they can reduce the possibility of false beat.

Re: Is modern piano more resitant to false beat?
tony3304 #3048100 11/21/20 07:32 PM
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The problem for piano designers is there is no robust mechanistic model in common use that can predict how false beats happen.

I have been developing one that incorporates effects from longitudinal mode energy on the transverse modes, but I think I am the only one doing this so far.

Some things are known in the industry:

String path needs to be straight from tuning pin the speaking length over the string rests and plate termination.

Loose bridge pins.

Twists in the wire during stringing against the natural curvature of the wire formed during the drawing process.

Low percent of the break point speaking lengths.


In a seemingly infinite universe-infinite human creativity is-seemingly possible.
According to NASA, 93% of the earth like planets possible in the known universe have yet to be formed.
Contact: Ed@LightHammerpiano.com
Re: Is modern piano more resitant to false beat?
tony3304 #3048111 11/21/20 09:02 PM
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tony330, it appears that you are having a difficult time escaping the agony of false beats.

If you ever did find a piano that was somewhat acceptable to you, I would imagine Ed McMorrow could remedy any false beats as well as anyone. He definitely has the knowledge and experience.

In my view, it seems to me, that if you really want a piano with no false beats, you are going to have to find a very expensive, high end brand, that has had the utmost of professional prep.

Or, find a high-end digital piano that is considered the top of the line quality. Keep in mind that any digital piano would have been designed and programed with acoustic piano samples. If the acoustic used to sample the programing of the digital, any false beats would likely be transferred to the digital piano.

I'm not saying what you are looking for (a piano with no false beats) doesn't exist, but it will likely be very expensive, and hard to find. If it happens to be an acoustic piano, the absence or lack of false beats probably wouldn't last a long time, and would need regular, high-end maintenance from the most experienced of concert piano technicians. The digital piano may retain it's samples longer with lots of use, and need less ongoing service.

Of course, I'm just speculating...

Good luck, my friend!

Rick


Piano enthusiast and amateur musician: "Treat others the way you would like to be treated". Yamaha C7. YouTube Channel
Re: Is modern piano more resitant to false beat?
tony3304 #3048113 11/21/20 09:09 PM
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Sometimes one can find a piano of rather modest lineage that is nearly false beat free.

Some makes that lay claim to elite status can carry quite a load of falseness.

The subject itself has no absolute definition of what is a state of falseness in a piano string.


In a seemingly infinite universe-infinite human creativity is-seemingly possible.
According to NASA, 93% of the earth like planets possible in the known universe have yet to be formed.
Contact: Ed@LightHammerpiano.com
Re: Is modern piano more resitant to false beat?
Ed McMorrow, RPT #3048129 11/21/20 10:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Ed McMorrow, RPT
Sometimes one can find a piano of rather modest lineage that is nearly false beat free.

Some makes that lay claim to elite status can carry quite a load of falseness.

The subject itself has no absolute definition of what is a state of falseness in a piano string.

Good info, Ed, as always.

I remember something that Peter Grey, (Piano Dr.) said in one of tony3304's threads recently, and that is, even if a piano has some false beats, as most do, of varying degrees, the false beat(s) usually blends in with the music being played and may not be noticeable at all. Or, at least it would not be as noticeable as playing a single note by itself with a distinctive false beat.

Rick


Piano enthusiast and amateur musician: "Treat others the way you would like to be treated". Yamaha C7. YouTube Channel
Re: Is modern piano more resitant to false beat?
Rickster #3048139 11/22/20 12:30 AM
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Hi Rick, false beat notes are not very noticeable when it played with other notes but when I played slow tempo music piece like Clair De Lune, when I pressed single note , especially in climax, false beats from two strings of one note made pure unison sound very short and it was very funny. I called Japanese technician about one month ago, he thought it was tuning problem but after he tuned it, the sustained sound of pure unison was still very short. He was the technician who worked for Yamaha and Kawai in Hamamatsu more than 30 years.

Last edited by tony3304; 11/22/20 12:31 AM.
Re: Is modern piano more resitant to false beat?
tony3304 #3048158 11/22/20 04:15 AM
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My Kawai RX-2 has some false beats in the treble area.

Tightening the plate bolts somewhat helped but not cured the problem altogether.

Some notes got better by slightly seating the string on the bridge or tapping bridge pins, but still had a very slight false beat.

IMO, it is very hard to find an acoustic piano with no false beats. My old Roland digital has false beats too from the sampled Steinway D piano.

Have you tried the expensive German grands ? They might have the pure tone you seem to be interested.

Re: Is modern piano more resitant to false beat?
Ed McMorrow, RPT #3048184 11/22/20 06:41 AM
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Originally Posted by Ed McMorrow, RPT
I have been developing one that incorporates effects from longitudinal mode energy on the transverse modes, but I think I am the only one doing this so far.

Ed, if I understand you correctly, this is a very interesting idea. I can imagine that the energy in a string might transfer from the transverse modes to the longitudinal mode, and then back again, in a repeating cycle. Something like the classic two-pendulum experiment shown here. Presumably the idea is that this back-and-forth energy transfer manifests itself as false beats.

Re: Is modern piano more resitant to false beat?
Hakki #3048196 11/22/20 07:52 AM
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I tuned my friend's Youngchang upright piano(Korea made) in 1990s, it had no false beat and touch was just amazing. I can definately tell it was better than Yamaha upright made in same period.

Sometimes I found false beat free pianos but most of them were small upright piano.

In my personal experience, Japan made(Yamaha , Kawai) pianos had more false beats.

I don't have many experience to try old used premium German grands , only tried brand new grands. Absolutely they didn't have false beats.

Re: Is modern piano more resitant to false beat?
tony3304 #3048206 11/22/20 08:39 AM
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Perhaps the C Bechstein A124 might be the answer to what you need .You seemed to enjoy that instruments. Perhaps go and try the piano out a few more times to see if you experience this with that piano.

Re: Is modern piano more resitant to false beat?
Lady Bird #3048209 11/22/20 09:06 AM
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I am waiting new Feurich 179 is arriving to NZ also waiting Kawai GX2 price is dropping. As there are not many rich people who likes music live in my town, there is high possibility for GX2 price drops. Musicshop owner said he is planning to discount A124 again if it is not sold until Christmas so A124 price can go down further.

Having nice grand piano in my living room was my life dream, it's hard to decide to go with A124.

Re: Is modern piano more resitant to false beat?
tony3304 #3048212 11/22/20 09:16 AM
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A problem that often manifests itself is that once one's ear becomes fixated on a particular sound or type of sound, it becomes increasingly difficult to NOT hear it, even though faint, no matter what.

I do not know if I can ever recall any piano that did not show some "falseness" somewhere. I certainly have found some that were remarkably free of falseness (though not 100% IMO). Of course when you get one that is really clean (so to speak) then you start SEARCHING for the tiniest of false beats. An endless struggle sometimes.

Personally I do not like OBVIOUS false beat(s), but I can tolerate minor ones as long as they are not endemic in the piano. I once cared for a SS L that had really bad FB as well as significant pitch fluctuation on strike. Drove me nuts to tune, did not enjoy playing it afterward (owner didn't particularly like it either), and though eventually restrung it was better but still had the problem, and grew worse again as the strings aged. The owner eventually traded it for a nice B.

Peter Grey Piano Doctor


Peter W. Grey, RPT
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www.seacoastpianodoctor.com
pianodoctor57@gmail.com
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PK0T7_I_nV8
Re: Is modern piano more resitant to false beat?
tony3304 #3048214 11/22/20 09:28 AM
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Originally Posted by tony3304
I am waiting new Feurich 179 is arriving to NZ also waiting Kawai GX2 price is dropping. As there are not many rich people who likes music live in my town, there is high possibility for GX2 price drops. Musicshop owner said he is planning to discount A124 again if it is not sold until Christmas so A124 price can go down further.

Having nice grand piano in my living room was my life dream, it's hard to decide to go with A124.

There are those of us here who would be happy with either an excellent upright or a grand. You don’t sound like you would be—- and you would always wish for the grand you don’t have. REALLY Think about whether you will be happy with the A124, regardless of the piano’s quality. If not, don’t buy a piano you will regret.

Re: Is modern piano more resitant to false beat?
tony3304 #3048218 11/22/20 09:46 AM
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Originally Posted by tony3304
I am waiting new Feurich 179 is arriving to NZ also waiting Kawai GX2 price is dropping. As there are not many rich people who likes music live in my town, there is high possibility for GX2 price drops. Musicshop owner said he is planning to discount A124 again if it is not sold until Christmas so A124 price can go down further.

Having nice grand piano in my living room was my life dream, it's hard to decide to go with A124.
Then forget about an upright altogether. That will solve one problem at least.

Re: Is modern piano more resitant to false beat?
tony3304 #3048246 11/22/20 11:31 AM
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Most multi wound string unisons have some level of mismatch between strings that the coupling "power" will reduce any beating effects when they are tuned together well.

The same coupling pull will bring some slow and or "weak" false beating strings into unison when tuned well.

As you rise in the compass, unison coupling power drops significantly and any single string beats still remain "busy".

Many false beating strings can be reduced and or eliminated if a piano is rebuilt with impeccable bridge and stringing work. Also, if the other string termination points, (V-bar and agraffes) are shaped to maximize pivot termination function, falseness is reduced.

Still I have found that some inherent false beats will remain on certain notes. This is why I believe the response of the bridge/soundboard to longitudinal mode energy is a contributing factor to falseness in piano strings.

I have proven this by modifying the bridge and duplex scales in pianos with a high rate of treble falseness to reduce the ability of the longitudinal mode to couple with the transverse mode.

This is explained further in my US Pat. #9,117,421; Fully Tempered Duplex Scale.


In a seemingly infinite universe-infinite human creativity is-seemingly possible.
According to NASA, 93% of the earth like planets possible in the known universe have yet to be formed.
Contact: Ed@LightHammerpiano.com

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