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Re: why does the D Major scale seem harder?
treefrog #3045990 11/14/20 07:03 PM
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Originally Posted by treefrog
[...]
I am proficient in 48 scales. I am not proficient in Hanon exercises.

I’m totally confused now. I thought we were talking about scales but now it seems to have moved into the realms of Hanon exercises of which, other than I and VI I have very little knowledge.

[...]

The point being made is that Hanon, as well as a series of exercises, includes all the major and minor scales with traditional fingering. So, it was not a question of your having to "be proficient in Hanon exercises" but a question of recognizing the traditional scale of D major as it appears in Hanon, the image of which was posted earlier in this thread. Surely you recognized the scale.

Here is the image again:

[Linked Image]

Regards,


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Re: why does the D Major scale seem harder?
BruceD #3045994 11/14/20 07:18 PM
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Originally Posted by BruceD
Originally Posted by treefrog
[...]
I am proficient in 48 scales. I am not proficient in Hanon exercises.

I’m totally confused now. I thought we were talking about scales but now it seems to have moved into the realms of Hanon exercises of which, other than I and VI I have very little knowledge.

[...]

The point being made is that Hanon, as well as a series of exercises, includes all the major and minor scales with traditional fingering. So, it was not a question of your having to "be proficient in Hanon exercises" but a question of recognizing the traditional scale of D major as it appears in Hanon, the image of which was posted earlier in this thread. Surely you recognized the scale.

Here is the image again:

[Linked Image]

Regards,

It still looks a bit too complicated for me. I’m a beginner.

It’s not often that I have the opportunity to help out on this forum but when I saw the title of this thread, I thought, I know the D Major scale. Maybe I can help.

I made a mistake and clearly this is above my level.

Re: why does the D Major scale seem harder?
treefrog #3046011 11/14/20 09:36 PM
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Originally Posted by treefrog
I made a mistake and clearly this is above my level.

Nope, you should be good to go with it. I just took a look at my PM 4D, and it is the same notes and the same fingering.
Hanon just starts our one octave lower and finishes one octave higher, so you play 4 octaves instead of two. But they are both quite literally the same.

Try it, I think you will surprise yourself!


Casio PX-S3000
Nope, no issues with it at all.
Took lessons from 1960 to 1969, stopped at age 16.
Started again in July 2020 at age 67. Lots more fun now!
Re: why does the D Major scale seem harder?
trooplewis #3046014 11/14/20 09:58 PM
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Originally Posted by trooplewis
Originally Posted by treefrog
I made a mistake and clearly this is above my level.

Nope, you should be good to go with it. I just took a look at my PM 4D, and it is the same notes and the same fingering.
Hanon just starts our one octave lower and finishes one octave higher, so you play 4 octaves instead of two. But they are both quite literally the same.

Try it, I think you will surprise yourself!

This thread has become truly surreal. I don’t need to try anything. I'm not the one with the problem. I’m quite happy with my progress and the the direction that I’m going in.

You’re the one that said that you had a problem and as far as I can see, after three pages, nobody knows what the heck it is.

I’m sorry but I need to get out of this thread. It’s like the Twilight Zone.

Re: why does the D Major scale seem harder?
trooplewis #3046026 11/14/20 11:22 PM
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Originally Posted by trooplewis
Ok, getting a C Major down with both hands was really difficult.
After that, most other scales took a lot less work than C Major.

But D Major? The fingering just seems out of whack with all the other scales.
Each hand separately is do-able, but putting both hands together on it makes my brainwaves send stupid signals to my fingers.

Any hints?

@trooplewis:
As others have already mentioned, the traditional fingering for D major is the same as the one for C major, so you know the fingering already. I do agree that D major is harder than C major. Just do it slowly until it gets easier (again repeating what others have said). One thing you may want to try: my teacher likes to shift his hands a bit more inward to play D major (it didn't really help me, but everyone is different).


Talão

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Re: why does the D Major scale seem harder?
trooplewis #3046031 11/14/20 11:45 PM
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Originally Posted by trooplewis
My problem seems to be that in the left hand descending, I want to use my thumb after the sharps are hit, but the fingering calls for 3rd or 4th finger to be used.
I can can jammed up here as well. I am not a teacher but think your teacher can sort this in a jiffy.

These reminders helped me on this particular problem. But be warned, they aren't likely to be useful in isolation (e.g. my scales sound terrible if all my technique bits aren't in synch). And your issues may be different.

- Hitting the keys straight down to the ground, not at an angle, not over-rotating. I think of a string that connects a lead weight from the middle of the key straight down to the ground.

- There is some in-out motion of the hand-arm, as the sharps are in towards the fall board.

- Maybe the forearm should run (somewhat) parallel with the keys; too big an angle and I trip up on some keys.

- To retrain from mistakes, play very slowly with no mistakes.

Re: why does the D Major scale seem harder?
treefrog #3046068 11/15/20 06:17 AM
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Originally Posted by treefrog
It still looks a bit too complicated for me. I’m a beginner.

It’s not often that I have the opportunity to help out on this forum but when I saw the title of this thread, I thought, I know the D Major scale. Maybe I can help.

I made a mistake and clearly this is above my level.

There is no harm done. It is just a forum where people can share experience and learn something. So the positive here is that you also learn something about Hanon. Dont feel bad about it, there is really no reason. Take care.

Re: why does the D Major scale seem harder?
treefrog #3046211 11/15/20 12:45 PM
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Originally Posted by treefrog
I can’t make head or tail of that.

It's just scary looking because it's written in 16ths with the bars connecting the 2 groups and the note stems are all over the place. The Alfred edition is easier to read.


Learner
Re: why does the D Major scale seem harder?
trooplewis #3046226 11/15/20 01:39 PM
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Thank you everyone for all the help. It was not my intention to offend anyone, I'm sorry if I did.


Casio PX-S3000
Nope, no issues with it at all.
Took lessons from 1960 to 1969, stopped at age 16.
Started again in July 2020 at age 67. Lots more fun now!
Re: why does the D Major scale seem harder?
trooplewis #3046409 11/16/20 01:46 AM
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I find no key either physically hard or easy, just with minor differences in position, which ceased to matter for me over sixty years ago. However, the question which intrigues me is why D major is singled out for difficulty by so many people. I have heard about it most of my life, long before this thread or any forum. There has to be a reason but its nature has always eluded me and continues to do so. To add to the puzzle, Bb major is the precise physical mirror image of D major but I have never heard people complain about that key or scale. In view of the sheer number of times I have heard about this matter from players I feel the original poster has asked something, possibly unintentionally, of quite deep significance but I am utterly perplexed as to its origin.


"We shall always love the music of the masters, but they are all dead and now it's our turn." - Llewelyn Jones, my piano teacher
Re: why does the D Major scale seem harder?
Ted #3046687 11/16/20 04:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Ted
I find no key either physically hard or easy, just with minor differences in position, which ceased to matter for me over sixty years ago. However, the question which intrigues me is why D major is singled out for difficulty by so many people. I have heard about it most of my life, long before this thread or any forum. There has to be a reason but its nature has always eluded me and continues to do so. To add to the puzzle, Bb major is the precise physical mirror image of D major but I have never heard people complain about that key or scale. In view of the sheer number of times I have heard about this matter from players I feel the original poster has asked something, possibly unintentionally, of quite deep significance but I am utterly perplexed as to its origin.

Not sure how deep my thoughts were, but there is definitely something about the left-hand descent in D Major that breaks with the feel of C Major, even though the fingering is the same.
On many (most?) of the previous scales I have worked on, when descending and coming off of a black key, the thumb is the next finger that is used. Coming down the left-hand scale, when coming off of F#, my thumb wants to tuck under and hit the E, rather than wait for the next D. Again, both hands separately is easy. Putting them together and using correct fingering is difficult, at least for me.


Casio PX-S3000
Nope, no issues with it at all.
Took lessons from 1960 to 1969, stopped at age 16.
Started again in July 2020 at age 67. Lots more fun now!
Re: why does the D Major scale seem harder?
trooplewis #3046695 11/16/20 05:21 PM
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You could try keeping the fourth finger on a black as with a Bb scale and see how that goes for you. I recall Bernhard on the other forum suggesting that years ago on another occasion someone complained about D major.


"We shall always love the music of the masters, but they are all dead and now it's our turn." - Llewelyn Jones, my piano teacher
Re: why does the D Major scale seem harder?
trooplewis #3046706 11/16/20 05:48 PM
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I used to have hand coordination issues too a very long time ago. With me the answer lay in ceasing to be consciously aware of every single note step and thinking in terms of groups. I also played scale figures in two or more keys at once, I think that helped. Then again, my conventional scale playing is probably nothing to write home to Mum about anyway.


"We shall always love the music of the masters, but they are all dead and now it's our turn." - Llewelyn Jones, my piano teacher
Re: why does the D Major scale seem harder?
trooplewis #3046709 11/16/20 06:03 PM
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I actually just started working on D Major again this weekend. I like 4th finger on F# and 3rd on C# for my left hand. I'm finding the descent smoother and it requires less conscious thought/effort (for me) than the standard fingering.


I ❤️ Mendelssohn, Yann Tiersen, Heller
Re: why does the D Major scale seem harder?
JB_PW #3046722 11/16/20 07:02 PM
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Originally Posted by JB_PW
I actually just started working on D Major again this weekend. I like 4th finger on F# and 3rd on C# for my left hand. I'm finding the descent smoother and it requires less conscious thought/effort (for me) than the standard fingering.
Does that mean you start D with 2, E is played with the thumb, and then scoot in for F# on 4?

Re: why does the D Major scale seem harder?
trooplewis #3046732 11/16/20 07:55 PM
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Yes. That "scoot" isn't ideal, but it's not too bad in front of my body (i.e. the lowest of 4 octaves is the most awkward). I'm trying not to bend my thumb too much and just shift my hand quickly. For me, the easier descent makes up for it. Might not be the same for others of course. I'm intermediate so I'm not going terribly fast yet. Not sure how it will feel in 87 years when I finally approach 120 BPM. smile


I ❤️ Mendelssohn, Yann Tiersen, Heller
Re: why does the D Major scale seem harder?
trooplewis #3046779 11/17/20 12:57 AM
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I wonder if anyone has used my suggestion in a post http://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthre...major-scale-seem-harder.html#Post3045539

Re: why does the D Major scale seem harder?
trooplewis #3046795 11/17/20 03:36 AM
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Originally Posted by Nahum
I wonder if anyone has used my suggestion..
I suggested it, you suggested, JB_PW is suggesting it...

No-one seems to be listening.

Yes, the B Minor fingering is used for D Major, LH 4th on F#. This is natural fingering; Chopin's idea of matching the symmetry of the hands and keyboard.

The OP himself states that his "problem" is wanting to play the LH thumb after the black keys. It's not a problem, it's the natural result of being familiar with the keyboard!

The reason C Major fingering is used in the sharp keys is to make it easier to learn the scales, not easier to play them. In G Major, D Major and A Major the LH 4th goes on F#. In F Major LH 4th goes on Bb. Natural fingering is easier once you know the notes. Finding the starting finger isn't really an issue.


Richard
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