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Originally Posted by danlightbulb
I apologise for derailing the thread a bit. I just find it frustrating that the barriers to entry are so high these days, and its exasperated by these really premium brands. The purpose of these very premium brands does not seem to be just about the piano itself, you never see these brands on stage for example. I think these pianos are better compared to a piece of high end furniture than a musical instrument, because the only musicians that can afford them will be very wealthy ones. Its a display piece for the discerning buyer as Joseph Fleetwood said.

I think you have mischaracterized what Mr. Fleetwood said as a whole. It seems like you just have a lot of anger about something you have not yet tried, and an industry you simply don't know much about. The "price of entry" for pianos has continued to go down, with inexpensive digital pianos simply taking the place of the entry level spinets of before. The premium pianos are useful to those who:

1. want to buy on the "prestige/exclusivity factor"
2. intermediate level players who appreciate the differences in touch/tone/appearance vs. cheaper pianos
3. advanced/professional level players who use the full capabilities of the piano as a tool to express themselves artistically

For some reason, you seem to lump everyone that has one of these pianos in category #1. And unlike other objects referred to in this thread, a high-end piano takes several months to a year to produce just one finished example. Even the Japanese makers you cite all produce a high-end line (that is made much more slowly with a lot more hand labor and more expensive materials), which are priced just as high as many European-made equivalents.

Quote
Then I worry, having now been learning to play myself as a middle aged adult, that when kids want to learn to play the opportunity won't be there for most of them like it wasn't for me as a child. If a normal working class parent goes online to look at piano costs they are going to be put off and feel like they can't give that opportunity to their child. Its a real shame. And what happens then is you look at cheap pianos on ebay or whatever, and they are brands you've never heard of and can't find any information on, or they are only small ones (<110cm) when all the advice online says bigger is better etc etc. So you end up between a rock and a hard place.

Life is a series of choices. Some of the forum posters you have attacked, value having a fine piano more than a $1,200 phone or a $50,000 SUV, or needing to buy insanely marked up alcohol when we go to a restaurant. Some of us own a fine piano on a middle class income, and we just make financial choices to make it work. At all points in my adult life as a working pianist and music teacher, my pianos have been worth more than my vehicles by 100% or more.

I don't think spending $5,000 on a piano for a beginner or intermediate player is a bad investment, considering it will last for decades with decent care and maintenance. It costs far more annually to give a child lessons.

p.s. information about just about most brands of pianos you've never heard of can be found at pianobuyer.com and I don't advise buying a piano via (or using as a robust pricing reference) eBay.


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Originally Posted by terminaldegree
It seems like you just have a lot of anger about something you have not yet tried, and an industry you simply don't know much about.

You're right. There's just so limited opportunity to play acoustics for me, I don't know how you all play so many?

Ive spent a few hours researching pianos this afternoon and came across this video which shows alot of pianos all together being played, with some commentary by the owner of the shop. Its helped me to see some of what you guys have been talking about.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BGQRzJihHpU

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I agree with you about your statement that life is a series of choices. I drive only a run of the mill Japanese car, do not own a boat or a mansion, never ordered a Dom Perignon at a restaurant, enjoy a Burger King one in a while. But I appreciate my Sauter Omega 220 which I do not consider to be a piece of fancy furniture.


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Yeah I was naïve in my original assertions. Sorry about that.

Just been watching a very good video of a Feurich 133 compared to an older Steinway. He really rates it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WZLZgoRouoQ

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Originally Posted by danlightbulb
You're right. There's just so limited opportunity to play acoustics for me, I don't know how you all play so many?


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Thanks I didn't know Rachmaninoff had a Rönisch in Dresden. I knew about the Blüthner and the Bechstein though, and of course the Steinways in America and Switzerland. That means when he composed the first sonata he also had the Rönisch. I would be very interested to record some Rachmaninoff on period instruments because these older European instruments are quite different to the pianos of today.

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Joe mentioned the Cavendish pianos earlier on in this thread.


http://www.montaguepianos.co.uk/cavendish-pianos/

Last edited by Lady Bird; 11/12/20 07:12 PM. Reason: spelling
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Originally Posted by danlightbulb
Ive spent a few hours researching pianos this afternoon and came across this video which shows alot of pianos all together being played, with some commentary by the owner of the shop. Its helped me to see some of what you guys have been talking about.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BGQRzJihHpU

Here is another store that has lots of short videos (playing only) on many pianos:

https://www.youtube.com/user/Bolpianos/videos

About 7 months ago they apparently had the same lady play the same short pieces on very many different grand pianos and uprights. New ones and used ones. Nice opportunity to compare. There are top pianos like Bösendorfer, Bechstein, Steingraeber, but also inexpensive ones like Perzina. Interesting used ones Sauter, Schimmel, Seiler, Ibach etc. There are also older videos with a pianist playing other pianos, many Bechstein and Hoffmann pianos for example (but different music pieces). The recording are reasonably good.

After watching many of these videos, I think my overall conclusion is that a good pianist can already play beautifully on an entry level piano that is new smile.


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Originally Posted by pianogabe
After watching many of these videos, I think my overall conclusion is that a good pianist can already play beautifully on an entry level piano that is new smile.

I think there is a lot of truth in this, pianogabe! A well trained pianist who can adapt to and control tone, expression, articulation etc. on the very finest piano can do the same on an entry level piano.


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To want to play or practice a piano everyday one needs a piano one loves .(tone and pesponse ) Besides we can tell almost nothing about these videos .
The lady's job is to adapt to the pianos and to record them so they can be sold. She plays the same bland piece on all pianos .

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The Sauter is very small and you can see by the tiny music stand it is really quite old .So yes they last many years.

Last edited by Lady Bird; 11/14/20 01:52 PM. Reason: spelling
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Has anyone shared this video yet?

https://youtu.be/31tUOSku-gg


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Originally Posted by Carey
Has anyone shared this video yet?

https://youtu.be/31tUOSku-gg
I thought I posted it earlier. However good to see again !

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Originally Posted by Lady Bird
Originally Posted by Carey
Has anyone shared this video yet?

https://youtu.be/31tUOSku-gg
I thought I posted it earlier. However good to see again !
Sorry, apparently I missed it. smile


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Originally Posted by Lady Bird
"When did you start working for Sauter? "
Joe is that a trick question ???

I once remember a post you wrote (you were speaking to me and you said Schimmel pianos were such incredible pianos, you thought I was an unusual person .) We were talking of pianos and perhaps I mentioned Sauter, I cannot remember the details .
Perhaps moving to South Africa when I was a kid and living there.(perhaps you imagine every "European" person in South Africa must be unusual or perhaps not nice people ?)
I have no idea why you thought that I was unusual ?
No I am not working for SAUTER. Are you working for BLUTHNER ?

Getting back to this Feurich 123, I was answering Vuong's post when I said that piano was not a European piano but made by Hailun .( he spoke about this Feurich123 in the same sentence as Seiler ) All I was trying to do was to say there are still are real German made Seiler's out there .In fact their concert grands and uprights sound phenomenal. (If some of those youtube videos are anything to go by.)
Another reason why I thought Schimmel pianos were more highly rated in the UK was because of a piano rating map I saw that originated in the UK.
There seems to be quite a number of piano dealers in the UK that sell Schimmel and I have often heard of people owning them
So yes it is nice to know Sauter is still well liked , in the "good ole country"
I have not meant ever to be offensive to you in anyway.
Joe
I am sorry for being rude to you .I admire your posts and your knowledge which is massive compared to mine .Of course just about everyone here would love to play like you. I agree it is possible that Feurich 123 is partly made in Vienna.
The above videos show what a lovely piano it is.
By the way I know you do not work for Bluthner !

Last edited by Lady Bird; 11/24/20 02:52 AM. Reason: spelling
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