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Originally Posted by oswaldpeters
Bechstein D282: this time it's G6 that is giving me issues, but the bloom on most of the treble register makes it sound really horrible in general. I still have v6.x.x installed, and this plays just how I like - so it's not my ears!

I'm not a sound engineer, I don't understand how to tweak Pianoteq sufficiently to get rid of the characteristics I'm coming up against - I'm a pianist and I just want it to sound like it did before...

If you have a digital with volume regulation on all 88 keys, you may be able to nullify that effect a little. Not an ideal solution is it?


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Grabbed v7. I like the changes to "my" D, even if they are not earth shattering.

For 29€ it was basically a no-brainer, since I use the software every other day.


The backbone of modern industrial society is, and for the foreseeable future will be, the use of electrical Power.
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Here's a video of Phil Best playing the New York Steinway D:
https://youtu.be/EdRTEupMKwA


"Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler." - Albert Einstein
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Funny how so many ‘round here hate Pianoteq, yet here they are constantly talking ‘bout Pianoteq!

I ask the “haters”, is this just the macho-man thing to say, “I hate Pianoteq”, but then quietly, when no one’s watching, Pianoteq is blasting through your speakers and you’re dancing like Donna Summer to “She Works Hard For The Money”?

https://youtu.be/tuUEpbGVV2Y


I’ve been conducting a little experiment where I ask male participants if they like Donna Summer, and before I even finish the question they’re acting all offended that I would even ponder the possibility of Donna, yet when I subliminally start humming “Hot Stuff” they unconsciously start tapping their feet!

So I say, if you work hard for the money, why spend it on samplers simply to show the world you’re a macho-man?

Come out of the closet, now, and show your true love for Pianoteq!

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Originally Posted by Pete14
Funny how so many ‘round here hate Pianoteq, yet here they are constantly talking ‘bout Pianoteq!

I ask the “haters”, is this just the macho-man thing to say, “I hate Pianoteq”, but then quietly, when no one’s watching, Pianoteq is blasting through your speakers and you’re dancing like Donna Summer to “She Works Hard For The Money”?

https://youtu.be/tuUEpbGVV2Y

I don't hate it, but everytime I try to like it it just reminds me of this cool song and I end up looking it up on YouTube to swing my hips to.

https://youtu.be/vJMLJVha5sw

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Give in to your instincts, Pianoteq awaits with open and forgiving arms!

We love all, even the haters, here @Pianoteq, so go on, hot stuff, ditch that there sampler!


https://youtu.be/nYMeJSehCe4

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Dancing like Donna Summer ? You mean https://youtu.be/gV76MzR-p_E

I would say I like Pianoteq, I think they do something impressive since to piano sound complexity is huge. But I have tried it once more for 1 hour today. In the first time I won’t say it is too synthetic, but in the long term, I would say there is something missing without knowing which word to put on. I think I will go back to my samples.

A typical sampled piano is between 100€ to 150€ (Ivory, Embertone Walker Lite & Full, Bechstein DG Essentials, Galaxy Lite, Native Instruments, Galaxy, Truekeys), and sometimes more than 200€ (Galaxy Full, Bechstein DG, VSL). Not a big deal compared to a digital piano or a good controller. (But if we want to have a big choice, the 50€ Pianoteq instruments are cheap).

The main issue about samples is the required SSD and memory. My 8GB are limited and I must be careful not to have other greedy programs launched (Firefox...)

Last edited by Frédéric L; 11/11/20 06:25 PM.

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Originally Posted by Pete14
Give in to your instincts, Pianoteq awaits with open and forgiving arms!

We love all, even the haters, here @Pianoteq, so go on, hot stuff, ditch that there sampler!


https://youtu.be/nYMeJSehCe4

what about forgiving fingers and we must not forget about the thumbs


All these years playing and I still consider myself a novice.
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You look to the left, like Carlton, you look to the right, and it seems like there’s no one in site; you let loose and dance like it’s your last dance, but then you quickly realize there’s someone staring down your back!

https://youtu.be/Lxqa2Haf8lo

Is this how you haters want to live? Always going out of your way to hide your true feelings for Pianoteq, and sneaking around the house for one more secret dance?
Well, that is no way to live your life; so once again, come out and dance with us like the whole world is watching and you just don’t give a damn!

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They are already on 7.0.2 version... But something is wrong with U4 model. Sustain pedal noise is missing. Not that I really miss it, I tend to remove or lower quite a bit, but now it is just gone grin


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Originally Posted by EPW
Originally Posted by Pete14
Give in to your instincts, Pianoteq awaits with open and forgiving arms!

We love all, even the haters, here @Pianoteq, so go on, hot stuff, ditch that there sampler!


https://youtu.be/nYMeJSehCe4

what about forgiving fingers and we must not forget about the thumbs

Interesting is the fact that wi my dodgy fingers playing me up today; (I blame the Government entirely) I find Pianoteq far easier to play than the Yamaha native voices.
I am thus stuck with Pianoteq! I suspect it feels like a real piano upright to play, particularlky with the default vel curve . ..


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Originally Posted by Pete14
Definitely not my kind of music but it sounds pretty old. laugh


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So I tried it out in more detail yesterday. When you play them side by side there is a very noticable difference vorm 6 > 7. All the pianos seem to have more "oompfh" in the low end now, especially the Bechstein. If you compare them side by side, v6 sounds a lot "flatter" and v7 as a richer more vibrant tone. This is also true for the U4 that has been significantly improved in my opinion.

What I noticed though is that my default velocity courve doesn't work anymore for every piano. While it sounds good on the Bechstein, it sounds strange on the Model B for example, so there have defenitly been some changes under the hood. I'll have to experiment with that a little more. A bunch of user FXP that I have, like the "Nord white Grand" sound absolutly fantastic now though, will have to change what they tweaked there.

The metallic overtones that PT tends to have in the treble notes are still there though, but you can reduce those greatly by tweaking the velocity curve. So if you biggest gripe was that PT doesn't have enough power in the low end, you will probably be happy now. If you can't stand the metallic overtones, you are still going to hate it.

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Originally Posted by FloRi89
What I noticed though is that my default velocity courve doesn't work anymore for every piano. While it sounds good on the Bechstein, it sounds strange on the Model B for example, so there have defenitly been some changes under the hood. I'll have to experiment with that a little more. A bunch of user FXP that I have, like the "Nord white Grand" sound absolutly fantastic now though, will have to change what they tweaked there.

I can confirm this. It seems that the default velocity curve sometimes works better.

So , for me, the Global velocity curve makes no sense.

Last edited by klausi6; 11/12/20 04:20 AM.

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Originally Posted by FloRi89
What I noticed though is that my default velocity courve doesn't work anymore for every piano.

I have made the same discovery. My normal velocity curves "bend upwards", but apparently I now have to flatten them somewhat, bringing them a bit closer to the straight line.


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Originally Posted by QuasiUnaFantasia
Originally Posted by FloRi89
What I noticed though is that my default velocity courve doesn't work anymore for every piano.

I have made the same discovery. My normal velocity curves "bend upwards", but apparently I now have to flatten them somewhat, bringing them a bit closer to the straight line.

Mine is usually more of a "hard" curve (bending downwards), but that doesn't work at all anymore on the Model B for example. I wonder what they changed there, but for me the same, the global curve doesn't work for me.

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I am curious about how you find those differences between 6 and 7. I installed yesterday another first, Cubase Pro 11. Well, what best to check it than the brand new PTQ 7!. So I inserted an instrument track for each and put an insert, on the output, of the very advanced new metering system than Cubase 11 incorporates. I also put on my headphones. I used the VPC1 for the tests.

So, selecting on PTQ 6 and 7 the exact same preset, for several different pianos, I was able to instantly switch and see (spectrum and level wise) the differences (comparing notes, triads, with and without pedal)... which were completely absent!. So, please, could someone explain the exact setup used to find those big differences?. I am truly puzzled.

To be honest I found one difference: the U4 pedal noise was missing on PTQ7. I guess that is a minor bug, as it was OK for the rest of pianos.


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Originally Posted by Granyala
Originally Posted by Pete14
Definitely not my kind of music but it sounds pretty old. laugh

It is old, but not on the grand scale of things---people here love Chopin 😂

Besides, if you are going to play Donna Summer songs on Pianoteq, it would need to be one with a piano track, such as this 17 minute monstrosity by Jimmy Web



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.....and the denial continues........

It’s okay, you guys; I, too, once denied my preference for Donna Summer (and Pianoteq), till someone special opened my eyes and showed me that there was nothing to be ashamed of; that dancing to Donna’s “Hot Stuff” did not make me any less of a macho-man!

So go ahead, macho-men, dance to Donna and play Pianoteq to your heart’s content; it’s okay; ye can come out of the closet now, and I promise, society shall not condemn ye!

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Originally Posted by propianist
I've just had a brilliant idea - Modartt developers, I hope you are reading this...!!!!!!!!

Many years ago, it was me, propianist, who suggested to Niclas Fogwall about making the parameter edits note by note using a "graphic equalizer" with 88 sliders, rather than single global control, and this idea was successfully adopted into Pianoteq Pro.

Here's my new idea...

The Sound Recording mode allows almost infinite variable positioning of the virtual mics, any position in virtual 3D space (X,Y,Z coordinates and aiming any orientation angle.)
More importantly, the same 3D freedom is allowed for the virtual "headphones" in binaural model.

Now, those of you who've ever tried a Sony PlayStation PSVR or Oculus Rift virtual reality headset, will know that you experience a much more convincing illusion of tangible 3D "reality" from the live head motion-tracking virtual reality experience, than you ever feel before from simply looking at flat "fixed" 3D stereoscopic photographs, or holograms, or even a "moving but still fixed" 3D stereoscopic video (like watching 3D Blu Ray) although it's motion video with a changing viewpoint perspective, your own natural human head movements (the way you instinctively interact with the world around you) have no effect on the "fixed" perspective the director is showing you in the 3D movie. Without that sensory feedback loop you still remain disconnected from the truly convincing immersive experience.

Now, suppose there was a way of combining live head-tracking for your stereo headphones as you play Pianoteq in binaural mode, whereby the movements of your own head could be mapped and applied in real time to reposition the virtual "headphones" of Pianoteq's binaural sound recording 3D modelling of the acoustic environment. Then, I believe, the grand piano would "appear" before you as an almost tangible 3D sound source. As you lean in closer, things get louder, as you bend to the right or left, you hear the treble or bass keys more closely. You could even stand up from your stool and lean forward putting you head inside the lid, over the strings and hammers, like you can with a real grand piano (lid open) and hear their vivid brightness, feel their proximity.

I think the same user experience quantum leap up going from "fixed" stereoscopic 3D photos and video, to totally immersive motion-tracked 3D stereoscopic virtual reality, could be an equally impressive quantum leap forward in the "sonic virtual reality" and our holy grail quest of trying to reproduce the feeling and sonic experience of sitting in front of a Steinway D concert grand piano.
I now think, lack of head motion tracking, is probably the stumbling block why playing digital pianos always feels fake, whereas real acoustic pianos actually exist in front of you.
Pianists play with huge expression and body language, rolling their torso and shoulders around, wild head movements, etc. - we're hardly ever sitting still, static and locked in one place. Our ears therefore perceive an ever changing stereoscopic sound perspective, which even with binaural HRTF recordings is not captured by one stationary fixed mic position.

This idea is not easy to implement and test, because obviously the required hardware is not commonplace.
Beyerdynamic Headzone Pro was on manufacturer's attempt at head-tracking headphones, but I can't think of many others... (off the top of my head, haha)
...although millions of people (including pianists like me) already do own VR headsets like PSVR and the 3D stereo Playstation cameras which connect via USB. Maybe we can use or adapt the existing hardware somehow? Perhaps the host computer could use a 3D camera like that and track motion if people stuck a few high-vis stickers onto their headphones(!) or perhaps you could just use your PSVR or Oculus headset while you play Pianoteq, and to that end, it would be great to have a 3D rendered Steinway D image in front of you too!

I'm sure this is the way forward, folks.
There are people out there who do know a lot about VR and head tracking and the cameras and technology for VR. It wouldn't take much genius to apply the same tech to a stereo audio only experience, with motion tracking of the virtual binaural piano model that Pianoteq already has. The question is, can the Pianoteq 3D coordinate parameters be manipulated live in real-time without causing audible glitches? Does Pianoteq need to pause and recalculate a new mathematical model for each new 3D position? Or could it just track the motion (perhaps using some 3rd party hardware that could turn the motion tracking into a stream of MIDI data which feeds Pianoteq's parameters, and maybe update the position 25 times a second (every 40ms) like video 25fps can fool the eye, maybe 25fps positional data update can fool the ear too, and Pianoteq could somehow update the maths model every 40ms with new positional data, or smoothly morph between the data values?

I'm sure this is the way forward, somebody needs to look into it, please... it's gotta be worth someone building a prototype and seeing how it feels to play a virtual piano with Virtual Binural Reality.

propianist


Further to this, for those interested...

It is already possible in Pianoteq to assign MIDI controllers for all three of the X, Y, Z coordinates for the virtual headphone position - just right-click on the movable headphone graphic (Pianoteq > Sound Recording > Mode = Binaural ) on the viewer and you get a pop-up for the X, Y, Z values to each learn any MIDI controller.
You can also assign another MIDI controller to "Head angle" which is the 360 degree rotation, again by right-clicking the relevant arrow on the icon.
And also there is "Head diameter (cm)" which I didn't even know about, which is the virtual width between the ears - also MIDI assignable.

I've tried all these MIDI controllers from my Kawai MP8, successfully assigning 4 hardware knobs and mod wheel, it everything works as expected.

Only caveats are...

1. Moving one hardware knob requires the use of your hand (can't play piano with 2 hands) so for hand adjustment of a single X or Y or Z parameter, you might as well just use that same hand instead to mouse drag the position around, because in fact mouse dragging controls 2 dimensions simultaneously rather than just one and is more physically intuitive action.

2. Pianoteq Head Angle appears to be a flat 360 rotation only, and lacks the ability to tilt head looking up at ceiling or down at floor. That would I guess require Modartt to update the model.

This all seems promising, but there's still no easy way I know how to animate these MIDI parameters using head-tracking.

There are some 3rd party head-tracking hardware devices available like Waves NX Bluetooth headtracker (appears to be either £79 or £58 on Thomann)...

https://www.thomann.de/gb/waves_nx_head_tracker_for_headphones.htm

https://www.thomann.de/gb/waves_nx_mix_room_head_tracker.htm

...which clips onto your headphones and allows their software Waves Virtual Mix Room 5.1 surround plugin to track 360 degree rotation, and apply I guess stereo HTRF and panorama adjustments in realtime, but I think that assumes you're always in the centre sweetspot rather than wandering around in the whole X-Y-Z listening area. Never had that product myself though.

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